EPTUnless phoenix get absurdly good vs. mutas, to the point where you can kill 4 mutas per phoenix no problem in a straight up fight and still have phoenix left over, people won't use them because they have very little utility outside that role once zerg techs.
Patch 1.4.3 - Preview Blog - Page 177
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
Unless phoenix get absurdly good vs. mutas, to the point where you can kill 4 mutas per phoenix no problem in a straight up fight and still have phoenix left over, people won't use them because they have very little utility outside that role once zerg techs. | ||
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RinconH
United States512 Posts
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
Think PHX upgrade might make them good vs. vikings? Stalkers are better counter to vikings due to blink and upgrades | ||
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Shyndashu
United States136 Posts
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On February 13 2012 10:41 RinconH wrote: Think PHX upgrade might make them good vs. vikings? No. Vikings range 9 so kiting is impossible. 1 on 1 phoenix already beat viking but not for cost so I'm not sure I totally agree that Phoenix are bad in the first place vs viking...just not optimal. | ||
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SharkZ
Bulgaria8 Posts
 After watching the last GSL matches and some MLG KR qualifiers I really need to rage post !!! So is that what we want from the ZvP matchup ???! The only thing that zerg is able to do againts mass Forcefields/gateway mid-game pushes is a TON of spines ?!? ... Really ? srsly ? Is that the way we want all the ZvP's to be played because since the best progamers decided that is that way to "deal" with Forcefields then something seems wrong here for me ... | ||
Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On February 13 2012 10:45 tdt wrote: No. Vikings range 9 so kiting is impossible. 1 on 1 phoenix already beat viking but not for cost so I'm not sure I totally agree that Phoenix are bad in the first place vs viking...just not optimal. phoenix are basically even with vikings cost for cost right now, I think. Seems like it's still probably not worth it. | ||
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
On February 13 2012 10:22 Conreik wrote: Do we all agree that the Snipe nerf should be like this : - Snipe does 50 dmg - 25 (or less) on massive ? I'd like to hear a code 'S' Terrans opinion on a 25dmg snipe ghost. Is it even worth paying 200/100 + cloak and energy upgrade for a unit that is no longer cost effecient vs Ultras and maybe/maybe not cost effecient vs BL's. There's already a risk associated with ghosts - if you lose them, your totally dead. The games over. With a 45dmg snipe that risk was worth it. the risk/benefit was still +. Is it worth the risk with a 25dmg snipe? And if it's no longer worth the risk to get the ghosts vs BL and Ultras, is it worth investing in ghost tech at all to counter infestors? TvZ is the best MU in the game and Blizzrd is about to throw a big wrench right into the middle of it. | ||
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On February 13 2012 10:52 mlspmatt wrote: I'd like to hear a code 'S' Terrans opinion on a 25dmg snipe ghost. Is it even worth paying 200/100 + cloak and energy upgrade for a unit that is no longer cost effecient vs Ultras and maybe/maybe not cost effecient vs BL's. Not Code S, but Thorzain has expressed the opinion that the snipe nerf is excessive. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 13 2012 10:52 mlspmatt wrote: I'd like to hear a code 'S' Terrans opinion on a 25dmg snipe ghost. Is it even worth paying 200/100 + cloak and energy upgrade for a unit that is no longer cost effecient vs Ultras and maybe/maybe not cost effecient vs BL's. There's already a risk associated with ghosts - if you lose them, your totally dead. The games over. With a 45dmg snipe that risk was worth it. the risk/benefit was still +. Is it worth the risk with a 25dmg snipe? And if it's no longer worth the risk to get the ghosts vs BL and Ultras, is it worth investing in ghost tech at all to counter infestors? TvZ is the best MU in the game and Blizzrd is about to throw a big wrench right into the middle of it. Not really. Zvt is an awesome match up but it isn't the super late late game that makes it the most exciting imo. Most exciting is mid game for me when there are lots of muta/ling/bane marine/tank with drops flying around everywhere. The late game with mass ghosts kind of made it frusterating to watch sometimes when 8 ultra's died in 5 seconds to ghosts or 7 broodlords died in 5 seconds to ghosts xD I do imagine at least for the first bit that terran might struggle late game but I won't be surprised if they don't either. Idk every patch that has a big nerf to terran like this, the kr terrans find another way to deal with it so I am not to worried about it. | ||
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IFgogogosu
15 Posts
[QUOTE]On February 13 2012 10:52 mlspmatt wrote: [QUOTE]On February 13 2012 10:22 Conreik wrote: Zvt is an awesome match up but it isn't the super late late game that makes it the most exciting imo. Most exciting is mid game for me when there are lots of muta/ling/bane marine/tank with drops flying around everywhere. The late game with mass ghosts kind of made it frusterating to watch sometimes when 8 ultra's died in 5 seconds to ghosts or 7 broodlords died in 5 seconds to ghosts xDit.[/QUOTE] ^ I agree as well. Watching a Terran mass ghost and go snipe happy feels anti climatic. It's like the game of position is replaced by one moment of micro. This is not a balance statement, but one of an avid viewer. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On February 13 2012 10:52 mlspmatt wrote: I'd like to hear a code 'S' Terrans opinion on a 25dmg snipe ghost. Is it even worth paying 200/100 + cloak and energy upgrade for a unit that is no longer cost effecient vs Ultras and maybe/maybe not cost effecient vs BL's. There's already a risk associated with ghosts - if you lose them, your totally dead. The games over. With a 45dmg snipe that risk was worth it. the risk/benefit was still +. Is it worth the risk with a 25dmg snipe? And if it's no longer worth the risk to get the ghosts vs BL and Ultras, is it worth investing in ghost tech at all to counter infestors? If the nerf goes through as it's planned, you'll essentially see ghost play reduced to just getting a handful to attempt to EMP or snipe infestors. The days of trying to mass snipe T3 armies will be gone, guaranteed. It'll be back to vikings for brood lords and marauders for ultras, with possibly some raven play mixed in. I know ravens were mentioned on SotG earlier today and qxc said he hadn't used them because of ghosts. While it's true that seeker missile does a lot of damage and is good against brood lords if you can get it off, the trouble is that the casting radius is so short that it's child's play for a zerg to drop a fungal on it and send that 200 gas down the drain. That's the primary weakness of the raven. Trying to use one in the middle of an engagement for PDD or HSM often means losing it because you have to practically fly into the middle of the enemy army to actually cast, exposing you to fungal or feedback. On the flip side though, if you could cast HSM at like 9-10 range, it would be stupidly powerful against practically everything. So I don't know what the solution is. For the record though, I'm not in favor of any nerf to snipe. I feel it's a necessary part of the Terran arsenal because the units you have to make to help combat Zerg's two T3 heavy hitters are totally useless against one or the other, and tech switching is quite difficult, especially in the face of Zerg's late instant remax ability. You need to have something that has a lot of general utility in that situation, otherwise you just get rolled. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On February 13 2012 10:43 vthree wrote: Stalkers are better counter to vikings due to blink and upgrades yea but we often see very little stalkers in PvT late-game because bio destroys stalkers so we usually see a LOT of chargelots with colossus and only a few stalkers. I think phoenix could be pretty sick in PvT with +2 considering that awhile ago terrans were saying that phoenix/colossus was unbeatable late game and with the additional range they should be able to do a lot more DPS to vikings rather just tank hits for colossus. and the ghost snipe nerf was actually a buff to the ghost as an anti-caster unit and that's clearly what blizzard wants the ghost to be. They don't want it to counter armies but rather to counter spell casters, hence why emp radius was reduced to make it less effective against armies and snipe was buffed to help snipe casters easier. Currently it requires 3 snipes to kill an infestor, 3 snipes to kill a ghost and 2 to kill a HT. With this buff, ghosts can now snipe infestors/ghosts/HT in 2 snipes which is less energy than an EMP. Snipe went from 45 biological to 50 vs. psionic which makes snipe a worthwhile ability against spell casters. here are stats of pre 1.4.3 and after 1.4.3 + Show Spoiler + Snipe info Protoss Zealot - 100 hp 50 sh (150 total) Before: 4 snipes After: 6 snipes High Templar - 40 hp 40 sh (80 total) Before: 2 snipes After: 2 snipes Dark Templar - 40 hp 80 sh (120 total) Before: 3 snipes After: 3 snipes Terran SCV - 45 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 2 snipes Marine - 45 hp -> 55 hp Before: 1 snipe -> 2 snipes After: 2 snipes -> 3 snipes Marauder - 125 hp Before: 3 snipes After: 5 snipes Reaper - 50 hp Before: 2 snipes After: 2 snipes Ghost - 100 hp Before: 3 snipes After: 2 snipes Zerg Larvae - 25 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 1 snipe Drone - 40 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 2 snipes Queen - 175 hp Before: 4 snipes After: 4 snipes Zergling - 35 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 2 snipes Baneling - 30 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 2 snipes Roach - 145 hp Before: 4 snipes After: 6 snipes Hydralisk - 80 hp Before: 2 snipes After: 4 snipes Infestor - 90 hp Before: 3 snipes After: 2 snipes Ultralisk - 500 hp Before: 12 snipes After: 21 snipes Brood Lord - 225 hp Before: 6 snipes After: 10 snipes Corruptor - 200 hp Before: 5 snipes After: 9 snipes Overlord - 200 hp Before: 5 snipes After: 9 snipes Overseer - 200 hp Before: 5 snipes After: 9 snipes Mutalisk - 120 hp Before: 3 snipes After: 5 snipes all-in-all, I think snipe is a much better ability as it's now specifically meant for casters. | ||
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dudecrush
Canada418 Posts
On February 13 2012 10:52 mlspmatt wrote: ^ I agree as well. Watching a Terran mass ghost and go snipe happy feels anti climatic. It's like the game of position is replaced by one moment of micro. This is not a balance statement, but one of an avid viewer. Completely agree. It's a let down when you see a pack of ultras just up and die to a handful of ghosts. I was to see gosu maruader kiting and skillful building placement (eg: the missile turret block around a CC). | ||
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
On February 13 2012 11:51 emc wrote: yea but we often see very little stalkers in PvT late-game because bio destroys stalkers so we usually see a LOT of chargelots with colossus and only a few stalkers. I think phoenix could be pretty sick in PvT with +2 considering that awhile ago terrans were saying that phoenix/colossus was unbeatable late game and with the additional range they should be able to do a lot more DPS to vikings rather just tank hits for colossus. and the ghost snipe nerf was actually a buff to the ghost as an anti-caster unit and that's clearly what blizzard wants the ghost to be. They don't want it to counter armies but rather to counter spell casters, hence why emp radius was reduced to make it less effective against armies and snipe was buffed to help snipe casters easier. Currently it requires 3 snipes to kill an infestor, 3 snipes to kill a ghost and 2 to kill a HT. With this buff, ghosts can now snipe infestors/ghosts/HT in 2 snipes which is less energy than an EMP. Snipe went from 45 biological to 50 vs. psionic which makes snipe a worthwhile ability against spell casters. here are stats of pre 1.4.3 and after 1.4.3 + Show Spoiler + Snipe info Protoss Zealot - 100 hp 50 sh (150 total) Before: 4 snipes After: 6 snipes High Templar - 40 hp 40 sh (80 total) Before: 2 snipes After: 2 snipes Dark Templar - 40 hp 80 sh (120 total) Before: 3 snipes After: 3 snipes Terran SCV - 45 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 2 snipes Marine - 45 hp -> 55 hp Before: 1 snipe -> 2 snipes After: 2 snipes -> 3 snipes Marauder - 125 hp Before: 3 snipes After: 5 snipes Reaper - 50 hp Before: 2 snipes After: 2 snipes Ghost - 100 hp Before: 3 snipes After: 2 snipes Zerg Larvae - 25 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 1 snipe Drone - 40 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 2 snipes Queen - 175 hp Before: 4 snipes After: 4 snipes Zergling - 35 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 2 snipes Baneling - 30 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 2 snipes Roach - 145 hp Before: 4 snipes After: 6 snipes Hydralisk - 80 hp Before: 2 snipes After: 4 snipes Infestor - 90 hp Before: 3 snipes After: 2 snipes Ultralisk - 500 hp Before: 12 snipes After: 21 snipes Brood Lord - 225 hp Before: 6 snipes After: 10 snipes Corruptor - 200 hp Before: 5 snipes After: 9 snipes Overlord - 200 hp Before: 5 snipes After: 9 snipes Overseer - 200 hp Before: 5 snipes After: 9 snipes Mutalisk - 120 hp Before: 3 snipes After: 5 snipes all-in-all, I think snipe is a much better ability as it's now specifically meant for casters. The ghost already countered spell casters with EMP and as CATZ stated earlier we've seen what late game TvZ looks like without ghosts. It's not realistic to pay for ghost tech to just counter Infestors, and upgrade Air units + the related infrastructure (Starports + addons) to counter Broodlords and pay for extra RAX to have the Marauders ready for Ultras. That's the problem Terran had before ghost play became popular. The ghost solved the problem. | ||
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
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Horseballs
United States721 Posts
On February 13 2012 12:03 dudecrush wrote: Completely agree. It's a let down when you see a pack of ultras just up and die to a handful of ghosts. I was to see gosu maruader kiting and skillful building placement (eg: the missile turret block around a CC). But it isn't as if ultras actually melt to ghosts, it takes a hell of a lot of snipes and a ton of ghost energy to demolish a pack of ultras - even with a 45 damage snipe. You say it is anticlimactic for the game to go all that way and for ghosts to do really well against T3. I say it is even more anticlimactic for terran to suddenly lose all the positioning he worked to get as soon as zerg gets some T3 on the field and terran doesn't have the right number of marauders/vikings. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On February 13 2012 10:47 SharkZ wrote: That patch was pretty good imo but I think at least one more thing REALLY needs to be changed After watching the last GSL matches and some MLG KR qualifiers I really need to rage post !!! So is that what we want from the ZvP matchup ???! The only thing that zerg is able to do againts mass Forcefields/gateway mid-game pushes is a TON of spines ?!? ... Really ? srsly ? Is that the way we want all the ZvP's to be played because since the best progamers decided that is that way to "deal" with Forcefields then something seems wrong here for me ... Forcefields are borked - they always have been. I think they're one of the most OP spells in the game. The problem is that Protoss needs them because they have no other option to deal with masses of units early on. They should have left in the reaver, or designed a better counter to early roaches - then you wouldn't need forcefields. As it stands now, they should be made destructible without having any auto-targeting priority. They should also have enough hp to serve a purpose early on but not be ridiculous mid/late game. One can only wish, though. I don't even play Protoss (I fucking hate the race) but I feel bad for P players because they appear to be playing a race that forces them into playing in such a manner that is either a) frustrating as hell for them or b) incites a lot of community hate. | ||
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bearhug
United States999 Posts
On February 13 2012 11:51 emc wrote: yea but we often see very little stalkers in PvT late-game because bio destroys stalkers so we usually see a LOT of chargelots with colossus and only a few stalkers. I think phoenix could be pretty sick in PvT with +2 considering that awhile ago terrans were saying that phoenix/colossus was unbeatable late game and with the additional range they should be able to do a lot more DPS to vikings rather just tank hits for colossus. and the ghost snipe nerf was actually a buff to the ghost as an anti-caster unit and that's clearly what blizzard wants the ghost to be. They don't want it to counter armies but rather to counter spell casters, hence why emp radius was reduced to make it less effective against armies and snipe was buffed to help snipe casters easier. Currently it requires 3 snipes to kill an infestor, 3 snipes to kill a ghost and 2 to kill a HT. With this buff, ghosts can now snipe infestors/ghosts/HT in 2 snipes which is less energy than an EMP. Snipe went from 45 biological to 50 vs. psionic which makes snipe a worthwhile ability against spell casters. here are stats of pre 1.4.3 and after 1.4.3 + Show Spoiler + Snipe info Protoss Zealot - 100 hp 50 sh (150 total) Before: 4 snipes After: 6 snipes High Templar - 40 hp 40 sh (80 total) Before: 2 snipes After: 2 snipes Dark Templar - 40 hp 80 sh (120 total) Before: 3 snipes After: 3 snipes Terran SCV - 45 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 2 snipes Marine - 45 hp -> 55 hp Before: 1 snipe -> 2 snipes After: 2 snipes -> 3 snipes Marauder - 125 hp Before: 3 snipes After: 5 snipes Reaper - 50 hp Before: 2 snipes After: 2 snipes Ghost - 100 hp Before: 3 snipes After: 2 snipes Zerg Larvae - 25 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 1 snipe Drone - 40 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 2 snipes Queen - 175 hp Before: 4 snipes After: 4 snipes Zergling - 35 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 2 snipes Baneling - 30 hp Before: 1 snipe After: 2 snipes Roach - 145 hp Before: 4 snipes After: 6 snipes Hydralisk - 80 hp Before: 2 snipes After: 4 snipes Infestor - 90 hp Before: 3 snipes After: 2 snipes Ultralisk - 500 hp Before: 12 snipes After: 21 snipes Brood Lord - 225 hp Before: 6 snipes After: 10 snipes Corruptor - 200 hp Before: 5 snipes After: 9 snipes Overlord - 200 hp Before: 5 snipes After: 9 snipes Overseer - 200 hp Before: 5 snipes After: 9 snipes Mutalisk - 120 hp Before: 3 snipes After: 5 snipes all-in-all, I think snipe is a much better ability as it's now specifically meant for casters. You need to take into account of the shield/health regeneration: so 7 snipes to kill a zealot, not 6. | ||
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Declination
36 Posts
On February 13 2012 12:33 bearhug wrote: You need to take into account of the shield/health regeneration: so 7 snipes to kill a zealot, not 6. Shields don't start regenerating until the unit stops taking damage, so it should actually be 6 snipes unless the T is really slow or I am mistaken on the mechanic. On an unrelated note but is there a reason why BCs with Yamato wouldn't be useful for lategame sniping of broodlords and ultralisks. Keeping them slightly behind the army would put them in position to yamato while still being covered from corruptors by the marines and/or vikings. And, they could dish out damage to lings trying to get in? Obviously this would take even longer to switch into than ghosts, but I feel like with scan T should basically know exactly when broodlords are about to come out. | ||
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