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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 13 2012 17:18 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 17:14 GreatestThreat wrote:
The amount of terran whining in here is hilarious. I still remember the several months when zerg players were telling T to make ghosts in lategame and they complained they weren't a viable unit... lol. Guess it's time to make Ravens guys. How can you seriously complain when your race is so powerful there are units you haven't even needed to experiment with yet? Do you remember how a year ago, whenever any zerg complained about deathballs in ZvP, the protosses would tell them to "use Nydus"? I think Raven is the Terran nydus; that is, it's not very good, and any solution to the problem of lategame zerg deathballs will not involve it in any large fashion. Edit: Well, that's more than a bit of an exaggeration, but it is basically how I feel.
nyduses and ravens have both been experimented with, neither have ever produced fantastic results.
I dont know much about the conclusions of ravens, but I hear they are good when you have them, but its difficult to get them.
as for nyduses, the general conclusion is that its good for early allins where the purpose is to bypass the wall, but in lategame the following problems arise:
1. as for harrasment, why get nydus when ovy drop is cheaper and releases units a lot faster?
2. moving armies across the map quickly:
what should I move? plopping out zerglings 1 by 1 is not efficient, it literally goes faster to just move them where you want, broodlords would be the prime choice, but they cant enter nydus, the only thing worth transporting is ultralisks, and again, they are pretty fast already. also, they dont need to move to the fringes of the map quickly, zerglings can do that.
aka. the way I see it nydus can be good in 1 isolated environment: your enemy have at least 3 bases, prefeferably 4+, and you release ultras into his production facilities, this is good because there is no risk to lose the ultras, as they can retreat into the nydusworm almost immedietly other than that nydus worms are worse than the alternatives in every occasion.
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Raven is horrible because it costs so much gas that you need like 4 bases to actually use them. And Seeker Missile could be good but the problem is that the spell cast range is so freakin' small that the Raven will be killed before you can even launch the Missile. And I'm not sure about the numbers but can Infestor just Neural a Raven and use the Seeker Missile before Raven can? And when using Ravens, the Fungal is that pain in the ass because then it's pretty much over when the Fungal goes off. And ofcourse usually Seeker Missile does more damage to your own units than opponent's.
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Snipe nerf was long overdue. But better late than never.
Also just remove gold bases already.
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On February 13 2012 17:49 SiaBBo wrote:
Raven is horrible because it costs so much gas that you need like 4 bases to actually use them. And Seeker Missile could be good but the problem is that the spell cast range is so freakin' small that the Raven will be killed before you can even launch the Missile. And I'm not sure about the numbers but can Infestor just Neural a Raven and use the Seeker Missile before Raven can? And when using Ravens, the Fungal is that pain in the ass because then it's pretty much over when the Fungal goes off. And ofcourse usually Seeker Missile does more damage to your own units than opponent's.
The gas argument is just plain stupid - so I guess these zerg deathballs of brood lord/corruptor/infestor don't cost gas then? If you can make 20 ghosts you can make a handful of ravens.
Besides it's not seeker missile that matters here, it's PDD. They counter corruptor fire and prevent broodlings from even hitting the ground.
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On February 13 2012 17:56 GreatestThreat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 17:49 SiaBBo wrote:
Raven is horrible because it costs so much gas that you need like 4 bases to actually use them. And Seeker Missile could be good but the problem is that the spell cast range is so freakin' small that the Raven will be killed before you can even launch the Missile. And I'm not sure about the numbers but can Infestor just Neural a Raven and use the Seeker Missile before Raven can? And when using Ravens, the Fungal is that pain in the ass because then it's pretty much over when the Fungal goes off. And ofcourse usually Seeker Missile does more damage to your own units than opponent's. The gas argument is just plain stupid - so I guess these zerg deathballs of brood lord/corruptor/infestor don't cost gas then? If you can make 20 ghosts you can make a handful of ravens. Besides it's not seeker missile that matters here, it's PDD. They counter corruptor fire and prevent broodlings from even hitting the ground.
No it does not. It was nerfed while ago.
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They dont stop broodlings  Blizz fixed it some month ago. Otherwise it would be too easy^^
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What patch did they change that?? I don't remember reading it in patch notes.
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Might have been just hidden bug fix. It was never an intended feature.
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Just remember the time where terran were "planetary" all their bases exept the 1st expand. Where toss abused of photon on all their bases. Metagame is evolving into more and more greedy P and T that keep arguing that zerg is "too strong". Thank these people i can actually runby with zergling to kill a 4th or 5th base "orbitaled" with efficiency or a protoss third with two poor canon.
Blue flame is no longer used because of a stupid patch, but it still break your eco like hell, same for banshee cloack. Just watch stream and see that nobody use anymore what helped to keep the drone count low for zerg, while the zerg have no defense against this because we are also ridicoulously greedy.
Why no more Geiko three rax all in on zerg? It's still fucking retarded as hell, and you can still fake it and just out macro your opponent
The problem is not "balance" it's the way the metagame is going. People want to macro more to counter zerg macro potential (huge) but i don't think this is the way to do. Stop making 2+ orbital before 8 minute and go back to multi drop and harassment.
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On February 13 2012 15:00 Rorschach wrote:
I find your statement extremely hypocritical. On one hand you say the terran should stop trying to build a deathball of ghosts to deal with lategame zergs and just "get better" YET zergs want to get 80 drones and bld BL/deathball (the "I win" unit)???
Terran already have to micro their asses off to trade effceintly.
I am getting so sick of the irony of Z bitching about T and P a-moving to victory when zerg is the most a-move race outside of mutas and a few other units.....
I predict terran will start to do what us toss players do in PvZ, namely kill the zerg with a timing/2 base before they get up their superior deathball up.....
First of all, the deathball scenario should not be the go to scenario, it should be a culmination of hard work and a relative stand off. Secondly, the races are extremely different. Terran don't need 80 workers to do heinous damage, and zergs can't just attack into siege tanks. The medivac is worth getting just for the heals and add in the drop capabilities and you have an objective all game long.
As a Z I really don't like going for the Brolord/infester play. I would rather do muta/ling/bling until you leave but eventually a T can just overpower that army and not lose enough to make the lack of direct engagement power not worth it. Also, If you lost to a zerg going for brolord/infester, chances are you lost a long time ago and that is the only way the Z can actually just crush you. If you are even or ahead the army comps would favor you more (like him not being able to have enough infesters to stop the vikings or you having a ridiculous amount of ghosts/etc)
"Terran already have to micro their asses off to trade efficiently"- I would call this conjecture. Terran can micro and have extremely cost efficient units, but aside from basic stim and marine micro you don't have to do much to make your units cost efficient (this is like saying you have to keep your mutas away from marines/thors/turrets). Most would agree that Terran have the most cost efficient units in the game.
The only bitching I hear about as far as A-moving goes is the Protoss deathball... Which literally A-moves, not much more to say >.> Terran have to do a lot of positioning with tanks and a very methodical slow push, Zerg has to separate their units for them to have any real effectiveness. Also, Mutas are like the main Z unit. The other units we use regularly are the lings, blings and roaches, which are all relatively easy to use but still require micro to use effectively (pretty much all units benefit from micro aside from the thor need micro)
Hate to break it to you but most terran either cheese or do a 2 base all-in.
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Has anyone considered giving a range to Mules? I always find it annoying when a Terran has 10 workers to an opponent with 40 workers but continues to mine way more off a Planetary Fortress and pump an endless stream of Marines in a shaky late game.
This can also solve the problem of landing 3 Orbitals worth of Mules at a gold base without tampering with the resources mined. I admit it is a huge change and Blizzard is adamant on only making very slight changes in the patches.
I apologize for the half-whine about balance but it is a legitimate point.
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On February 13 2012 18:07 cywinr wrote:
Has anyone considered giving a range to Mules? I always find it annoying when a Terran has 10 workers to an opponent with 40 workers but continues to mine way more off a Planetary Fortress and pump an endless stream of Marines in a shaky late game.
This can also solve the problem of landing 3 Orbitals worth of Mules at a gold base without tampering with the resources mined. I admit it is a huge change and Blizzard is adamant on only making very slight changes in the patches.
I apologize for the half-whine about balance but it is a legitimate point.
you mean you can only use mules within a certain range of the orbitals?
or to make mules able to mine from a distance?
because the second would be retarded.
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On February 11 2012 02:37 Torte de Lini wrote:
Is the fleetbeacon idea good at all? It sounds like a great upgrade for Protoss, but isn't the fleet beacon a huge investment?
I don't know, someone tell me.
You know, because 30 mutalisk are free for the zerg player, how can Blizzard dare to allow the protoss to get the supreme anti air fighter for just 300/200?
Just play in advance, start with that fancy 1 starport BO which is so good against zerg, then if you see spire with your cloacked spy, just throw a beacon (just 100 more expensive than the spire itself) and when the zerg has enough mutas, you will have 6-8 chronobusted phoenix with range upgrade which will decimate their mutas or force them to build corruptors.
As a zerg player I'm happy with this patch. Stops protoss whining about mutas, stops the ghost lol rapetrain against zerg in late, and stops gold mule abusing.
Good job Blizz.
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Muta are only good because people stopped playing massively with phoenix harassment opening, once again metagame is talking. (badly)
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On February 13 2012 12:33 bearhug wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 11:51 emc wrote:On February 13 2012 10:43 vthree wrote:Think PHX upgrade might make them good vs. vikings? Stalkers are better counter to vikings due to blink and upgrades yea but we often see very little stalkers in PvT late-game because bio destroys stalkers so we usually see a LOT of chargelots with colossus and only a few stalkers. I think phoenix could be pretty sick in PvT with +2 considering that awhile ago terrans were saying that phoenix/colossus was unbeatable late game and with the additional range they should be able to do a lot more DPS to vikings rather just tank hits for colossus. and the ghost snipe nerf was actually a buff to the ghost as an anti-caster unit and that's clearly what blizzard wants the ghost to be. They don't want it to counter armies but rather to counter spell casters, hence why emp radius was reduced to make it less effective against armies and snipe was buffed to help snipe casters easier. Currently it requires 3 snipes to kill an infestor, 3 snipes to kill a ghost and 2 to kill a HT. With this buff, ghosts can now snipe infestors/ghosts/HT in 2 snipes which is less energy than an EMP. Snipe went from 45 biological to 50 vs. psionic which makes snipe a worthwhile ability against spell casters. here are stats of pre 1.4.3 and after 1.4.3 + Show Spoiler +Snipe info
Protoss
Zealot - 100 hp 50 sh (150 total)
Before: 4 snipes
After: 6 snipes
High Templar - 40 hp 40 sh (80 total)
Before: 2 snipes
After: 2 snipes
Dark Templar - 40 hp 80 sh (120 total)
Before: 3 snipes
After: 3 snipes
Terran
SCV - 45 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes
Marine - 45 hp -> 55 hp
Before: 1 snipe -> 2 snipes
After: 2 snipes -> 3 snipes
Marauder - 125 hp
Before: 3 snipes
After: 5 snipes
Reaper - 50 hp
Before: 2 snipes
After: 2 snipes
Ghost - 100 hp
Before: 3 snipes
After: 2 snipes
Zerg
Larvae - 25 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 1 snipe
Drone - 40 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes
Queen - 175 hp
Before: 4 snipes
After: 4 snipes
Zergling - 35 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes
Baneling - 30 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes
Roach - 145 hp
Before: 4 snipes
After: 6 snipes
Hydralisk - 80 hp
Before: 2 snipes
After: 4 snipes
Infestor - 90 hp
Before: 3 snipes
After: 2 snipes
Ultralisk - 500 hp
Before: 12 snipes
After: 21 snipes
Brood Lord - 225 hp
Before: 6 snipes
After: 10 snipes
Corruptor - 200 hp
Before: 5 snipes
After: 9 snipes
Overlord - 200 hp
Before: 5 snipes
After: 9 snipes
Overseer - 200 hp
Before: 5 snipes
After: 9 snipes
Mutalisk - 120 hp
Before: 3 snipes
After: 5 snipes all-in-all, I think snipe is a much better ability as it's now specifically meant for casters. You need to take into account of the shield/health regeneration: so 7 snipes to kill a zealot, not 6.
Shields don't regenerate mid combat.
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The Mule change is good, this maybe will stop the whining but the better way is to remove all gold paches.
The Snipe nerf is just a joke. How should Terran survive the Ultralisk switch after the 200/200 fight in split map situations? The tvz lategame is hard enough. The terran dont have an overall "ok" Unit like the Stalker which is never totally bad. Blindly building Marauders which are useless against anything except the Ultralisk?
With this patch i have to end the game on 2 vs 3 base or i have to be way better in the final engagement.
On 3 Attack upgrades the Auto-Attack makes more damage on standard light units than a 25 energy cast/spell. Just think about it.
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On 3 Attack upgrades the Auto-Attack makes more damage on standard light units than a 25 energy cast/spell. Just think about it.
Yeah i think about it i think it's stupid that a caster have such a dps.
But i agree with you, zerg just have to switch to gling bane again to counter again ghost and standard terran army. I'm just Low master, but never had such a problem, specially when terran pack their ghost : Fungal+ bane good bye 10+caster. The nerf is maybe a bit irrelevant, but it have to pass the PTR exam to be effective 
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On February 13 2012 19:02 USvBleakill wrote:
The Mule change is good, this maybe will stop the whining but the better way is to remove all gold paches.
The Snipe nerf is just a joke. How should Terran survive the Ultralisk switch after the 200/200 fight in split map situations? The tvz lategame is hard enough. The terran dont have an overall "ok" Unit like the Stalker which is never totally bad. Blindly building Marauders which are useless against anything except the Ultralisk?
That's a silly suggestion, but, why not scan (or scout somehow) after the engagement? That's not too far fetched, isn't it?
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On February 13 2012 19:02 USvBleakill wrote:
The Mule change is good, this maybe will stop the whining but the better way is to remove all gold paches.
The Snipe nerf is just a joke. How should Terran survive the Ultralisk switch after the 200/200 fight in split map situations? The tvz lategame is hard enough. The terran dont have an overall "ok" Unit like the Stalker which is never totally bad. Blindly building Marauders which are useless against anything except the Ultralisk?
With this patch i have to end the game on 2 vs 3 base or i have to be way better in the final engagement.
On 3 Attack upgrades the Auto-Attack makes more damage on standard light units than a 25 energy cast/spell. Just think about it.
There is certainly a new problem to overcome by terran.
But dont you think its also abit strange that one unit should be allowed to be the "wanted unit" to counter both end game of zerg and hinder infestors greatly
what i've been feeling is that terran can in some sense just get an army that let them get into late game.
then go "oh.. late game.. guess i'll build ghosts now to win"
i know its not that simple, but in many of the late game matches i've seen lately it allmost seem like the zerg gets into a mindset where he dont tech switch because its simply no point in doing so..
only hope seems to be when the zerg for some reason manage to get a pack of ghosts for free
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On February 13 2012 19:02 USvBleakill wrote:
The Mule change is good, this maybe will stop the whining but the better way is to remove all gold paches.
The Snipe nerf is just a joke. How should Terran survive the Ultralisk switch after the 200/200 fight in split map situations? The tvz lategame is hard enough. The terran dont have an overall "ok" Unit like the Stalker which is never totally bad. Blindly building Marauders which are useless against anything except the Ultralisk?
With this patch i have to end the game on 2 vs 3 base or i have to be way better in the final engagement.
On 3 Attack upgrades the Auto-Attack makes more damage on standard light units than a 25 energy cast/spell. Just think about it.
I would consider the Marine to be a much better "overall unit", in fact it is a great unit ^.^
I do agree that the snipe nerf is too much but I think that it's usability vs ultras AND brolords is too much. I would like to see 35 base damage +15 to light and psionic.
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EPT
