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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
i just wanna butt in here to agree with everything they said on SOTG about the patch.
- gold mule killed is good
- phoenix change is super late game where phoenix isn't ideal anyway, therefore won't really have much of an effect at all. it will have the same effect as having 2-3 cannons or 2-3 turrets, where it won't necessarily kill mutas but it might 'repel' them, but it'll be more expensive... i dunno
- snipe is overkill, especially the making snipe terrible against stuff where it's rarely used right now (marines, banes, mutas, zealots). 25 energy for 25 damage is not cost effective... it's comparable to a fungal growth or storm that hits max of 3 targets... crap
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On February 13 2012 07:50 light3 wrote:
What isn't terran already overpowered why is blizzard still buffing terran..
Lol.
Anyways, the phoenix change will be interesting. I can see how it might be a little bit unstable though. A player going mutas vs. phoenix is going to be dedicating a lot of his harass to killing the fleet beacon and preventing the upgrade. It seems like there's a limited window of time where phoenix can fight mutas effectively enough to prevent them to killing one building while defendeding everything else.
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On February 13 2012 07:57 TheDraken wrote:
sure, there are other strats, and obviously this is bordering theorycraft since zergs aren't just attacking with one unit. but i think it's a bit ridiculous that 1 unit can be so effective against so many units.
You mean like the Infestor? Zergs are allowed to have an all-rounder unit, but not Terrans, especially with their lategame troubles? Seems fair indeed...
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Yet another nerf to Terran. So glad I switched races and don't play as Terran anymore. I somewhat agree with the changes..but man, poor terrans...just patch after patch they get nerfed. Makes you wonder how Z or P ever won a game against Terran in the early days of Starcraft 2
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On February 13 2012 07:57 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 07:21 Adrenaline583 wrote:
I'm a zerg player. Snipe nerf and phoenix buff are overkill imo. Snipe is probably going to be way too ineffective against zerg now and phoenixes are probably going to be way too good against zerg now. are you serious? i highly doubt you're a zerg player for your main. toss had way too much trouble dealing with mutas. storm was highly effective dealing with them, but it was just too much of a bottleneck they had to go through to kill a zerg. phoenixes were kind of a dead end. a zerg can easily out produce a player going phoenix, and if he actually devotes his resources entirely to phoenix, i just throw down spores and tech switch to mass ling and kill him. the snipe change was needed. the ghost as it stands now is far too effective at being the terran's swiss army knife. it was ridiculously hard to find a game ending strategy as zerg when they had ghosts. i go infestor. i get EMP'd. i go broodlord. i get sniped to shit. i go ultra. i get sniped to shit. i go muta. i get sniped to shit. i go baneling. they all get 1 shotted to shit. all the while i have to be able to get to my expansions since any of them could get nuked by an invisible unit. can't spine them up either since ghosts outrange them. sure, there are other strats, and obviously this is bordering theorycraft since zergs aren't just attacking with one unit. but i think it's a bit ridiculous that 1 unit can be so effective against so many units. and i'm glad blizz realized it and made zerg tier 3 pay off a bit more for the investment it takes to get there.
Im master random.
In my opinoin the phoenix buff is irrelevent. I never go phoenix to counter muta. I feel like cannon+a high templar at every base is a pretty strong counter. Also since it comes from the fleet becon it is just not going to be helpful at the time you would need help vs mutalisk.
The snipe nerf is way to hard. What blizzard is saying with this nerf is "We only want snipe to be used on caster units." And if thats not what they expect thats what the change would do. Qxc just talked a lot about this on state of the game. It went along the lines of 50 damage- 20 massive. The numbers are irrelevant but you get the point. It lowers the blow to brood lords without making ghost useless vs everything else. I think snipe was strong, but I didnt feel it was that overpowered. I felt the matchup was already pretty balanced from both sides. Maybe ghost were too strong but the severity of the snipe nerf is too much. If anything they should be adding 2-4 snipes to kill brood lords and ultras not 10+ snipes.
The mule thing was kind of a long time coming I dont think anyone would argue that point. Im glad that gold bases can stay in the game this way though and maybe be added back into tournaments.
Also kind of minor, but Im so glad they are adding apm back into the game. It was really hard to gauge what you could do to get eapm up and I didnt like it. Also apm alert on sc2gears will work again  .
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I wish they would try 35 damage snipe before doing a cut it by half nerf.
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On February 13 2012 08:05 jaebigdong wrote:
Yet another nerf to Terran. So glad I switched races and don't play as Terran anymore. I somewhat agree with the changes..but man, poor terrans...just patch after patch they get nerfed. Makes you wonder how Z or P ever won a game against Terran in the early days of Starcraft 2
Go back 12 months, and zerg practically didn't win against Terran. :p Granted that had alot to do with the broken map pool, but every little change helps.
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On February 13 2012 08:05 jaebigdong wrote:
Yet another nerf to Terran. So glad I switched races and don't play as Terran anymore. I somewhat agree with the changes..but man, poor terrans...just patch after patch they get nerfed. Makes you wonder how Z or P ever won a game against Terran in the early days of Starcraft 2
With the 30ish DPS Collosus and 40ish DPS Void Rays? 
Can't believe people already forgot about the first 12 or so patches filled with protoss nerfs and so many other back and forth huge changes.
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On February 13 2012 06:09 bundo wrote:
The ghost was strong vs ultras and broodlords and infestors, and zergs QQ when all their broodlords get sniped and then they remax on ultra and that gets sniped too. If a terran makes 25 ghosts thats alot of supply that will do shit against for example zerglings. You can tech swtich into like 3 or 4 bls then mass ling bane and deal with the ghost tank army alot better
Yes if that terran somehow forgot that before massing ghosts he needs to get some marines and tanks into his compostion (which do excellent against zerglings). Throw in a scan or two to see the tech switch and things get even more difficult.
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The easiest fix would have been to give snipe a three second cooldown. That means the first broodlord falls quickly, but then it takes time and gives the zerg the chance to eliminate the ghosts.
Also to the poster above:
Tanks are really detrimental vs ling. They don't hold on their own and they do more damage to your marines/ghosts that to the lings. Tanks are there to take out banes and that's it. After that, they can unsiege.
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On February 13 2012 08:19 mousepad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 06:09 bundo wrote:
The ghost was strong vs ultras and broodlords and infestors, and zergs QQ when all their broodlords get sniped and then they remax on ultra and that gets sniped too. If a terran makes 25 ghosts thats alot of supply that will do shit against for example zerglings. You can tech swtich into like 3 or 4 bls then mass ling bane and deal with the ghost tank army alot better Yes if that terran somehow forgot that before massing ghosts he needs to get some marines and tanks into his compostion (which do excellent against zerglings). Throw in a scan or two to see the tech switch and things get even more difficult.
Before ghost, terran was on a timing bomb. Letting zerg get more than 6 or 7 BLs with appropriate cover ( corruptor / infestors in enough number ) was autolose not matter the economy or the army you had.
There's a point where Viking don't deal with BLs anymore. They are the short time anwser while getting the Ghost.
If the game drag on too much, you can start a Raven fleet that work better than the Ghost. But you definitly can't go viking into ravens.
Even if ravens are very good, it take a stupid amount of time to mass an operational fleet, and it usualy happen only because ghost create a stalemate for players to get the perfect army.
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Really glad to see every pro player on SOTG tonight (1P, 1Z and 1T) all say the snipe nerf was a really bad move.
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On February 13 2012 08:26 Thrombozyt wrote:
The easiest fix would have been to give snipe a three second cooldown. That means the first broodlord falls quickly, but then it takes time and gives the zerg the chance to eliminate the ghosts.
Also to the poster above:
Tanks are really detrimental vs ling. They don't hold on their own and they do more damage to your marines/ghosts that to the lings. Tanks are there to take out banes and that's it. After that, they can unsiege.
... tanks detrimental vs lings? Without tanks you can just play upgraded lings with no banes and win ...
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On February 13 2012 07:48 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 07:24 Kyuki wrote:
I have to stop reading this thread... It's so scary reading all the terran whine and the bandwaggoning that comes with it. Even the posts that people seem to think have put alot of thought in them are just hidden whine-posts with absolutly no thoughtprocess behind what could be done differently. Not a single fucking one says that there needs be new ways of playing to explore and instead just throw around some hapless TC that they are oh-so-sure wont work just to justify their whine.
It's mindboggeling...
I really hope the crying won't be reason enough to not implement these changes, and I hope this will spur as a inspiration to other Terrans to be innovative when it comes to lategame compositions. Good ol' “all those who disagree [with me] are only whiners”. Thing is, instead of posting something as useless as you did, how about using real arguments? Care to answer this, for instance?
That post was exactly the type of posts I was refering to. You conceal your whine with some sort of idea as to why other options or solutions (like raven usage) wont work or have not been used. You even mention the easier access to ghosts compared to ravens as a reason (or rather you use time as a resource) why it's better to go ghost. You create this scenario you think is reasonable and absolute as to why you wont have time to make enough ravens and survive whatever magic the zerg throws at you.
Need I remind you that the mutalisk was never used in ZvP until quite recently. It was "risky" and it was just a bad unit vs toss. Things changed, but the unit stayed exactly the same. I'd argue that changes like this might spur creative players to find other ways to play the game, and that will happen, but just reading through this thread (and most patch threads) is just scary because people jump to sick conclusions sooo fast without even touching the game in the proposed state.
This has nothing to do with "those who disagree are wrong!" I just hate the crying. Grow some fucking balls and figure something else out.
Maybe HSM needs a range increase, maybe something else needs tuning, but overall for gameplay and design I think all of the changes to this patch are good.
Your points about the mule and the gold are really bad imho. Again you talk about how gas is not useful for Terran, or not AS useful for terran as the other races, which just indicates that you never tried to create very gas heavy lategame compositions and shouldnt really talk about them. You also ignore the fact that all structures cost minerals which gold minerals and mules will put your infrastructure in a lategame state just SO much earlier than the other races. Those things you just ingore. And how terran have slower production is just a false statement. It's almost as if you think protoss have unlimited energy and no cooldown on their warpgates, or zerg have unlimited sets of larvae.
All I can say is Meh!
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On February 13 2012 08:26 Thrombozyt wrote:
The easiest fix would have been to give snipe a three second cooldown. That means the first broodlord falls quickly, but then it takes time and gives the zerg the chance to eliminate the ghosts.
Also to the poster above:
Tanks are really detrimental vs ling. They don't hold on their own and they do more damage to your marines/ghosts that to the lings. Tanks are there to take out banes and that's it. After that, they can unsiege.
Good to know you don't play the same game as everyone else. Does make me wonder why you're commenting on a patch note for starcraft 2 though. I don't play terran or zerg, and even I know how important siege tanks are vs..well, everything in TvZ. The only instance where tanks do more damage unsieged is vs anything armored, but that excludes splash damage completely, so even then its more valuable sieged.
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On February 13 2012 08:41 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 08:26 Thrombozyt wrote:
The easiest fix would have been to give snipe a three second cooldown. That means the first broodlord falls quickly, but then it takes time and gives the zerg the chance to eliminate the ghosts.
Also to the poster above:
Tanks are really detrimental vs ling. They don't hold on their own and they do more damage to your marines/ghosts that to the lings. Tanks are there to take out banes and that's it. After that, they can unsiege. ... tanks detrimental vs lings? Without tanks you can just play upgraded lings with no banes and win ...
Until the opponent gets a critical amount of marines at which point he kills you 1v1.
Mass lings are the "counter" to lings. You need mass marines to head to head lings.
On February 13 2012 08:48 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 08:26 Thrombozyt wrote:
The easiest fix would have been to give snipe a three second cooldown. That means the first broodlord falls quickly, but then it takes time and gives the zerg the chance to eliminate the ghosts.
Also to the poster above:
Tanks are really detrimental vs ling. They don't hold on their own and they do more damage to your marines/ghosts that to the lings. Tanks are there to take out banes and that's it. After that, they can unsiege. Good to know you don't play the same game as everyone else. Does make me wonder why you're commenting on a patch note for starcraft 2 though. I don't play terran or zerg, and even I know how important siege tanks are vs..well, everything in TvZ. The only instance where tanks do more damage unsieged is vs anything armored, but that excludes splash damage completely, so even then its more valuable sieged.
It's because you don't play terran or zerg that you don't know how good lings are vs pure tank. The tanks are there to snipe banelings. Everything else is secondary. If the opponent has mass lings, you don't focus more on tanks, you spam out marines. A lack of marines and to many tanks = pure lings win.
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I am surprised that they actaully nerfed the mule. Never thought that. Blizzard must really love their gold bases.
on a side note:
I am puzzled why no mapmakers hasn't done any mineral only expo's ever so far. When you can mix in gold patches and make for different type of strats.
On the snipe I am a bit torned. I mean sniped were silly against ultras before but maybe they messed with it too much. Then again 1 marines beats 1 ultra so I don't know. Guess we will see.
The range for phoenix I don't care for no toss ever do more than 5 phoenix. They could perhaps buff the range of the graviton beam too.
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On February 13 2012 05:08 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 05:01 zmansman17 wrote:On February 13 2012 04:57 ZenithM wrote:On February 13 2012 04:45 Acritter wrote:On February 13 2012 04:41 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 13 2012 04:35 ZenithM wrote:
There is one thing I don't understand though. How come nobody is trying to switch to Terran? I'm starting now because top Terran players are cool and Terran is cool and (apparently) challenging. Isn't there anyone interested by some kind of Hard Mode of SC2? Does everybody only want free wins with as few APM as possible or what?
I don't think it's true and I think most Terrans who switched did so because of TvT. It's not easy to get around the fact that a macro TvT between non-top players can easily last more than 30 minutes. But maybe I'm wrong, is there a lot of people here that have switched from Terran because they think they weren't winning enough? Its a vastly different race so I think people get flustered very fast when trying to learn it. Trying to learn all of the micro is very challenging. Marine splitting/stutter stepping/dropping/siege tank leap frogging. Its also very hard to get in a mindset of ending the game earlier rather than relying on BL's or Colossus to do the job for you in the late game. On top of this people tend to not switch to the race that gets nerfed every patch. People tend to not switch race, PERIOD. Off the top of my head, I can think of three players who have switched races: Morrow, TLO, and Artosis. There isn't something deeper about the Terran race being so much more difficult, it's just that players don't usually do full-on race switches. I was actually talking about your mildy decent ladder player (diamond and higher), not pros. Why doesn't anyone try out Terran for the challenge? Do Terrans really want to switch to Protoss?As a Protoss, I can tell you that PvT is not funnier than TvP actually (it just wins more probably), I would say that playing macro is boring as hell against T. All that to say that I don't think difficulty is the reason why we see less Terrans on ladder. This simply isn't true. Of my friends list, many of my Rank 1-3 master and GM friends are really fed up with Terran. There are some that aren't going to continue play next season. There are some like me who will be switching to Toss completely. As for your claim that PvT is "not funnier" than TvP, I can actually tell you that I think PvT is very easy from the Protoss side. Granted, I may know how to play the MU really well since I main Terran (and offrace as Rank 2 Master Protoss), I don't see how Protoss have trouble with the MU. When I said "fun", I really meant fun, not easy. Don't worry, I have no particular complaint with playing PvT. It's just that the current optimal macro way (double forge turtle into your higher tier units) is, in fact, boring to play with, and play against (I assume).
Funny how all the terrans care about is how to win games with logitimate and stable stragegies while I see so many toss would just categorize this matchup "not fun" to play standard. Just wtf do you mean not fun? Is that the reason why half of the tvp games are still 1 or 2 base toss all in's when a stable 80% winrate is achievable after 20 minutes of safe play?
Anyways if this patch comes out, I will definitely make up my mind switching. What's the point of playing a game for fun but having to make 10 times the effort to reach same reward just because your race is nerfed constantly to balance out only for 32 players.
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On February 13 2012 08:48 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 08:26 Thrombozyt wrote:
The easiest fix would have been to give snipe a three second cooldown. That means the first broodlord falls quickly, but then it takes time and gives the zerg the chance to eliminate the ghosts.
Also to the poster above:
Tanks are really detrimental vs ling. They don't hold on their own and they do more damage to your marines/ghosts that to the lings. Tanks are there to take out banes and that's it. After that, they can unsiege. Good to know you don't play the same game as everyone else. Does make me wonder why you're commenting on a patch note for starcraft 2 though. I don't play terran or zerg, and even I know how important siege tanks are vs..well, everything in TvZ. The only instance where tanks do more damage unsieged is vs anything armored, but that excludes splash damage completely, so even then its more valuable sieged.
YOU DONT PLAY TERRAN OR ZERG, then stop making ignorant comments please!
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On February 13 2012 08:08 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 07:57 TheDraken wrote:On February 13 2012 07:21 Adrenaline583 wrote:
I'm a zerg player. Snipe nerf and phoenix buff are overkill imo. Snipe is probably going to be way too ineffective against zerg now and phoenixes are probably going to be way too good against zerg now. are you serious? i highly doubt you're a zerg player for your main. toss had way too much trouble dealing with mutas. storm was highly effective dealing with them, but it was just too much of a bottleneck they had to go through to kill a zerg. phoenixes were kind of a dead end. a zerg can easily out produce a player going phoenix, and if he actually devotes his resources entirely to phoenix, i just throw down spores and tech switch to mass ling and kill him. the snipe change was needed. the ghost as it stands now is far too effective at being the terran's swiss army knife. it was ridiculously hard to find a game ending strategy as zerg when they had ghosts. i go infestor. i get EMP'd. i go broodlord. i get sniped to shit. i go ultra. i get sniped to shit. i go muta. i get sniped to shit. i go baneling. they all get 1 shotted to shit. all the while i have to be able to get to my expansions since any of them could get nuked by an invisible unit. can't spine them up either since ghosts outrange them. sure, there are other strats, and obviously this is bordering theorycraft since zergs aren't just attacking with one unit. but i think it's a bit ridiculous that 1 unit can be so effective against so many units. and i'm glad blizz realized it and made zerg tier 3 pay off a bit more for the investment it takes to get there. Im master random. In my opinoin the phoenix buff is irrelevent. I never go phoenix to counter muta. I feel like cannon+a high templar at every base is a pretty strong counter. Also since it comes from the fleet becon it is just not going to be helpful at the time you would need help vs mutalisk. The snipe nerf is way to hard. What blizzard is saying with this nerf is "We only want snipe to be used on caster units." And if thats not what they expect thats what the change would do. Qxc just talked a lot about this on state of the game. It went along the lines of 50 damage- 20 massive. The numbers are irrelevant but you get the point. It lowers the blow to brood lords without making ghost useless vs everything else. I think snipe was strong, but I didnt feel it was that overpowered. I felt the matchup was already pretty balanced from both sides. Maybe ghost were too strong but the severity of the snipe nerf is too much. If anything they should be adding 2-4 snipes to kill brood lords and ultras not 10+ snipes. The mule thing was kind of a long time coming I dont think anyone would argue that point. Im glad that gold bases can stay in the game this way though and maybe be added back into tournaments. Also kind of minor, but Im so glad they are adding apm back into the game. It was really hard to gauge what you could do to get eapm up and I didnt like it. Also apm alert on sc2gears will work again .
Do you expect reasonable nerfs after all this time?
I was raging like mad, when I found out, that Blizz was planing to make 4gt useless in all MUs, just because it was dominant in PvP. And what did they end up doing? Thats right +20 sec to WG research.
They also reduced pylon power radius and vision up ramps. Was upping the WG research time by 20 sec really necessary when you consider the other to nerfs to 4gt? No. Do we ever see 4gt now? No. Protoss have no means of preventing a greedy zerg play in the early game, thats why you see so many 2 base all ins. If 4gt was still here, zergs would have to play more honest early, and toss could more comfortably play a macro game.
But lets dont kid ourselves, snipe was too good. However, you shouldnt expect Blizz to do the smart thing. YOu should expect them to nerf something in a way that not only fixes imbalance in one instance or a single MU, but also fucks up everything else.
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EPT
