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Patch 1.4.3 - Preview Blog - Page 132

Forum Index > SC2 General
4449 CommentsPost a Reply
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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.

Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions.
Radison
Profile Joined January 2010
Poland44 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 11:16:42
February 11 2012 11:16 GMT
#2621
I also think, that maybe now terrans should experiment with other late game methods to counter BL / Ultras or maybe even some other buffs are needed to make late game more viable for them.
snorlax
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States755 Posts
February 11 2012 11:18 GMT
#2622
On February 11 2012 19:38 RRjr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 19:07 TigerKarl wrote:
We've seen Morrow use HSM against Brood Lords this week. Can't understand terrans crying about this change, without exploring all of their possibilites.

Yeah. People are also acting as if its becoming impossible to snipe broodlords. You can still do it and its still effective, but it'll take a few more ghosts or - god forbid - incorporating some other units to deal with this extremely costly Zerg T3. Furthermore snipe becomes even more effective against psionic so I really don't get the hate.

The worry about ultralisk tech switches I also don't get, seeing how Terran can easily scan to anticipate the switch and build tanks and marauders... two units who are still very efficient at dealing with Ultras.

The phoenix change sound nice. Though I wonder how feasible it'll be to afford the beacon plus upgrade in order to deal with mutas who are already out on the map. I feel that unless you open up stargate it won't be all that viable but then again what do I know ^_^


the fact that you site tanks as good against ultras shows you have not played any high level tvz, the problem with t3 tech switch from zergs is you need Vikings+marines+tanks to fight broods and marauders to fight ultras, you need to have different addons to produce the respective counter so after a fight its really hard to remax fast enough with the right comp for terran
roymarthyup
Profile Joined April 2010
1442 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 11:19:54
February 11 2012 11:18 GMT
#2623
as far as im concerned they can give HSM 10range and make it fly faster than pheonix. it wouldnt change anything because

HSM IS ALREADY OVERPOWERED and 6range on HSM is more than enough to use it in combat and make it 100x deadlier than fungal. but its pretty much needed to be so strong because it needs to be as strong as two fungals or two storms for its energy cost

terrans who complain about its 6range just have never tried it. trust me it will work the only downside is it costs 100gas starports to make a raven instead of 150 mineral barracks.

Terran really, start getting ravens instead of ghosts and at the normal times you would get ghosts. Abuse those 50energy last-forever turrets that are 100x better than infested terrans, get HSM, and use HSM instead of snipe on the broodlords. Trust me you will be pleasently suprised

however HSM doesnt counter ultras that well, but dont worry planetaries / marauders / tanks / marines do ok against those



but i still feel the snipe change is bad, mostly because it literally is now a pointless spell to cast as explained here

On February 11 2012 19:57 roymarthyup wrote:
one of the biggest problems with the snipe change is that snipe actually has like a 0.5 second "cooldown" and the ghost cannot attack/fire during that cooldown

with the new mousescroll wheel trick you can cast a bunch of snipes at once, however its still limited by the ghost snipe cooldown. also ghosts cannot do their normal DPS while chain sniping

so if snipe is made 25 energy for 25 damage, it wouldnt be THAT bad as long as the 0.5 second cooldown on snipe was removed. Not only that, but the 0.5 second cooldown on snipe should not effect the firing rate of ghosts, meaning if you A-MOVE a group of ghosts then hold down the snipe button and use the mousescroll trick, you could literally spam 100 snipes in 2 seconds while also not messing any of the ghosts autoattacks up. i guess if that was possible, the change wouldnt be so bad

however right now because snipe has like a 0.5 second cooldown AND the fact that you have to consume APM to use it AND the fact that when you use a snipe it RESETS the attack timer of ghosts resulting in less autoattack DPS, when you actually uses ghosts to snipe right now you are losing dps from their autoattack damage, and with a 25 damage snipe it probably becomes completely nonviable to even cast snipe as each bit of APM you use on snipe actually results in a minuscule amount of extra damage being created



i dont know what the solution to snipe is.... but making it 25 energy for 25 damage is basically just removing the spell completely

multiversed
Profile Joined December 2010
United States233 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 11:20:02
February 11 2012 11:19 GMT
#2624
it sounds like it's 2012 up in here. people be all over-reacting without thinking. they come up with all this defeatist crap and look like weak little betas. lemme give you a quick man lesson.

this patch will not change the matchup short of making TvZ less of a steamroll in the hands of a skilled terran who actually used ghost in the way in which they were intended to be used.

what you are doing right now is making an excuse for losing before you even start to play. it's embarrassing and you look ridiculous. i'd be more concerned with TvP to be honest, not that i play either of those races but i just don't think very many of you have much of any idea about which you speak.

respectfully, multi v esq.

now man the fuck up and we will welcome you back to reality.
Team Liquid is the used the tampon of the starcraft community.
Roblin
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden948 Posts
February 11 2012 11:19 GMT
#2625
On February 11 2012 19:09 SevenShots wrote:
how are you supposed to use a 6 range hsm vs 9range fungal and curroptors, if the zerg actually looks there?
hsm is not usable and way too expensive.
ive experimented with it a lot and in any case i always found other solutions to be better and way more cost efficient.


On February 11 2012 20:07 SevenShots wrote:
i did not say ANYTHING about corruptor range.
and the range of corrupors is completely irrelevant the moment your units are fungald and cant run away anyways.


no talking about corruptor range?
oh rly?

perhaps you meant (9range fungal) and (corruptors) but the way you wrote it implies 9range (fungal and corruptors) thus causing people to mistakenly believe you had the range wrong.
I'm better today than I was yesterday!
antilyon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Brazil2546 Posts
February 11 2012 11:20 GMT
#2626
On February 11 2012 20:08 RRjr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 19:41 S_SienZ wrote:
On February 11 2012 19:38 RRjr wrote:

The worry about ultralisk tech switches I also don't get, seeing how Terran can easily scan to anticipate the switch and build tanks and marauders... two units who are still very efficient at dealing with Ultras.


Yeah it's not like the Zerg can't afford to build an Ultralisk Cavern AND a Greater Spire at the same time right?

Also, it's not like Warpgates / Terran production where it needs to be slowly accumulated, and scoutable before it gets out of hand. Zergs can literally sac a BL based army and insta remax on Ultras. How you gonna scout that?

You're pretending that its easy business for Zerg to insta remax on Ultras. It's not. Use your insanely powerful dropships. Don't let his macro spiral to the point where he can afford to pull off such things. If you do, you deserve to lose. Bringing one unit to instantly obliterate whatever ultras / blords Zerg throws at you is not okay. Deal with it.

Welcome to Zerg / Toss land where you don't always get the get out of jail free card.

Because I'm terran I got be ok with a ticking time bomb strapped to my face that will explode if I let the game goes after 20 minutes? Sounds like a legitimate solution.
v3chr0
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States856 Posts
February 11 2012 11:21 GMT
#2627
I really like this patch, pretty cool. As far as snipe goes, considering thats the biggest change: i think it was necessary.

Ghosts are actually MORE effective against spell casters, which is their best role.
They also explained that Terrans should be more concerned about their Ghosts energy. I take it they want you to think about what you're sniping now, AND! just like blue flame, you don't need Snipe to fkin kill everything, if you unload snipes on important tough units, you soften them up a ton.

I think it's completely reasonable, mass Ghosts' snipe shouldn't be that powerful, it still will be very strong to have a lot of Ghosts, maybe people will be more tactical with their snipes now. Medivacing their ghosts to mineral lines, or flying them around like HT's to snipe stuff, idk, just takes a lot of the emphasis off going just Ghosts, which I like.
"He catches him with his pants down, backs him off into a corner, and then it's over." - Khaldor
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
February 11 2012 11:21 GMT
#2628
On February 11 2012 20:13 Radison wrote:
I really like the patch changes.

I think a lot of you guys are missing, that ghost patch change isn't only introduced to improve balance. It's introduced to improve gameplay. There was something wrong in MVP vs DarkForce game, where DarkForce had whole half of the map, was much more cost effective with BL and Nydus worms during the entire game, and for the last thousands of days MVP was just sitting on one highground main base on Shattered with only ghosts and DarkForce was too scared to attack him at all... I swear MVP had 0 APM for last ten minutes or so.

It's something wrong with the game, if a perfectly viable strategy consists of using 1 unit only which counters every zerg unit with snipe or bonus damage vs light (sometimes both - mutas...) or EMP.

Rock - paper - scissors is a perfectly balanced game. Coinflip as well. Starcraft is meant to be something more than just "a balanced game". Why do you think it has become so popular? Only because of balance?

And yes, there still is something wrong with how much more is toss, and especially zerg punished for not using their chrono / inject in time compared to terrans, who just lol's and drops a bunch of mules on fresh expansion after a fight to mine it in no time at all. Mules should have a cooldown or at least the total energy on OC should be lowered to... 75? Good change in gold minerals mining speed though.

If they are going for a gameplay improvement, they need to add something else they feel can take care of lategame, because as it stands, terran is struggling lategame. TvP lategame is a nightmare if you didn't win the midgame(as in if you _only_ came out even or even slightly ahead) and zerg lategame was surely not a walk in the park. They need to make raven more reliable, make it not take so long to tech to, make it better alone and not stack up so well.

About mules, I personally just don't care about the mule change. In reality all this changes is that a terran should never mule a gold base(well depends on situation mind, if you know you will loose the gold soon it's ofc worth it), since it's better to have those scvs mining at a higher rate for longer at the gold. However about how hard it is to do, well you reap what you sow, sure mules are really easy compared to inject/cb, but in reality, it is also a lot worse in macro games(5 cbs/1 inject going for workers means the mule advantage is equalled for the rest of the game)
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 11:22:59
February 11 2012 11:22 GMT
#2629

On February 11 2012 19:41 S_SienZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 19:38 RRjr wrote:

The worry about ultralisk tech switches I also don't get, seeing how Terran can easily scan to anticipate the switch and build tanks and marauders... two units who are still very efficient at dealing with Ultras.


Yeah it's not like the Zerg can't afford to build an Ultralisk Cavern AND a Greater Spire at the same time right?

Also, it's not like Warpgates / Terran production where it needs to be slowly accumulated, and scoutable before it gets out of hand. Zergs can literally sac a BL based army and insta remax on Ultras. How you gonna scout that?


lol. Don't pretend it's easy to max on BL then remax ultra. The eco it takes to do that means u wont see that happen, ever, say on a map like Shakuras. Maybe Terminus/Tal Darim you might get a situation where a Z can remax with that switch, but the thing youre complaining about isnt a huge concern. How often do you let you Z opponent get to max with ~3k/3k in the bank with 5/6 base? dont let that happen lol
TheCreepyTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden29 Posts
February 11 2012 11:22 GMT
#2630
Good, now terrans won't be able to kill infestor/bl/corrupter. I guess that ghosts were to strong, but seriously, it was the only way to kill zerg late. I honestly don't understand blizzards thinking right here, i mean, half the damage? BL/Corrupter/festor won't die now.
Torra
Profile Joined October 2011
Norway469 Posts
February 11 2012 11:22 GMT
#2631
On February 11 2012 20:13 Radison wrote:
I really like the patch changes.

I think a lot of you guys are missing, that ghost patch change isn't only introduced to improve balance. It's introduced to improve gameplay. There was something wrong in MVP vs DarkForce game, where DarkForce had whole half of the map, was much more cost effective with BL and Nydus worms during the entire game, and for the last thousands of days MVP was just sitting on one highground main base on Shattered with only ghosts and DarkForce was too scared to attack him at all... I swear MVP had 0 APM for last ten minutes or so.

It's something wrong with the game, if a perfectly viable strategy consists of using 1 unit only which counters every zerg unit with snipe or bonus damage vs light (sometimes both - mutas...) or EMP.

Rock - paper - scissors is a perfectly balanced game. Coinflip as well. Starcraft is meant to be something more than just "a balanced game". Why do you think it has become so popular? Only because of balance?

And yes, there still is something wrong with how much more is toss, and especially zerg punished for not using their chrono / inject in time compared to terrans, who just lol's and drops a bunch of mules on fresh expansion after a fight to mine it in no time at all. Mules should have a cooldown or at least the total energy on OC should be lowered to... 75? Good change in gold minerals mining speed though.

MVP still lost that game w/ 50+ ghosts. So what's ur point now zergs?
Dariusz
Profile Joined May 2011
Poland657 Posts
February 11 2012 11:23 GMT
#2632
Patch threads and win-rate statistic threads are the funniest threads to read.

MULEs now harvest the same amount of minerals on both high yield minerals and normal minerals.


Good change, and to make it complete they should add rocks on gold bases on Antiga and Metal, because it breaks PvZ. I've seen only one game won by P when Z takes early gold vs FFE and it was done by Squirtle who pulled of miracles fighting army that was twice the size of his army and winning engagements with insane blink micro and DT harass.

Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic

Direct nerf to MASS ghost. We'll have to see how the numbers work out in field. You can 2 snipe infestors now, down from 3 i think and it's fine considering it was 3 only because of regen and EMP radius nerf made if harder to emp infestors than templars. Change looks good, we'll see how it works out.

Phoenix now has a range upgrade at the Fleet Beacon

Perfectly fitting the current metagame. You need to get fleet beacon on 3 bases anyway vs mass muta due to double spire BL transition when zerg takes over the map. As long as mothership stays in the game, the change is good. Looking forward to testing it.

APM / CPM changes

Thanks blizzard, that's sweet of you.
Jumonji
Profile Joined May 2011
France60 Posts
February 11 2012 11:25 GMT
#2633
On February 11 2012 20:15 antilyon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 20:05 Sqq wrote:
I see all these Terrans whining. And I'm trying to figure out, what exactly are they complaining about ? The fact that ghosts where so strong again t3 (yes thats tier 3, the 'best of the best' zerg has to offer) that making them where almost pointless. Now they have to add a few more ghosts or have more energy before raining down hell. Can't believe Terran players think it was ok for a unit to totally smash the late game units Zerg has.

Did you ever saw how corruptors, a tier 2 unit smash a battlecruiser? Yes, that's tier 3, best of the best terran has to offer.
With 20 damage, snipe doesn't worth the required apm anymore and has almost no place outside of sniping casters. And this is just a lazy bad fix. I agree to the fact they were too strong but give a -10 or 15 against massive and they'll still be useful but just not so strong.

It's sad that blizzard is making it even more one dimensional: "If X make Y I'll counter with Z and Z only."
That phrase about making right houses to construct the right robots seem so convenient now.


Corruptor hard counter ONE unit (BC). Sqq point the fact that ONE terran unit (Ghost) hard counter THREE zerg unit way too easily (T2.5 and t3/t3). Nobody want to see rock paper scissor but it was just stupid to see king of ground and king of air raped by the same unit.

Beside that, i don't understand the phoenix buff: what the point making an unit with so many range that you just can't hit her? (even with corruptor). No micro here or anything like it..

Love the patch anyway sound good, just waiting for a new patch with a slight buff to zerg drop and nydus strats.
Thrombozyt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Germany1269 Posts
February 11 2012 11:26 GMT
#2634
Give raven a fusion core upgrade that makes them immune to spells and you will see them used.
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
February 11 2012 11:26 GMT
#2635
On February 11 2012 20:20 antilyon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 20:08 RRjr wrote:
On February 11 2012 19:41 S_SienZ wrote:
On February 11 2012 19:38 RRjr wrote:

The worry about ultralisk tech switches I also don't get, seeing how Terran can easily scan to anticipate the switch and build tanks and marauders... two units who are still very efficient at dealing with Ultras.


Yeah it's not like the Zerg can't afford to build an Ultralisk Cavern AND a Greater Spire at the same time right?

Also, it's not like Warpgates / Terran production where it needs to be slowly accumulated, and scoutable before it gets out of hand. Zergs can literally sac a BL based army and insta remax on Ultras. How you gonna scout that?

You're pretending that its easy business for Zerg to insta remax on Ultras. It's not. Use your insanely powerful dropships. Don't let his macro spiral to the point where he can afford to pull off such things. If you do, you deserve to lose. Bringing one unit to instantly obliterate whatever ultras / blords Zerg throws at you is not okay. Deal with it.

Welcome to Zerg / Toss land where you don't always get the get out of jail free card.

Because I'm terran I got be ok with a ticking time bomb strapped to my face that will explode if I let the game goes after 20 minutes? Sounds like a legitimate solution.


yeah pretty much. If you play T and chill @ base for 20 minutes its not looking good. on the other hand you have options to harass and do things off less than 200/200 so maybe explore that
Masq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1792 Posts
February 11 2012 11:27 GMT
#2636
On February 11 2012 20:19 multiversed wrote:
it sounds like it's 2012 up in here. people be all over-reacting without thinking. they come up with all this defeatist crap and look like weak little betas. lemme give you a quick man lesson.

this patch will not change the matchup short of making TvZ less of a steamroll in the hands of a skilled terran who actually used ghost in the way in which they were intended to be used.

what you are doing right now is making an excuse for losing before you even start to play. it's embarrassing and you look ridiculous. i'd be more concerned with TvP to be honest, not that i play either of those races but i just don't think very many of you have much of any idea about which you speak.

respectfully, multi v esq.

now man the fuck up and we will welcome you back to reality.



Really?

User was temp banned for this post.
HeliBadger
Profile Joined September 2011
538 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 11:28:21
February 11 2012 11:28 GMT
#2637
Does the phoenix buff mean the Tempest is out? Blizzard hates overlapping roles. Baneling+Lurker (out) , Firebat (out)+Hellion, vulture (out)+hellion ,etc

I hope so. The tempest isn't an exciting unit.

PENIX EXCITING UNIT
S_SienZ
Profile Joined September 2011
1878 Posts
February 11 2012 11:29 GMT
#2638
On February 11 2012 20:22 FallDownMarigold wrote:

Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 19:41 S_SienZ wrote:
On February 11 2012 19:38 RRjr wrote:

The worry about ultralisk tech switches I also don't get, seeing how Terran can easily scan to anticipate the switch and build tanks and marauders... two units who are still very efficient at dealing with Ultras.


Yeah it's not like the Zerg can't afford to build an Ultralisk Cavern AND a Greater Spire at the same time right?

Also, it's not like Warpgates / Terran production where it needs to be slowly accumulated, and scoutable before it gets out of hand. Zergs can literally sac a BL based army and insta remax on Ultras. How you gonna scout that?


lol. Don't pretend it's easy to max on BL then remax ultra. The eco it takes to do that means u wont see that happen, ever, say on a map like Shakuras. Maybe Terminus/Tal Darim you might get a situation where a Z can remax with that switch, but the thing youre complaining about isnt a huge concern. How often do you let you Z opponent get to max with ~3k/3k in the bank with 5/6 base? dont let that happen lol


The way you put it, makes it look more like a map problem to be honest. When was Shakuras EVER considered to not be Terran favoured in the match up?

And Mvp has allowed his opponents to get a huge bank many many times.
Cdtf
Profile Joined February 2012
France15 Posts
February 11 2012 11:29 GMT
#2639
Seriously, I feel so sad about it

I love to play Terran, but now I can't afford to pass the 12 minutes mark in both TvP and TvZ. No T3 anymore for us. At least, buff the BC

I think I'm gonna switch. Let's see, what is the worst mirror? PvP or ZvZ?


And Blizzard saying they are worrying about the low win ratio of low leagues Terrans. LOL.
"Impossible n'est pas Terran."
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
February 11 2012 11:29 GMT
#2640
On February 11 2012 20:16 Radison wrote:
I also think, that maybe now terrans should experiment with other late game methods to counter BL / Ultras or maybe even some other buffs are needed to make late game more viable for them.


Tank/Marine/Medivac + Marauder against Ultralisks
Tank/Marine/Medivac + Viking against Broodlords
Some Ghosts as Infestor counter (EMP, Snipe) and additional snipe damage against Broodlords. (Broodlords still die faster to snipe, than Ultralisks did before the patch - so everyone who considered the Ghost a Ultralisk counter up to now, can still at least consider it a Broodlord counter now)

The patch doesn't change that Ultralisks are a terrible unit in maxed vs maxed scenarios (due to their size and speed) against unprepared Terran armies (pure Tank/Marine/Medivac), as long as they are spread well and don't get killed by banelings and infestors.
The patch doesn't change that Infestors are needed for any Zerg lategame composition, which still can be countered by ghosts.
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