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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 14:18 canikizu wrote:
LoL at Ghost having to snipe 9 times to kill overseers. Good luck trying to emp or nuke or whatever to zerg.
No more late game T v Z nukes yay
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United States7483 Posts
On February 11 2012 15:01 MelodyBW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 15:00 Belha wrote:
Jesus, ENOUGH WITH THE GOLDS!!
Golds are still unbalanced in ZvP. How?
Protoss can't FE on a map with a gold vs. zerg, zerg just takes the gold base for free then gets a huge lead.
Protoss is pretty much the only race right now that can't benefit from a gold base. In the patch, it'll be protoss AND terran that can't benefit.
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On February 11 2012 12:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 12:14 Jormundr wrote:+ Show Spoiler +From : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309042This is taken from a sample size of 102 TvZ matchups Since this was taken from MLG Providence, I will assume that this sample is almost entirely representative of the top 2% of players (masters and grandmasters). This graph provides evidence that ghosts do not 'counter' tier 3 zerg. Considering the whole broodlord infestor vs ghost marine tank viking dance usually starts at or after 20 minutes, why were terrans not winning here? I am pretty sure that snipe efficiency was figured out pretty well this summer (when we first started to see MVP using it profusely, especially against ultralisk comps). So; Question: If ghosts are so strong, why didn't terrans have a positive win-rate after the 20 minute mark? Answer: Ghosts are incredibly expensive, and require tech lab rax instead of reactor rax (important in a marine dominated matchup) Ghosts actually happen to be the most expensive unit per supply in the terran arsenal (I would argue that 2 supply makes them too easy to mass in TvZ, but 3 supply would have too massive of an effect on TvP) For example, to build the scary ball of ghosts that "counters zerg t3" (as I have read over and over again in this thread) I will assume that they mean a ball of: 15 Ghosts 25 ghosts 3000 minerals 5000 minerals 1500 gas 2500 gas 30 supply 50 supply 120 to 200 seconds* 200 to 330 seconds* * note that the first value corresponds to the mad terran player who just happens to have 5 tech lab rax on hand. Second number is for a terran who has 3. 5 tech lab rax would be slightly unusual in a matchup that is marine dominated So without the ghost, what do you suggest to counter broodlord corruptor infestor? m̶a̶r̶i̶n̶e̶s̶ 1 full energy infestor can kill 35 marines, with enough energy left for two infested terrans. OVERPOWERED, I DON'T LIKE IT, COUNTERS TERRAN T1, NEEDS A NERF (etcetera) ̶t̶h̶o̶r̶s̶ 4 broodlords kill 4 micro'd thors with 2 full health broods left v̶i̶k̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ - 8 corruptors kill 8 vikings with 1 corruptor left (no micro, no corruption) b̶a̶t̶t̶l̶e̶c̶r̶u̶i̶s̶e̶r̶ - I tested 4 cruisers (24 supply, 1 arm, 1 leg,) vs 8 corruptors - 1 battlecruiser lives with 57/550 hp. SAVED r̶a̶v̶e̶n̶ - 13 ravens with HSM kill 8 broodlords (if you use 125 energy each) all of these were done with equal upgrades The problem is that broodlord + corruptor + infestor has a ridiculous advantage in the air battle already. corruptor broodlord is better than terran anti air in a straight up fight. Corruptors are also easier to produce en masse (see larvae) which gives them the ability to take momentum in the air battle much more quickly than a terran with 2-3 reactor ports. Also note that zerg air will generally have both armor and attack upgrades, whereas terran air will at best have attack upgrades, because there is no terran air endgame ball that is effective in tvz. TL;DR Without ghosts, terrans have no answer to zerg air superiority because - wait for it - ZERG AIR IS SUPERIOR Um no sorry vikings own everything in the air o.o Also keep in mind other factors will effect such a graph. For example, games where a terran does an all-in and fails but stays in the game past 20 minutes will make the graph look like what it is now. It could just be that a like event happens more than the opposite (a macro terran getting past 20 minutes)
You might want to factor in fungal growths when saying vikings own everything.
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there are alot more ways to win a game then turtle up and get 20ghosts to pew pew the whole army
if blizzard sees that zerg turtle is too strong then they nerf their deathball, i dont know why all the QQ is going on
weve been dominating the scene for nearly 2 years now i dont care when terran gets abit weaker for 1-2 patches, zergs had to deal with it the first half of sc2
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On February 11 2012 11:46 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 11:42 Vertical wrote:On February 11 2012 11:12 bucckevin wrote:On February 11 2012 11:01 Torra wrote:
So basically what all u zergs are saying is that nothing should be able to stop ur BLs, corruptor, infestor deathball? It's not even like once terran gets a few ghosts out, it's gg for u. And u need macro like MVP to reach those high ghost counts. Still, the zerg deathball trades decent with high ghost counts, and then u can remax with a lower tier compostition which is better vs. terran's ghost/viking. Ghosts does not COUNTER every zerg unit. They do very good vs. infestors and BLs, and still the zerg can trade ecually with u. Ghosts are acutally not that cost effective vs. ultras, marauders work better.
Maybe it could be zergs time to change up things if they think ghosts are a problem? But naaah, nerfing terran some more seems better when terran is already the weakest race in lategame.
I really don't see how zerg can lose w/ a deathball now. How are u supposed to take out BLs w/ corruptor and infestor support? Vikings are not cost effective enough, Ghosts were already hard to get enough of, what now? That's correct....... You let the zerg get to T3 and not kill them before 20 minute mark, you deserve to lose. You and your little T1 marines and T2 tanks shouldnt even be able to breath on zerg T3 units.(holding a straight face.) because our BC's is not as viable as those... zerg is the only race that has a viable T3 carrier, mothership, BC's all is only an overkill strategy PATCH 1.6.2 preview !!! TERRAN REMOVED FROM SC II !!! Colossi/HTs/Archons/Motherships are all t3. Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 11:43 KJSharp wrote:
High Diamond Terran Player.
I have been struggling mightily against Zerg in general. My win% against Z is around 35-40% in ladder games for the past 2 seasons. Essentially if the game goes longer than 18 minutes, I lost roughly 90% of the time. I believe my problem is largely due to the fact that I haven't gotten enough ghosts, but have invested heavily in marauders when my opponent went Ultralisk and vikings when my opponent went Brood lords. Then, when my opponent tech switched to the other, I was fucked and ended up losing. Over the past few weeks, I have been trying to incorporate ghosts into my late-game TvZ more. Now though, I don't see a point. Terran has no ability to "tech switch" as rapidly as Zerg. That's why the ghost was such a necessary unit - it was the only unit that would aid in the fight against both ultralisks and broodlords. Now, it seems, Blizzard is expecting Terran to tech switch as quickly as Zerg can.
In light of this patch, perhaps Blizzard needs to give Terran a fusion core upgrade that turns all tech labs and reactors into "tech reactors" like in the campaign. Then we could tech switch rapidly and have a chance against Zerg. I find it so unfair that if the Terran and Zerg have played an even match up until the 18 minute mark, that all of a sudden it becomes impossible for the Terran to win. Thanks Blizzard!
It is so sad. I logged on today and was playing a zerg friend, testing the new ladder maps Korhal Compound and Cloud Kingdom. I just couldn't bring myself to care about the game. Normally I'm on the edge of my seat, trying really hard, trying to win, but tonight I was just lethargic. I had to apologize to him because I could tell I wasn't giving him good games and was just wasting his time. The games just didn't seem worth playing. I play a macro style because that is the style the ladder maps intentionally encourage, but I don't think I can play macro games against Zerg anymore. Throughout the game, my heart just sank. I know the patch hasn't even come out yet, but it doesn't matter psychologically since I know it will come. If this change becomes permament, I suppose I'll have to change races or quit the game and move on to another game. I 've been waiting for a FPS game like UT2004 to come out, but none have. Oh well, one can only hope. You are diamond league. You have bigger problems to worry about besides balance. If terran was in such a bad shape right now, no terrans would be topping GM on the Korean server.
Who knows? The patch hasnt been out yet.
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Phoenix 6 range !!!!!!!!!!!!! sounds great 
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On February 11 2012 11:36 ShatterStorm wrote:
As far as EMP vs Storm is concerned, sure Storm will actually "kill" units where as EMP never will... but a Terran with enough medivacs and medivac energy can retreat from a storm, heal up and then head back in very quickly... it takes substantially longer for a Toss armies shields to replenish
Protoss reinforces much quicker with warp gates. And medivacs and ghosts dont have infinite energy.
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On February 11 2012 11:14 FinalForm wrote:
"it's lame how snipe can counter a tier 3 Zerg army"
well, maybe it's lame how Terran doesn't even have a viable tier 3 army
Before the patch Terran deathball was clearly strong and you cant say the don't have a good tier 3 army after patch because you haven't seen pro games played after the patch. Relax and see how it turns out before you jump to conclusions about how weak your race is.
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On February 11 2012 13:11 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 12:58 DemigodcelpH wrote:On February 11 2012 12:40 Xorphene wrote:On February 11 2012 03:11 xTrim wrote:
overmake vikings = lose to f**king ultra switch... god i hate this, why do i keep playing? Stop feeling so nerfed, zerg's have suffered this forever. Overmake corruptors in ZvP and lose to gateway remax. Stop feeling so special, Terrans moaning about infestors vs vikings need to realise they simply need to split their marines. This is a fantastic patch if you play Zerg. Your bias is showing. Enjoy your free 70-80% ZvT late game winrate as evidenced by the solid statistics in Jormundr's chart. This has been discussed to death already but you appear to be a little slow so I'll repeat it for you. A higher win rate in the late game is NOT evidence that Zerg have an advantage in that period of the game. When Terran gain a big enough advantage they win the game then and there or if they inflicted massive damage but lost most of their army they win it 2 minutes later. When Zerg completely crushes a Terran's two base timing attack and takes a third while getting a 25 worker lead, they win the game 10 minutes later because they lack the tools to win the game right away like Terran does have. In a 20 minute game a Zerg might have taken a decisive lead at the ten minute mark when the Terran botched a timing attack and fell 60 food behind. The earlier in the game you are analyzing the higher the precision with which you can gauge the balance of the match up for that particular moment. As you get into the late game certain patterns skew data and a lot of noise is introduced as players do not reach each stage of the game on equal footing. A significant number of games in ZvT reach the late game with Terran far behind because he made a timing attack that would decide the game earlier on, except instead of the game lasting the same relative length of time depending on who would win, if the Terran wins the game ends almost immediately, if the Zerg wins the game goes on a lot longer. Please stop quoting statistics you don't understand.
You, sir, have a very thick head. What the graph obviously shows is that the longer the game goes, the less likely a Terran is to win. This indicates that the claim that ghosts are overpowered late game against Zerg is highly suspect, since even when terrans reach the stage of the game when amassing ghosts is possible, they still lose. Sure, there are some games in which a player has lost and refuses to quit, but that does nothing to upset the general trend.
To prod you a little - If anything, your quibble indicates that Terrans have to win the game much faster than the graph shows. If Terrans are winning 55% of games that last 15 minutes but 35% of games that last 25 minutes, and we assume that sometimes players who have already lost the game stay in the game against all odds, then Terrans perhaps are winning 55% of games that last 14 minutes, and 35% of games that last 23 minutes. I don't believe that this is significant, but you using this point to counter what the graph explicitly tells us defies logic and just shows that you are committed to making it impossible for Terran to play a Starcraft II macro game.
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The gas cost of stargate or double stargate plus phoenix cost/min and the fleet beacon still means you need a third base just to afford an upgrade. Still nice to see some help. idk about carrier builds lol. They're still awful until like 200/200ish.
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Corruptor infestor are pretty good against vikings... maybe you should snipe the infestors?
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On February 11 2012 15:11 xUnSeEnx wrote:
Thank you, best post I have read so far. Make ghost snipe do less damage vs. massive units. That way I can still use ghosts effectively against infestor. O well, kinda no point in playing terran anymore (due to everything terran uses being nerfed and all the other races being buffed or un-punished for an "OP unit."
you can, infestors are psionic and will receive 50 damage from snipe
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On February 11 2012 15:32 KJSharp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 13:11 Ziggitz wrote:On February 11 2012 12:58 DemigodcelpH wrote:On February 11 2012 12:40 Xorphene wrote:On February 11 2012 03:11 xTrim wrote:
overmake vikings = lose to f**king ultra switch... god i hate this, why do i keep playing? Stop feeling so nerfed, zerg's have suffered this forever. Overmake corruptors in ZvP and lose to gateway remax. Stop feeling so special, Terrans moaning about infestors vs vikings need to realise they simply need to split their marines. This is a fantastic patch if you play Zerg. Your bias is showing. Enjoy your free 70-80% ZvT late game winrate as evidenced by the solid statistics in Jormundr's chart. This has been discussed to death already but you appear to be a little slow so I'll repeat it for you. A higher win rate in the late game is NOT evidence that Zerg have an advantage in that period of the game. When Terran gain a big enough advantage they win the game then and there or if they inflicted massive damage but lost most of their army they win it 2 minutes later. When Zerg completely crushes a Terran's two base timing attack and takes a third while getting a 25 worker lead, they win the game 10 minutes later because they lack the tools to win the game right away like Terran does have. In a 20 minute game a Zerg might have taken a decisive lead at the ten minute mark when the Terran botched a timing attack and fell 60 food behind. The earlier in the game you are analyzing the higher the precision with which you can gauge the balance of the match up for that particular moment. As you get into the late game certain patterns skew data and a lot of noise is introduced as players do not reach each stage of the game on equal footing. A significant number of games in ZvT reach the late game with Terran far behind because he made a timing attack that would decide the game earlier on, except instead of the game lasting the same relative length of time depending on who would win, if the Terran wins the game ends almost immediately, if the Zerg wins the game goes on a lot longer. Please stop quoting statistics you don't understand. You, sir, have a very thick head. What the graph obviously shows is that the longer the game goes, the less likely a Terran is to win. This indicates that the claim that ghosts are overpowered late game against Zerg is highly suspect, since even when terrans reach the stage of the game when amassing ghosts is possible, they still lose. Sure, there are some games in which a player has lost and refuses to quit, but that does nothing to upset the general trend. To prod you a little - If anything, your quibble indicates that Terrans have to win the game much faster than the graph shows. If Terrans are winning 55% of games that last 15 minutes but 35% of games that last 25 minutes, and we assume that sometimes players who have already lost the game stay in the game against all odds, then Terrans perhaps are winning 55% of games that last 14 minutes, and 35% of games that last 23 minutes. I don't believe that this is significant, but you using this point to counter what the graph explicitly tells us defies logic and just shows that you are committed to making it impossible for Terran to play a Starcraft II macro game.
u are totaly wrong and the guy uve quoted is right.
even in a tvt its hard to end the game immediatly after uve got an advantage cuz u cant engage in siegetanks ezpz. its just the nature of terran and the graphs are just useless and just attract dumb and ignorant people who dont think about the ressources they are reading.
and yes you can snipe infestors in 2snipes now everytime
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Alot of people aren't liking the snipe thing by the looks of it. I don't mind the snipe change because it's still decent against ultras and brood lords, and even just weakening those units is beneficial. On top of that, snipe does more damage to infestors (which is what I personally have the most trouble dealing with in TvZ)
Even better imo, is the extra damage against high templars in TvP, which is good, since storm dodging is usually what screws me up in TvP. In terms of people who don't like terran not having the greatest caster units, ravens are pretty good, especially if your against a deathball that's zealot/sentry/HT heavy.
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On February 11 2012 15:29 ChriseC wrote:
there are alot more ways to win a game then turtle up and get 20ghosts to pew pew the whole army
if blizzard sees that zerg turtle is too strong then they nerf their deathball, i dont know why all the QQ is going on
weve been dominating the scene for nearly 2 years now i dont care when terran gets abit weaker for 1-2 patches, zergs had to deal with it the first half of sc2
You don't even play Terran. So don't say "us terran", you aren't even one of us and pretending to be a Terran won't make your post any less bullshit. I can check you recent posts, in fact anyone can, so there's no point in denying it, it's there to see for everyone. Don't claim to be a Terran, we don't want you, we don't need you. Stick with zerg.
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So terrans are angry because they'll have to decide what units to make based on their zerg opponents late game composition rather than just being able to mass one unit that counters everything? Sorry if I'm not sympathetic- that's what a real RTS is supposed to be about- reacting to opponents compositions and counter reacting! This way we'll actually be able to see an interesting dance with vikings reacting to broodlords then marauders reacting to ultralisks with ghosts dualling with infestors rather than ghosts just stomping everything.
At tournament level terran has been the most successful race in the game since it was released- check the TLPD win rate graphs if you don't believe it. There is zero reason for all these histrionics right now.
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On February 11 2012 15:29 ThaSlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 12:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 11 2012 12:14 Jormundr wrote:+ Show Spoiler +From : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309042This is taken from a sample size of 102 TvZ matchups Since this was taken from MLG Providence, I will assume that this sample is almost entirely representative of the top 2% of players (masters and grandmasters). This graph provides evidence that ghosts do not 'counter' tier 3 zerg. Considering the whole broodlord infestor vs ghost marine tank viking dance usually starts at or after 20 minutes, why were terrans not winning here? I am pretty sure that snipe efficiency was figured out pretty well this summer (when we first started to see MVP using it profusely, especially against ultralisk comps). So; Question: If ghosts are so strong, why didn't terrans have a positive win-rate after the 20 minute mark? Answer: Ghosts are incredibly expensive, and require tech lab rax instead of reactor rax (important in a marine dominated matchup) Ghosts actually happen to be the most expensive unit per supply in the terran arsenal (I would argue that 2 supply makes them too easy to mass in TvZ, but 3 supply would have too massive of an effect on TvP) For example, to build the scary ball of ghosts that "counters zerg t3" (as I have read over and over again in this thread) I will assume that they mean a ball of: 15 Ghosts 25 ghosts 3000 minerals 5000 minerals 1500 gas 2500 gas 30 supply 50 supply 120 to 200 seconds* 200 to 330 seconds* * note that the first value corresponds to the mad terran player who just happens to have 5 tech lab rax on hand. Second number is for a terran who has 3. 5 tech lab rax would be slightly unusual in a matchup that is marine dominated So without the ghost, what do you suggest to counter broodlord corruptor infestor? m̶a̶r̶i̶n̶e̶s̶ 1 full energy infestor can kill 35 marines, with enough energy left for two infested terrans. OVERPOWERED, I DON'T LIKE IT, COUNTERS TERRAN T1, NEEDS A NERF (etcetera) ̶t̶h̶o̶r̶s̶ 4 broodlords kill 4 micro'd thors with 2 full health broods left v̶i̶k̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ - 8 corruptors kill 8 vikings with 1 corruptor left (no micro, no corruption) b̶a̶t̶t̶l̶e̶c̶r̶u̶i̶s̶e̶r̶ - I tested 4 cruisers (24 supply, 1 arm, 1 leg,) vs 8 corruptors - 1 battlecruiser lives with 57/550 hp. SAVED r̶a̶v̶e̶n̶ - 13 ravens with HSM kill 8 broodlords (if you use 125 energy each) all of these were done with equal upgrades The problem is that broodlord + corruptor + infestor has a ridiculous advantage in the air battle already. corruptor broodlord is better than terran anti air in a straight up fight. Corruptors are also easier to produce en masse (see larvae) which gives them the ability to take momentum in the air battle much more quickly than a terran with 2-3 reactor ports. Also note that zerg air will generally have both armor and attack upgrades, whereas terran air will at best have attack upgrades, because there is no terran air endgame ball that is effective in tvz. TL;DR Without ghosts, terrans have no answer to zerg air superiority because - wait for it - ZERG AIR IS SUPERIOR Um no sorry vikings own everything in the air o.o Also keep in mind other factors will effect such a graph. For example, games where a terran does an all-in and fails but stays in the game past 20 minutes will make the graph look like what it is now. It could just be that a like event happens more than the opposite (a macro terran getting past 20 minutes) You might want to factor in fungal growths when saying vikings own everything.
Factor in snipe now 2 shots infestors
edit: how many snipes can you get off in the time 1 fungal wears off
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Seriously why is it that Ts always get nerfed? I feel like I cannot see any reason to play T anymore....every time there is a patch they always get nerfed.
Like many people said, a snipe wont kill bling or zling. Something is wrong. Like Thorzain said, it takes 300 energy to kill 1 ultra. How is that too powerful? Ghost can be targeted, and if they cloak then they cannot kill ultra.
....Seriously Terran is always nerfed, I am not whining, its the truth.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 11 2012 15:41 Sylfyre wrote:
Alot of people aren't liking the snipe thing by the looks of it. I don't mind the snipe change because it's still decent against ultras and brood lords, and even just weakening those units is beneficial. On top of that, snipe does more damage to infestors (which is what I personally have the most trouble dealing with in TvZ)
Even better imo, is the extra damage against high templars in TvP, which is good, since storm dodging is usually what screws me up in TvP. In terms of people who don't like terran not having the greatest caster units, ravens are pretty good, especially if your against a deathball that's zealot/sentry/HT heavy.
19 snipes = decent?19 snipes = 475 energy(and tendonitis), you need to use at least 7 new ghosts with mobious reactor to kill an ultra, god damn these dramatic terrans, snipe is totally fine!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/114/zvt.png)
