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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 13 2012 10:36 Whitewing wrote:
Phoenix are never going to really be a good choice to counter mutas, because of how easy it is for zerg to tech switch (or add in corrupters which annihilate phoenix), and phoenix have no usefulness past the early mid-game vs. zerg apart from dealing with mutas: they can't stop expansions, they can't kill buildings, they have a hard time killing a lot of drones for their investment (the energy limitation makes them far worse at it than almost any other fast unit in the game), and groups of them are very easily shut down by infesters, which zerg is going to make anyway.
Unless phoenix get absurdly good vs. mutas, to the point where you can kill 4 mutas per phoenix no problem in a straight up fight and still have phoenix left over, people won't use them because they have very little utility outside that role once zerg techs.
While I do agree, I still think it's a good change. There's something fundamentally wrong with the idea that zerg can mass mutas against 2 stargate phoenix and still win without a tech switch if toss didn't blindly open 2 stargate phoenix.
I 2 base push every game in pvz now and it's the best decision I made in sc2. Dealing with muta pretty much sucks the joy out of sc2.
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On February 13 2012 12:41 Declination wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 12:33 bearhug wrote:
You need to take into account of the shield/health regeneration: so 7 snipes to kill a zealot, not 6. Shields don't start regenerating until the unit stops taking damage, so it should actually be 6 snipes unless the T is really slow or I am mistaken on the mechanic. On an unrelated note but is there a reason why BCs with Yamato wouldn't be useful for lategame sniping of broodlords. Keeping them slightly behind the army would put them in position to Yamato broodlords while still being covered from corruptors by the marines. And, they could dish out damage to lings trying to get in? Obviously this would take even longer to switch into than ghosts, but I feel like with scan T should basically know exactly when broodlords are about to come out.
BL/Corrupter/Infestor handles BC's really well with corrupters getting bonus damage vs massive or Zerg can upgrade neural parasite and own them. That's if terran had the time and money to invest into them , which they don't. It's not a viable option.
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On February 11 2012 08:20 Mikey wrote:
Phoenix change will hardly effect the pvz match up, fleet beacon 300/200 to purchase, then the upgrade, when do you even go fleet beacon on 2-3 base LOL.
I always get the fleet beacon on 3-base as I am taking my fourth (and sometimes 5th). I usually want to drop it by 18 minutes to deal with hive timing which usually comes between 17 and 22 in diamond. I get it up then so the Mothership has some time to make and accrue the energy for vortex.
I have to agree with those that have suggested that this phoenix change will act more as a deterrent than as a realistic transition for toss. It will cause a Z with 20 mutas to be discerning.
But I've become a lot more deficient in defending muta with blink/templar. I find that if my templar control is good, muta/ling is one of the easier Z comps to deal with. When the mx in or switch to roaches, it is a lot tougher.
Regarding snipe, time will tell. But I don't think Blizzard will allow a situation where T can't win late game against Z. If this change totally gimps T, something else will be tweaked.
And to all those people who keep citing the disappearance of T on ladder, those stats don't convince me that some mass extinction is underway.
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On February 13 2012 12:03 dudecrush wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 10:52 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 10:22 Conreik wrote:
Zvt is an awesome match up but it isn't the super late late game that makes it the most exciting imo. Most exciting is mid game for me when there are lots of muta/ling/bane marine/tank with drops flying around everywhere. The late game with mass ghosts kind of made it frusterating to watch sometimes when 8 ultra's died in 5 seconds to ghosts or 7 broodlords died in 5 seconds to ghosts xDit. ^ I agree as well. Watching a Terran mass ghost and go snipe happy feels anti climatic. It's like the game of position is replaced by one moment of micro. This is not a balance statement, but one of an avid viewer. Completely agree. It's a let down when you see a pack of ultras just up and die to a handful of ghosts. I was to see gosu maruader kiting and skillful building placement (eg: the missile turret block around a CC).
Which part of the end game Zerg army control is equally taxing? Attack moving the ultras?
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On February 13 2012 12:03 dudecrush wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 10:52 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 10:22 Conreik wrote:
Zvt is an awesome match up but it isn't the super late late game that makes it the most exciting imo. Most exciting is mid game for me when there are lots of muta/ling/bane marine/tank with drops flying around everywhere. The late game with mass ghosts kind of made it frusterating to watch sometimes when 8 ultra's died in 5 seconds to ghosts or 7 broodlords died in 5 seconds to ghosts xDit. ^ I agree as well. Watching a Terran mass ghost and go snipe happy feels anti climatic. It's like the game of position is replaced by one moment of micro. This is not a balance statement, but one of an avid viewer. Completely agree. It's a let down when you see a pack of ultras just up and die to a handful of ghosts. I was to see gosu maruader kiting and skillful building placement (eg: the missile turret block around a CC).
A "handful of ghosts" don't really kill ultras in the first place. It takes 12 snipes to kill an ultra, that's one a half ghosts in energy. All the ghosts do is support the ground army, they are no where near good enough or cost effective to kill ultras on their own.
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On February 13 2012 12:07 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 11:51 emc wrote:On February 13 2012 10:43 vthree wrote:Think PHX upgrade might make them good vs. vikings? Stalkers are better counter to vikings due to blink and upgrades yea but we often see very little stalkers in PvT late-game because bio destroys stalkers so we usually see a LOT of chargelots with colossus and only a few stalkers. I think phoenix could be pretty sick in PvT with +2 considering that awhile ago terrans were saying that phoenix/colossus was unbeatable late game and with the additional range they should be able to do a lot more DPS to vikings rather just tank hits for colossus. and the ghost snipe nerf was actually a buff to the ghost as an anti-caster unit and that's clearly what blizzard wants the ghost to be. They don't want it to counter armies but rather to counter spell casters, hence why emp radius was reduced to make it less effective against armies and snipe was buffed to help snipe casters easier. Currently it requires 3 snipes to kill an infestor, 3 snipes to kill a ghost and 2 to kill a HT. With this buff, ghosts can now snipe infestors/ghosts/HT in 2 snipes which is less energy than an EMP. Snipe went from 45 biological to 50 vs. psionic which makes snipe a worthwhile ability against spell casters. here are stats of pre 1.4.3 and after 1.4.3 + Show Spoiler +Snipe info
Protoss
Zealot - 100 hp 50 sh (150 total)
Before: 4 snipes
After: 6 snipes
High Templar - 40 hp 40 sh (80 total)
Before: 2 snipes
After: 2 snipes
Dark Templar - 40 hp 80 sh (120 total)
Before: 3 snipes
After: 3 snipes
Terran
SCV - 45 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes
Marine - 45 hp -> 55 hp
Before: 1 snipe -> 2 snipes
After: 2 snipes -> 3 snipes
Marauder - 125 hp
Before: 3 snipes
After: 5 snipes
Reaper - 50 hp
Before: 2 snipes
After: 2 snipes
Ghost - 100 hp
Before: 3 snipes
After: 2 snipes
Zerg
Larvae - 25 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 1 snipe
Drone - 40 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes
Queen - 175 hp
Before: 4 snipes
After: 4 snipes
Zergling - 35 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes
Baneling - 30 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes
Roach - 145 hp
Before: 4 snipes
After: 6 snipes
Hydralisk - 80 hp
Before: 2 snipes
After: 4 snipes
Infestor - 90 hp
Before: 3 snipes
After: 2 snipes
Ultralisk - 500 hp
Before: 12 snipes
After: 21 snipes
Brood Lord - 225 hp
Before: 6 snipes
After: 10 snipes
Corruptor - 200 hp
Before: 5 snipes
After: 9 snipes
Overlord - 200 hp
Before: 5 snipes
After: 9 snipes
Overseer - 200 hp
Before: 5 snipes
After: 9 snipes
Mutalisk - 120 hp
Before: 3 snipes
After: 5 snipes all-in-all, I think snipe is a much better ability as it's now specifically meant for casters. The ghost already countered spell casters with EMP and as CATZ stated earlier we've seen what late game TvZ looks like without ghosts. It's not realistic to pay for ghost tech to just counter Infestors, and upgrade Air units + the related infrastructure (Starports + addons) to counter Broodlords and pay for extra RAX to have the Marauders ready for Ultras. That's the problem Terran had before ghost play became popular. The ghost solved the problem.
there was a time when terrans were winning everything and weren't even using ghosts, how much different is it then from now? The biggest difference is zergs learned to defend crappy all-ins and 2 base timings, oh and the ghosts gas cost became cheaper, did you forget about that one? But if the terran is letting the zerg just get an infinite amount of resources then they deserve to lose. Realistically, when was the last time you saw an effective broodlord to ultra switch lately? I rarely see games go there, they either end way before that or end with broodlords either for zerg or terran victory. Ghosts can STILL emp which shockingly is strong against infestors which is your biggest enemy when facing broods/ultras. Terran STILL has vikings and marauders and by that point you should have 3/3 bio which destroy ultras and broods with enough kiting and positioning. I seriously don't believe that late game TvZ is dead and if you feel that way then just end the game before then and if you can't then you aren't very good at TvZ.
yeah and catz is the best zerg there is right? he's good don't get me wrong but people quote progamers all the time and they aren't always right.
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On February 13 2012 12:41 Declination wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 12:33 bearhug wrote:
You need to take into account of the shield/health regeneration: so 7 snipes to kill a zealot, not 6. Shields don't start regenerating until the unit stops taking damage, so it should actually be 6 snipes unless the T is really slow or I am mistaken on the mechanic. On an unrelated note but is there a reason why BCs with Yamato wouldn't be useful for lategame sniping of broodlords and ultralisks. Keeping them slightly behind the army would put them in position to yamato while still being covered from corruptors by the marines and/or vikings. And, they could dish out damage to lings trying to get in? Obviously this would take even longer to switch into than ghosts, but I feel like with scan T should basically know exactly when broodlords are about to come out.
Getting out a 400/300 unit that needs 150/150? for the core and another 2 upgrades to use Yamato just isn't possible. Especially when you consider the pathetic damage the normal attacks do. Also Neural if they push up or fungal so corruptors can take pot shots and marines can't help out.
I like the mule nerf. Definitely needed.
Really don't like the Ghost nerf and I don't even use ghosts late game TvZ. It just feels like terran is an all in race in 2/3 MU's. 45 was perhaps to much but 25 is a total fucking joke. Can't even one shot a worker... I always thought of Ghosts as the Bio T3 option (Thor is mech t3 BC is Air T3) Terran is now pretty much stuck on MMMTV
Phoenix nerf doesn't really address the problem I think in PvZ like it has been stated before phoenix are bad after mid game and have such a narrow role in the toss army it is pointless to have them en masse.
I think the source of the problem with terran being so strong early on but so weak later on compared to P/Z is because of the lack of good T3 options from T.
BC's are so bad. So much investment for so little almost on the level of the carrier with carrier slightly worse.
Thors are okay in certain situations but even the unit they are supposed to "hard counter" the muta have the magic box to shut them down.
Raven's auto turrets only deal 9 damage so armour really hurts them PDD is good in low number and HSM has too short of a range to be effective.
So terran has stronger early game options to hurt the other races but that is pretty lame game design imo.
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On February 13 2012 05:21 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 05:09 bovineblitz wrote:On February 13 2012 05:03 Snowbear wrote:
If you look at the winrates from terran you see them dropping VERY HARD when the games enters the 20 min mark. Since ghosts are used 99% of the time lategame (after the 20 min mark), blizzard nerfed terran lategame. Meanwhile terran lategame is so so so so so so bad. Yeah but Terran early and midgame is so so so so good. They pretty much define the flow of the game. If Terrans can't do enough damage with the tools they have, they have a tough lategame ahead of them. That doesn't seem like a terribly imbalanced thing to me, the race that controls the early flow should have to use that to their advantage to win. Lets talk TvZ. How excatly does terran control early-midgame? Zerg has this thing called creep, which is pretty good in TvZ. Zerg has more mobile units, which keeps terran defending, and still a stronger late game composition. Ling/bane/muta can basically stop anything, and control the game untill they get to hive. So where excactly are we supposed to take advantage of this? Also, it's just bad for the game that terran has to significant damage before the late game to have a chance to survive it.
It's also 'bad for the game' that Protoss has to defend defend defend defend unless they're doing an all in. That's kind of a silly thing to even say.
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On February 13 2012 13:08 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 12:07 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 11:51 emc wrote:On February 13 2012 10:43 vthree wrote:Think PHX upgrade might make them good vs. vikings? Stalkers are better counter to vikings due to blink and upgrades yea but we often see very little stalkers in PvT late-game because bio destroys stalkers so we usually see a LOT of chargelots with colossus and only a few stalkers. I think phoenix could be pretty sick in PvT with +2 considering that awhile ago terrans were saying that phoenix/colossus was unbeatable late game and with the additional range they should be able to do a lot more DPS to vikings rather just tank hits for colossus. and the ghost snipe nerf was actually a buff to the ghost as an anti-caster unit and that's clearly what blizzard wants the ghost to be. They don't want it to counter armies but rather to counter spell casters, hence why emp radius was reduced to make it less effective against armies and snipe was buffed to help snipe casters easier. Currently it requires 3 snipes to kill an infestor, 3 snipes to kill a ghost and 2 to kill a HT. With this buff, ghosts can now snipe infestors/ghosts/HT in 2 snipes which is less energy than an EMP. Snipe went from 45 biological to 50 vs. psionic which makes snipe a worthwhile ability against spell casters. here are stats of pre 1.4.3 and after 1.4.3 + Show Spoiler +Snipe info
Protoss
Zealot - 100 hp 50 sh (150 total)
Before: 4 snipes
After: 6 snipes
High Templar - 40 hp 40 sh (80 total)
Before: 2 snipes
After: 2 snipes
Dark Templar - 40 hp 80 sh (120 total)
Before: 3 snipes
After: 3 snipes
Terran
SCV - 45 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes
Marine - 45 hp -> 55 hp
Before: 1 snipe -> 2 snipes
After: 2 snipes -> 3 snipes
Marauder - 125 hp
Before: 3 snipes
After: 5 snipes
Reaper - 50 hp
Before: 2 snipes
After: 2 snipes
Ghost - 100 hp
Before: 3 snipes
After: 2 snipes
Zerg
Larvae - 25 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 1 snipe
Drone - 40 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes
Queen - 175 hp
Before: 4 snipes
After: 4 snipes
Zergling - 35 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes
Baneling - 30 hp
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes
Roach - 145 hp
Before: 4 snipes
After: 6 snipes
Hydralisk - 80 hp
Before: 2 snipes
After: 4 snipes
Infestor - 90 hp
Before: 3 snipes
After: 2 snipes
Ultralisk - 500 hp
Before: 12 snipes
After: 21 snipes
Brood Lord - 225 hp
Before: 6 snipes
After: 10 snipes
Corruptor - 200 hp
Before: 5 snipes
After: 9 snipes
Overlord - 200 hp
Before: 5 snipes
After: 9 snipes
Overseer - 200 hp
Before: 5 snipes
After: 9 snipes
Mutalisk - 120 hp
Before: 3 snipes
After: 5 snipes all-in-all, I think snipe is a much better ability as it's now specifically meant for casters. The ghost already countered spell casters with EMP and as CATZ stated earlier we've seen what late game TvZ looks like without ghosts. It's not realistic to pay for ghost tech to just counter Infestors, and upgrade Air units + the related infrastructure (Starports + addons) to counter Broodlords and pay for extra RAX to have the Marauders ready for Ultras. That's the problem Terran had before ghost play became popular. The ghost solved the problem. there was a time when terrans were winning everything and weren't even using ghosts, how much different is it then from now? The biggest difference is zergs learned to defend crappy all-ins and 2 base timings, oh and the ghosts gas cost became cheaper, did you forget about that one? But if the terran is letting the zerg just get an infinite amount of resources then they deserve to lose. Realistically, when was the last time you saw an effective broodlord to ultra switch lately? I rarely see games go there, they either end way before that or end with broodlords either for zerg or terran victory. Ghosts can STILL emp which shockingly is strong against infestors which is your biggest enemy when facing broods/ultras. Terran STILL has vikings and marauders and by that point you should have 3/3 bio which destroy ultras and broods with enough kiting and positioning. I seriously don't believe that late game TvZ is dead and if you feel that way then just end the game before then and if you can't then you aren't very good at TvZ. yeah and catz is the best zerg there is right? he's good don't get me wrong but people quote progamers all the time and they aren't always right.
Except there's also infestors + bane/sling... and the biggest problem is the fact that after the first wave the T has an incredibly hard time dealing with an instant remax tech switch. And yes, we have already seen what late game TvZ is without ghost... and it isn't pretty. What we have seen is that Z CAN deal with ghosts... so it's kind of hard to understand why Blizzard thinks it's a problem.
Ghosts were a soft counter so that you don't get wrecked by a tech switch. Still needed vikings/marauders/X to deal with the 'deathball'.
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On February 13 2012 06:37 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 05:09 bovineblitz wrote:On February 13 2012 05:03 Snowbear wrote:
If you look at the winrates from terran you see them dropping VERY HARD when the games enters the 20 min mark. Since ghosts are used 99% of the time lategame (after the 20 min mark), blizzard nerfed terran lategame. Meanwhile terran lategame is so so so so so so bad. Yeah but Terran early and midgame is so so so so good. They pretty much define the flow of the game. If Terrans can't do enough damage with the tools they have, they have a tough lategame ahead of them. That doesn't seem like a terribly imbalanced thing to me, the race that controls the early flow should have to use that to their advantage to win. Thats not imbalance, that just bad game design, pure and simple. Let me illustrate, if terran is indeed the one who control course of the game then, ultimately, when terran player reach certain level of skill, it would be impossible to win him with Zerg or Protoss, because he control the game and if he won't make any mistakes he will win 100%. Now lets imagine what is the alternative? Well, the alternative is that, if it is not possible for terran to control the game this way then, when Zerg or Protoss opponent is able to counter every thing terran throw at them till certain point in game, they will win 100% of time, so in this case it's a matter of Protoss or Zerg users reaching certain skill level, after which, they will become literally unbeatable against Terrans. Chose your pick which suits you most, I don't like either alternatives and would prefer game to be balanced at all times, so that all races had fair chances to win early, mid or late game.
I'm not really sure what you're saying here. When I say T controls the beginning, they can do any number of things that forces a response. The best example is banshees, it's the ultimate gameflow controller. If you don't have anything that can handle them it's gg. Proxy rax, 3rax, reactor hellion, 1-1-1... all are strong and not all can be scouted. The Terran is almost always the race that decides how much pressure to put on the opponent, not the other way around. They're much more proactive in the early/mid whereas both P and Z are generally much more reactive.
That's what I mean by 'controls the flow'.
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On February 13 2012 12:18 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 10:47 SharkZ wrote:That patch was pretty good imo but I think at least one more thing REALLY needs to be changed  After watching the last GSL matches and some MLG KR qualifiers I really need to rage post !!! So is that what we want from the ZvP matchup ???! The only thing that zerg is able to do againts mass Forcefields/gateway mid-game pushes is a TON of spines ?!? ... Really ? srsly ? Is that the way we want all the ZvP's to be played because since the best progamers decided that is that way to "deal" with Forcefields then something seems wrong here for me ... Forcefields are borked - they always have been. I think they're one of the most OP spells in the game. The problem is that Protoss needs them because they have no other option to deal with masses of units early on. They should have left in the reaver, or designed a better counter to early roaches - then you wouldn't need forcefields. As it stands now, they should be made destructible without having any auto-targeting priority. They should also have enough hp to serve a purpose early on but not be ridiculous mid/late game. One can only wish, though. I don't even play Protoss (I fucking hate the race) but I feel bad for P players because they appear to be playing a race that forces them into playing in such a manner that is either a) frustrating as hell for them or b) incites a lot of community hate.
Couldn't agree more with this post. It seems the protoss race is horribly flawed within this game. It just doesn't feel like an RTS race in a practical sense with warpgates and such rigid overall play.
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On February 13 2012 10:36 Whitewing wrote:
Phoenix are never going to really be a good choice to counter mutas, because of how easy it is for zerg to tech switch (or add in corrupters which annihilate phoenix), and phoenix have no usefulness past the early mid-game vs. zerg apart from dealing with mutas: they can't stop expansions, they can't kill buildings, they have a hard time killing a lot of drones for their investment (the energy limitation makes them far worse at it than almost any other fast unit in the game), and groups of them are very easily shut down by infesters, which zerg is going to make anyway.
Unless phoenix get absurdly good vs. mutas, to the point where you can kill 4 mutas per phoenix no problem in a straight up fight and still have phoenix left over, people won't use them because they have very little utility outside that role once zerg techs.
Uh, 6 range phoenix will have 4 phoenix kill 40 mutas, they're faster than mutas and can shoot while moving, the mutas will never touch them. Right now if you try to chase down mutas with phoenix the Zerg can just turn them around and get volleys off before you can micro away because the range difference is only 1 and you can't react that fast. With a range difference of 3, it'll be a slaughter.
Corruptors are a terrible idea against 6 range phoenix. The phoenix can run circles around your corruptor/muta ball picking off the mutas and not taking much damage themselves. The corruptors have to decelerate to actually fire which means their DPS against phoenix will be terrible, and you'll still be able to snipe the mutas off.
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On February 13 2012 13:56 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 10:36 Whitewing wrote:
Phoenix are never going to really be a good choice to counter mutas, because of how easy it is for zerg to tech switch (or add in corrupters which annihilate phoenix), and phoenix have no usefulness past the early mid-game vs. zerg apart from dealing with mutas: they can't stop expansions, they can't kill buildings, they have a hard time killing a lot of drones for their investment (the energy limitation makes them far worse at it than almost any other fast unit in the game), and groups of them are very easily shut down by infesters, which zerg is going to make anyway.
Unless phoenix get absurdly good vs. mutas, to the point where you can kill 4 mutas per phoenix no problem in a straight up fight and still have phoenix left over, people won't use them because they have very little utility outside that role once zerg techs. Uh, 6 range phoenix will have 4 phoenix kill 40 mutas, they're faster than mutas and can shoot while moving, the mutas will never touch them. Right now if you try to chase down mutas with phoenix the Zerg can just turn them around and get volleys off before you can micro away because the range difference is only 1 and you can't react that fast. With a range difference of 3, it'll be a slaughter. Corruptors are a terrible idea against 6 range phoenix. The phoenix can run circles around your corruptor/muta ball picking off the mutas and not taking much damage themselves. The corruptors have to decelerate to actually fire which means their DPS against phoenix will be terrible, and you'll still be able to snipe the mutas off.
I agree with everything here. Corruptors will definitely need a speed increase or Phoenix will need a slight speed decrease so they can't kite mutas indefinitely.
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It's a long thread, and I've only read a chunk of it, but, my $.02
Someone pointed out that the new snipe doesn't even kill a zergling. I was thinking it doesn't kill a marine, but the point is the same; Ghost openers based around snipe in TvT or TvZ, which were rare but doable, are now pointless. You could rush to cloak, but, why not get banshees instead then?
In a stream chat somewhere, someone suggested changing the nerf to 50 (-25vs massive), which still makes ghosts okay vs BLs but garbage vs ultras (though maybe with mass ghost + rebinding wheel move it'd be okay :D). I think that's the right thing to do, since blizzard has a design goal of "all units are viable at any point in the game where they can be built". They've listened on previous changes, so let's hope they're listening again.
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On February 13 2012 14:15 ZeroTalent wrote:
It's a long thread, and I've only read a chunk of it, but, my $.02
Someone pointed out that the new snipe doesn't even kill a zergling. I was thinking it doesn't kill a marine, but the point is the same; Ghost openers based around snipe in TvT or TvZ, which were rare but doable, are now pointless. You could rush to cloak, but, why not get banshees instead then?
In a stream chat somewhere, someone suggested changing the nerf to 50 (-25vs massive), which still makes ghosts okay vs BLs but garbage vs ultras (though maybe with mass ghost + rebinding wheel move it'd be okay :D). I think that's the right thing to do, since blizzard has a design goal of "all units are viable at any point in the game where they can be built". They've listened on previous changes, so let's hope they're listening again.
Perhaps if ultras weren't horrible right now then this would be fine. As it is right now, Broodlords are the only viable T3 unit, and currently they're too easily countered.
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On February 13 2012 14:08 Exigaet wrote:Phoenix may be more viable in stopping the 1/1/1 in PvT, however.
Not sure that's really possible ... you'd have to (a) scout the 1-1-1, (b) put down a fleet beacon, and (c) research the range upgrade before dying to two tanks, a banshee, a bunch of marines, and bunkers+SCVs to block the zealots. How is this supposed to work?
I mean, maybe you could blindly open 1gate-stargate on Xel'Naga and Arid Plateau, just because, but ...
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On February 13 2012 14:18 ZeroTalent wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 14:08 Exigaet wrote:Phoenix may be more viable in stopping the 1/1/1 in PvT, however.
Not sure that's really possible ... you'd have to (a) scout the 1-1-1, (b) put down a fleet beacon, and (c) research the range upgrade before dying to two tanks, a banshee, a bunch of marines, and bunkers+SCVs to block the zealots. How is this supposed to work? I mean, maybe you could blindly open 1gate-stargate on Xel'Naga and Arid Plateau, just because, but ...
Totally forgot it required the fleet beacon. I'll edit my post.
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On February 13 2012 12:54 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 12:41 Declination wrote:On February 13 2012 12:33 bearhug wrote:
You need to take into account of the shield/health regeneration: so 7 snipes to kill a zealot, not 6. Shields don't start regenerating until the unit stops taking damage, so it should actually be 6 snipes unless the T is really slow or I am mistaken on the mechanic. On an unrelated note but is there a reason why BCs with Yamato wouldn't be useful for lategame sniping of broodlords. Keeping them slightly behind the army would put them in position to Yamato broodlords while still being covered from corruptors by the marines. And, they could dish out damage to lings trying to get in? Obviously this would take even longer to switch into than ghosts, but I feel like with scan T should basically know exactly when broodlords are about to come out. BL/Corrupter/Infestor handles BC's really well with corrupters getting bonus damage vs massive or Zerg can upgrade neural parasite and own them. That's if terran had the time and money to invest into them , which they don't. It's not a viable option.
Yamato can take out corrupter even faster than Ghosts, one shots em, and infestors basically die instantly to BCs normal fire so NPing would be short lived with massed BCs. I think the problem, like with Carriers is massing them in the first place w/o dying.
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EDIT: nm, worthless post. I think the maps can be a problem lategame TvZ (favoring T, esp maps like Shak, Shattered Temple), and that's a bigger issue then ghosts. Ghosts as they are seem ok to me but I guess I'm just missing it.
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On February 13 2012 14:55 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 12:54 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 12:41 Declination wrote:On February 13 2012 12:33 bearhug wrote:
You need to take into account of the shield/health regeneration: so 7 snipes to kill a zealot, not 6. Shields don't start regenerating until the unit stops taking damage, so it should actually be 6 snipes unless the T is really slow or I am mistaken on the mechanic. On an unrelated note but is there a reason why BCs with Yamato wouldn't be useful for lategame sniping of broodlords. Keeping them slightly behind the army would put them in position to Yamato broodlords while still being covered from corruptors by the marines. And, they could dish out damage to lings trying to get in? Obviously this would take even longer to switch into than ghosts, but I feel like with scan T should basically know exactly when broodlords are about to come out. BL/Corrupter/Infestor handles BC's really well with corrupters getting bonus damage vs massive or Zerg can upgrade neural parasite and own them. That's if terran had the time and money to invest into them , which they don't. It's not a viable option. Yamato can take out corrupter even faster than Ghosts, one shots em, and infestors basically die instantly to BCs normal fire so NPing would be short lived with massed BCs. I think the problem, like with Carriers is massing them in the first place w/o dying.
do you seriously advise making bc vs corruptors? have you ever played terran at all ?
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EPT
