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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 14:23 SkimGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 13:21 Arkless wrote:On February 11 2012 12:40 Xorphene wrote:On February 11 2012 03:11 xTrim wrote:
overmake vikings = lose to f**king ultra switch... god i hate this, why do i keep playing? Stop feeling so nerfed, zerg's have suffered this forever. Overmake corruptors in ZvP and lose to gateway remax. Stop feeling so special, Terrans moaning about infestors vs vikings need to realise they simply need to split their marines. This is a fantastic patch. The most bias response, and most rediculous. Split your marines? Are you trolling? You negate the fact entirely as well that corruptors, the pre cursor to BL's, counter your bl counter of vikings. They just roll ur main army with ling bling, snipe off ur vikings, remax with bls. That doesn't seem weird???? NOW we also are hella nerfed if both are on golds, it hurts the terran to drop a mule period because of 0 bonus, you lose out in the end. Maybe Terran has to start thinking like Zerg now and take advantage of the fact that you can't win a head-on engagement, but your army is much more mobile and and can be stronger around the map instead of 1 big ball of units... i.e Stop deathballing and get better
I find your statement extremely hypocritical. On one hand you say the terran should stop trying to build a deathball of ghosts to deal with lategame zergs and just "get better" YET zergs want to get 80 drones and bld BL/deathball (the "I win" unit)???
Terran already have to micro their asses off to trade effceintly.
I am getting so sick of the irony of Z bitching about T and P a-moving to victory when zerg is the most a-move race outside of mutas and a few other units.....
I predict terran will start to do what us toss players do in PvZ, namely kill the zerg with a timing/2 base before they get up their superior deathball up.....
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Since when were Ultras considered useless? They have their place, and with fungals they wreck everything. The only time they are bad is when people don't know how to engage or micro them in the fact that they send them down narrow chokes with their hands in the air screaming that their T3 unit isn't insta winning them the game. Seriously, try it in a real scenario for once instead of listening to Idra just say that they are bad. They may be bad, but so are thors, but they have their place in the game and you don't see Terran screaming that they have no good T3 units. Oh wait, they don't. Funny how that works. Ghost nerf is not what is needed to fix the game.
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On February 11 2012 02:10 Alacast wrote:
Can someone please clarify for me what the psionic damage component is good/bad against? I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with that damage type. Thanks!
Psionic/Biological (snipe-able) = High Templar, Dark Templar Ghost, Queen, and Infestor
Non-bio psionics also include Archon, Mothership, Sentry, and Warp Prism
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United States7483 Posts
On February 13 2012 14:08 Exigaet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 13:56 Xequecal wrote:On February 13 2012 10:36 Whitewing wrote:
Phoenix are never going to really be a good choice to counter mutas, because of how easy it is for zerg to tech switch (or add in corrupters which annihilate phoenix), and phoenix have no usefulness past the early mid-game vs. zerg apart from dealing with mutas: they can't stop expansions, they can't kill buildings, they have a hard time killing a lot of drones for their investment (the energy limitation makes them far worse at it than almost any other fast unit in the game), and groups of them are very easily shut down by infesters, which zerg is going to make anyway.
Unless phoenix get absurdly good vs. mutas, to the point where you can kill 4 mutas per phoenix no problem in a straight up fight and still have phoenix left over, people won't use them because they have very little utility outside that role once zerg techs. Uh, 6 range phoenix will have 4 phoenix kill 40 mutas, they're faster than mutas and can shoot while moving, the mutas will never touch them. Right now if you try to chase down mutas with phoenix the Zerg can just turn them around and get volleys off before you can micro away because the range difference is only 1 and you can't react that fast. With a range difference of 3, it'll be a slaughter. Corruptors are a terrible idea against 6 range phoenix. The phoenix can run circles around your corruptor/muta ball picking off the mutas and not taking much damage themselves. The corruptors have to decelerate to actually fire which means their DPS against phoenix will be terrible, and you'll still be able to snipe the mutas off. I agree with everything here. Corruptors will definitely need a speed increase or Phoenix will need a slight speed decrease so they can't kite mutas indefinitely.
Firstly, no, corrupters will still be enough to chase the phoenix off. Secondly, if you've got 40 mutas, ignore the 4 phoenix and just target fire the buildings, sheesh. It's not like they kill mutas ultra godmode fast where 40 mutas die in 10 seconds to 4 of them.
And imagine that: phoenix will actually be good against the unit they are supposed to be good against after you build a fleet beacon and research an upgrade. That 10 minute fleet beacon timing is pretty scary huh?
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On February 13 2012 15:00 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 14:23 SkimGuy wrote:On February 11 2012 13:21 Arkless wrote:On February 11 2012 12:40 Xorphene wrote:On February 11 2012 03:11 xTrim wrote:
overmake vikings = lose to f**king ultra switch... god i hate this, why do i keep playing? Stop feeling so nerfed, zerg's have suffered this forever. Overmake corruptors in ZvP and lose to gateway remax. Stop feeling so special, Terrans moaning about infestors vs vikings need to realise they simply need to split their marines. This is a fantastic patch. The most bias response, and most rediculous. Split your marines? Are you trolling? You negate the fact entirely as well that corruptors, the pre cursor to BL's, counter your bl counter of vikings. They just roll ur main army with ling bling, snipe off ur vikings, remax with bls. That doesn't seem weird???? NOW we also are hella nerfed if both are on golds, it hurts the terran to drop a mule period because of 0 bonus, you lose out in the end. Maybe Terran has to start thinking like Zerg now and take advantage of the fact that you can't win a head-on engagement, but your army is much more mobile and and can be stronger around the map instead of 1 big ball of units... i.e Stop deathballing and get better I find your statement extremely hypocritical. On one hand you say the terran should stop trying to build a deathball of ghosts to deal with lategame zergs and just "get better" YET zergs want to get 80 drones and bld BL/deathball (the "I win" unit)??? Terran already have to micro their asses off to trade effceintly. I am getting so sick of the irony of Z bitching about T and P a-moving to victory when zerg is the most a-move race outside of mutas and a few other units..... I predict terran will start to do what us toss players do in PvZ, namely kill the zerg with a timing/2 base before they get up their superior deathball up.....
I'm worried about this as well. I get why Toss does the 2 base All-Ins, i don't like it as a fan, but I get it. I don't want to see TvZ turn into that.
And I'm really dissapointed as a fan of SC2 that the ghost may be relegated to an anti-caster unit in TvZ. The Ghost is a very high risk/high reward unit. It's very expensive, doesn't have a lot of HP, requires a lot of upgrades, and a lot of individual micro. If you get them out of position for 1 second, they can all be fungled and the game is over.
As compared to the BL which requires virtually no micro, is very hard to kill, and requires both a ton of preperation AND unit control to defend.
It's kind of funny in a way, Blizzard is saying "We don't like the fact that this very expensive, fragile, high skill unit; is so effective vs this no skill, hard to kill, flying death machine." I find it funny anyway. It's comical when you look at it like that.
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On February 13 2012 15:00 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 14:23 SkimGuy wrote:On February 11 2012 13:21 Arkless wrote:On February 11 2012 12:40 Xorphene wrote:On February 11 2012 03:11 xTrim wrote:
overmake vikings = lose to f**king ultra switch... god i hate this, why do i keep playing? Stop feeling so nerfed, zerg's have suffered this forever. Overmake corruptors in ZvP and lose to gateway remax. Stop feeling so special, Terrans moaning about infestors vs vikings need to realise they simply need to split their marines. This is a fantastic patch. The most bias response, and most rediculous. Split your marines? Are you trolling? You negate the fact entirely as well that corruptors, the pre cursor to BL's, counter your bl counter of vikings. They just roll ur main army with ling bling, snipe off ur vikings, remax with bls. That doesn't seem weird???? NOW we also are hella nerfed if both are on golds, it hurts the terran to drop a mule period because of 0 bonus, you lose out in the end. Maybe Terran has to start thinking like Zerg now and take advantage of the fact that you can't win a head-on engagement, but your army is much more mobile and and can be stronger around the map instead of 1 big ball of units... i.e Stop deathballing and get better I find your statement extremely hypocritical. On one hand you say the terran should stop trying to build a deathball of ghosts to deal with lategame zergs and just "get better" YET zergs want to get 80 drones and bld BL/deathball (the "I win" unit)??? Terran already have to micro their asses off to trade effceintly. I am getting so sick of the irony of Z bitching about T and P a-moving to victory when zerg is the most a-move race outside of mutas and a few other units..... I predict terran will start to do what us toss players do in PvZ, namely kill the zerg with a timing/2 base before they get up their superior deathball up.....
Funny how you say toss can do nothing about it. You obviously don't watch enough late game pvz with mothership + more then 3 bases. Super strong way stronger then infestor/bl/corruptor. Just found your post funny when toss has the strongest deathball in the game and yet you say zergs is "I win" ^^.
As for your comment on most A-move race outside of muta's. Will toss is A move race except for FF and blink stalkers lol. If anything though terran can never A move they definitely have the most micro.
Do I think they will figure out a way to deal with late game tvz? Possible, I know ravens haven't been expiremented much and just like when the ghost was considered bad and nobody used it, it will be messed around with and we'll know within a month or so if it really is awful or if its actually good.
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this patch is going to be good. the protoss phoenix, imo is not going to really make a difference. the cost of just getting the upgrade is insane and with so much money being spent to go down the tech path its goign to make airplay the tech the toss is going to be in for awhile. it might be cool to see some phoenix carrier shenanigans with the upgrade. phoenix might be able to hold of vikings from sniping carriers. :O.
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now that I see these patchnotes I really feel like blizzard does it right. They really adress the issues.
But with the APM/CPM change I kinda get the feeling that some desicions they made in the past were not their own. Like removing the losses shown. That strikes me as a typical Activision Call of Duty Kid change to bring morons to this game. Or the no LAN thing. There has been plenty of community feedback on those issues but blizz rarely ever comments on it and it will probably never change.
Looking forward to more blizzard and less activision.
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I like all changes, even thou i think Phoenixes will be a bit to powerfull now, but then again, after the flower fix they never really worked as they where suposed to so i guess they are back where they belong.
The snipe fix was not a slight nerf it was a gutting. Hovever old snipe was WAY to powerfull and something had to be done, so i am a bit mixed about that, needed a nerf, but i think they did it the wrong way, and no i dont know what they could have done.
;Mule change was needed a long time ago, good to see it changed. Making 60mineras every trip is just insane spceially when you can have 2 mules work on the same patch at the same time...
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Looks like lategame TvZ will soon be like lategame TvP - the T has to constantly scan/be aware of the P's (and now the Z's) exact composition to react accordingly. i.e. terran has to be sensitive to zerg/protoss compositional changes, not the other way round. I guess we'll just have to deal with this the same way - either play really aggressive so that we reach the lategame significantly ahead (if we reach the lategame at all), or give Z/P the power to punish T at the drop of a hat by altering compositions drastically in the lategame.
I really hope this patch makes top terrans go back to the drawing board, I'll be really interested to see what kind of solutions we'll come up with. Looking at Mvp's play (he's always said he find TvZ really hard lategame for basically this reason, oddly enough - see IM streams), it seems to revolve around controlling expansions, and through that the Z's composition (limiting gas income). It's absurdly hard to execute though 
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On February 13 2012 16:38 Slate wrote:Looks like lategame TvZ will soon be like lategame TvP - the T has to constantly scan/be aware of the P's (and now the Z's) exact composition to react accordingly. i.e. terran has to be sensitive to zerg/protoss compositional changes, not the other way round. I guess we'll just have to deal with this the same way - either play really aggressive so that we reach the lategame significantly ahead (if we reach the lategame at all), or give Z/P the power to punish T at the drop of a hat by altering compositions drastically in the lategame. I really hope this patch makes top terrans go back to the drawing board, I'll be really interested to see what kind of solutions we'll come up with. Looking at Mvp's play (he's always said he find TvZ really hard lategame for basically this reason, oddly enough - see IM streams), it seems to revolve around controlling expansions, and through that the Z's composition (limiting gas income). It's absurdly hard to execute though
Yea but the difference is that Z can switch from mass air to mass ground in a second, at least in TvP you can just keep going the same composition and hope for the best. Now your going to get stuck really fast trying to balance your vikings and rauders til you fall apart in TvZ
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so after this snipe nerf, how do you counter a huge BL/corruptor army? seems like before, snipe was the ONLY way to even somewhat deal with it.
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I don't see how ultras are horrible atm , other then their size . From BW they have 100 hp more, speed off the bat , more dps and splash damage . And HOTS will deal with them getting stuck with that burrow charge . I find the brrodlord/infestor into ultra/ling/bling switch the thing of nightmares for me even if i know its comming . But im an average player at best
Also, on the notion of Ghosts... I don't think blizzard is balancing here , i think it has more to do with the designers not liking what they see . Ghosts vs zerg t3 was a creative solution to a big problem , something the designers did not anticipate . But they WANT you to make marauders and vikings vs ultra and broodlord , and ghosts only against casters . But its their fault in the first place for making ghosts expensive and versatile.... 
The solution to the next patch TvZ is probably gonna be a timing attack or something... and i hate timing attacks, so limiting and so not fun
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The amount of terran whining in here is hilarious. I still remember the several months when zerg players were telling T to make ghosts in lategame and they complained they weren't a viable unit... lol. Guess it's time to make Ravens guys. How can you seriously complain when your race is so powerful there are units you haven't even needed to experiment with yet?
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United States13143 Posts
On February 13 2012 17:14 GreatestThreat wrote:
The amount of terran whining in here is hilarious. I still remember the several months when zerg players were telling T to make ghosts in lategame and they complained they weren't a viable unit... lol. Guess it's time to make Ravens guys. How can you seriously complain when your race is so powerful there are units you haven't even needed to experiment with yet?
Do you remember how a year ago, whenever any zerg complained about deathballs in ZvP, the protosses would tell them to "use Nydus"?
I think Raven is the Terran nydus; that is, it's not very good, and any solution to the problem of lategame zerg deathballs will not involve it in any large fashion.
Edit: Well, that's more than a bit of an exaggeration, but it is basically how I feel.
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when will be the patch up and running?
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On February 13 2012 16:02 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 15:00 Rorschach wrote:On February 11 2012 14:23 SkimGuy wrote:On February 11 2012 13:21 Arkless wrote:On February 11 2012 12:40 Xorphene wrote:On February 11 2012 03:11 xTrim wrote:
overmake vikings = lose to f**king ultra switch... god i hate this, why do i keep playing? Stop feeling so nerfed, zerg's have suffered this forever. Overmake corruptors in ZvP and lose to gateway remax. Stop feeling so special, Terrans moaning about infestors vs vikings need to realise they simply need to split their marines. This is a fantastic patch. The most bias response, and most rediculous. Split your marines? Are you trolling? You negate the fact entirely as well that corruptors, the pre cursor to BL's, counter your bl counter of vikings. They just roll ur main army with ling bling, snipe off ur vikings, remax with bls. That doesn't seem weird???? NOW we also are hella nerfed if both are on golds, it hurts the terran to drop a mule period because of 0 bonus, you lose out in the end. Maybe Terran has to start thinking like Zerg now and take advantage of the fact that you can't win a head-on engagement, but your army is much more mobile and and can be stronger around the map instead of 1 big ball of units... i.e Stop deathballing and get better I find your statement extremely hypocritical. On one hand you say the terran should stop trying to build a deathball of ghosts to deal with lategame zergs and just "get better" YET zergs want to get 80 drones and bld BL/deathball (the "I win" unit)??? Terran already have to micro their asses off to trade effceintly. I am getting so sick of the irony of Z bitching about T and P a-moving to victory when zerg is the most a-move race outside of mutas and a few other units..... I predict terran will start to do what us toss players do in PvZ, namely kill the zerg with a timing/2 base before they get up their superior deathball up..... I'm worried about this as well. I get why Toss does the 2 base All-Ins, i don't like it as a fan, but I get it. I don't want to see TvZ turn into that. And I'm really dissapointed as a fan of SC2 that the ghost may be relegated to an anti-caster unit in TvZ. The Ghost is a very high risk/high reward unit. It's very expensive, doesn't have a lot of HP, requires a lot of upgrades, and a lot of individual micro. If you get them out of position for 1 second, they can all be fungled and the game is over. As compared to the BL which requires virtually no micro, is very hard to kill, and requires both a ton of preperation AND unit control to defend. It's kind of funny in a way, Blizzard is saying "We don't like the fact that this very expensive, fragile, high skill unit; is so effective vs this no skill, hard to kill, flying death machine." I find it funny anyway. It's comical when you look at it like that.
I disagree with the bolded.
the rest is debatable.
lets say the ghosts do get fungaled, that does not mean they die, zerg has no way of denying energy, thus ghosts can always kill (and or emp) the infestors that are in range and avoid being chainfungaled, sure, they will be vulnerable for 4 seconds, but thats all. 4 seconds is a lot, but not so much that zerg easily can take advantage of it.
for example: speedlings, the fastest unit in the game, moves 3 units per second, thus they will need 3 seconds to close the gap of 9 range between the army and only 1 second is left of the ghosts snare, and this is if you instantly send your fastest units the instant you get the oppurtunity to fungal, and by the way, its impossible to know beforehand when you get the oppurtunity to fungal, thus this is practicly impossible.
tl.dr: getting fungaled rarely kills groups of ghosts.
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
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On February 13 2012 17:18 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 17:14 GreatestThreat wrote:
The amount of terran whining in here is hilarious. I still remember the several months when zerg players were telling T to make ghosts in lategame and they complained they weren't a viable unit... lol. Guess it's time to make Ravens guys. How can you seriously complain when your race is so powerful there are units you haven't even needed to experiment with yet? Do you remember how a year ago, whenever any zerg complained about deathballs in ZvP, the protosses would tell them to "use Nydus"? I think Raven is the Terran nydus; that is, it's not very good, and any solution to the problem of lategame zerg deathballs will not involve it in any large fashion. Edit: Well, that's more than a bit of an exaggeration, but it is basically how I feel.
good point. raven is not the answer and theorycrafting gets us nowhere. the tvz matchup will just revert back to kill zerg before 20 minute mark again.
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On February 13 2012 17:36 Terranist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 17:18 Elyvilon wrote:On February 13 2012 17:14 GreatestThreat wrote:
The amount of terran whining in here is hilarious. I still remember the several months when zerg players were telling T to make ghosts in lategame and they complained they weren't a viable unit... lol. Guess it's time to make Ravens guys. How can you seriously complain when your race is so powerful there are units you haven't even needed to experiment with yet? Do you remember how a year ago, whenever any zerg complained about deathballs in ZvP, the protosses would tell them to "use Nydus"? I think Raven is the Terran nydus; that is, it's not very good, and any solution to the problem of lategame zerg deathballs will not involve it in any large fashion. Edit: Well, that's more than a bit of an exaggeration, but it is basically how I feel. good point. raven is not the answer and theorycrafting gets us nowhere. the tvz matchup will just revert back to kill zerg before 20 minute mark again.
This line sort of contradicts itself though. You are theory crafting that the raven is useless. Terrans haven't really tried using them at all because up until now ghosts just countered the entire zerg lategame army on their own, or at least everything that didn't die to siege tanks.
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EPT
