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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
Great changes all around. I knew the phoenix range fix had to happen eventually. Glad Blizzard finally came around to likening the idea.
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lol @ people saying vikings are the best air unit in the game....seriously? They're paper thin and die soooo easily. Even in professional games before the mass ghost play was discovered, pro players with their great micro could not keep vikings alive vs infestor/corruptor, it's just so hard micro wise. It's absolutely brutal for us in lower levels 
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On February 11 2012 11:35 Amui wrote:
I don't like the way blizzard is approaching the ghost nerf. I like the fact that for 25 energy, a ghost can insta kill an unupgraded marine, zerg/baneling or worker unit(nonprotoss trololol). It makes some early somewhat gimmicky strategies very strong. Just have a -10 or -15 damage modifier to massive, and suddenly it's no longer as viable to mass ghosts and roll a zerg T3 army regardless of composition.
I agree. They should just change the ability to have a penalty on massive. I mean sniping a large armored target seems kinda weird thematically.
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On February 11 2012 14:23 SkimGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 13:21 Arkless wrote:On February 11 2012 12:40 Xorphene wrote:On February 11 2012 03:11 xTrim wrote:
overmake vikings = lose to f**king ultra switch... god i hate this, why do i keep playing? Stop feeling so nerfed, zerg's have suffered this forever. Overmake corruptors in ZvP and lose to gateway remax. Stop feeling so special, Terrans moaning about infestors vs vikings need to realise they simply need to split their marines. This is a fantastic patch. The most bias response, and most rediculous. Split your marines? Are you trolling? You negate the fact entirely as well that corruptors, the pre cursor to BL's, counter your bl counter of vikings. They just roll ur main army with ling bling, snipe off ur vikings, remax with bls. That doesn't seem weird???? NOW we also are hella nerfed if both are on golds, it hurts the terran to drop a mule period because of 0 bonus, you lose out in the end. Maybe Terran has to start thinking like Zerg now and take advantage of the fact that you can't win a head-on engagement, but your army is much more mobile and and can be stronger around the map instead of 1 big ball of units... i.e Stop deathballing and get better
When is a terran army ever more mobile than a Zerg army? Even the slowest zerg army (infestor/broodlord) isn't any slower than the terran counter-army (ghost, viking, tank, marine, etc...).
I don't know man, you seem to be the most bias person on TL. Get better? LMAO
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Every time something gets a big nerf, that race acts like it is the most OBVIOUSLY ridiculous thing and that everyone who doesn't see it is such an idiot. Then next patch, its another race, and they do the same thing. Its like people really have no ability to be objective or look back on times when other people were being silly and realize they are the ones doing the same thing.
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On February 11 2012 14:17 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 14:12 Ziggitz wrote:On February 11 2012 14:05 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 11 2012 13:17 mrtomjones wrote:On February 11 2012 12:53 SolidMoose wrote:On February 11 2012 12:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 11 2012 12:14 Jormundr wrote:+ Show Spoiler +From : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309042This is taken from a sample size of 102 TvZ matchups Since this was taken from MLG Providence, I will assume that this sample is almost entirely representative of the top 2% of players (masters and grandmasters). This graph provides evidence that ghosts do not 'counter' tier 3 zerg. Considering the whole broodlord infestor vs ghost marine tank viking dance usually starts at or after 20 minutes, why were terrans not winning here? I am pretty sure that snipe efficiency was figured out pretty well this summer (when we first started to see MVP using it profusely, especially against ultralisk comps). So; Question: If ghosts are so strong, why didn't terrans have a positive win-rate after the 20 minute mark? Answer: Ghosts are incredibly expensive, and require tech lab rax instead of reactor rax (important in a marine dominated matchup) Ghosts actually happen to be the most expensive unit per supply in the terran arsenal (I would argue that 2 supply makes them too easy to mass in TvZ, but 3 supply would have too massive of an effect on TvP) For example, to build the scary ball of ghosts that "counters zerg t3" (as I have read over and over again in this thread) I will assume that they mean a ball of: 15 Ghosts 25 ghosts 3000 minerals 5000 minerals 1500 gas 2500 gas 30 supply 50 supply 120 to 200 seconds* 200 to 330 seconds* * note that the first value corresponds to the mad terran player who just happens to have 5 tech lab rax on hand. Second number is for a terran who has 3. 5 tech lab rax would be slightly unusual in a matchup that is marine dominated So without the ghost, what do you suggest to counter broodlord corruptor infestor? m̶a̶r̶i̶n̶e̶s̶ 1 full energy infestor can kill 35 marines, with enough energy left for two infested terrans. OVERPOWERED, I DON'T LIKE IT, COUNTERS TERRAN T1, NEEDS A NERF (etcetera) ̶t̶h̶o̶r̶s̶ 4 broodlords kill 4 micro'd thors with 2 full health broods left v̶i̶k̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ - 8 corruptors kill 8 vikings with 1 corruptor left (no micro, no corruption) b̶a̶t̶t̶l̶e̶c̶r̶u̶i̶s̶e̶r̶ - I tested 4 cruisers (24 supply, 1 arm, 1 leg,) vs 8 corruptors - 1 battlecruiser lives with 57/550 hp. SAVED r̶a̶v̶e̶n̶ - 13 ravens with HSM kill 8 broodlords (if you use 125 energy each) all of these were done with equal upgrades The problem is that broodlord + corruptor + infestor has a ridiculous advantage in the air battle already. corruptor broodlord is better than terran anti air in a straight up fight. Corruptors are also easier to produce en masse (see larvae) which gives them the ability to take momentum in the air battle much more quickly than a terran with 2-3 reactor ports. Also note that zerg air will generally have both armor and attack upgrades, whereas terran air will at best have attack upgrades, because there is no terran air endgame ball that is effective in tvz. TL;DR Without ghosts, terrans have no answer to zerg air superiority because - wait for it - ZERG AIR IS SUPERIOR Um no sorry vikings own everything in the air o.o Also keep in mind other factors will effect such a graph. For example, games where a terran does an all-in and fails but stays in the game past 20 minutes will make the graph look like what it is now. It could just be that a like event happens more than the opposite (a macro terran getting past 20 minutes) Um no sorry numbers speak the truth o.o. Vikings do not beat corruptor/muta. Zerg has better air to air 100%. Vikings can micro dude...amongst other things.. On the topic of Terran whining here... have you even considered that the best 2 players in the world are still both Terran? Have you considered that in the top level of SC2 games there are still either 3 or 4 in the round of 8 with only 1 zerg? I'm not a zerg but perhaps they should be the ones complaining. They havn't been performing for quite awhile now. Has anyone complaining really watched a pro game where one guy had 10-12 ghosts against Zerg? This complaining is stupid. Heck your snipe ability is slightly better against casters now(Not sure if it makes it one less hit or not) and the ghost should exist to counter the enemy casters... -_- You can't really micro vikings in such an engagement though. First of all, their acceleration is not fast enough, so they will always eat some shots and second of all, how far will you micro them away from the corrupters? Across the map, so that in the meantime the broodlords can kill everything? This is such a delusional post which almost screams "I have no clue" all over. And Zerg was underperforming? I don't know but I really feel like you are stretching the definition of underperforming here a bit. Zerg had the highest overall win rate of all 3 races last month, how exactly is that underperforming, just how!? And to all the "smartasses" who claim that the only reason terran has such low lategame win rates is the fact that they get a disadvantage early on, this is an invalid argument. Because it works both ways, terran also gets an advantage early on and then can't kill their opponent and have to drop, harrass etc, which often times results in a win later on. So this effectively nullifies the argument, because it is basically an assumption which can only be incorrect. You could of course cherry-pick and completely ignore the 50% of games that do not support your argument. I mean this is typical, you have numbers which show a clear trend, yet there are people who choose to disregard reality, ignore facts and make up their own stories as to why the numbers are so bad for terran. Really, interesting, really. Can you clarify? This makes no fucking sense. It's really quite easy to understand. Your premise was that terran only has low lategame win rates because of a disadvantageous early game (in the games they lose). This is essenitally your argument. But it completely ignores the fact that there will be a similar amount of games with an advantageous early game for terran, which results in the same amount of wins/losses. Terran is hard to kill, sure, but Terran also relies on heavy harrassment and dropping to win games, which very, very often drags into late game. A terran does not simply a move to victory, unless they are ridiculously, unbelievably far ahead. Most terran victories (unless they are early game all-ins) are methdocial harrass- drop wins, that's how most players play terran. Harrassment and then a final kill move. And stop the cherry picking. There is absolutely no evidence for your theory, absolutely none. So just leave it, you can't possibly win this argument because you have zero evidence.
Your assumption relies on the notion that Terran wins will play out the same way that Zerg wins do, and if you think they do then I want what you're smoking, because that's mathematically impossible. If Terrans win 55% of the time and Zergs are winning 65% of the time in the late game then before the point of convergence of time at which the win rate is 50%, Terrans have to win by even more for the first two statements to hold true.
As stated in my previous post, to hold that belief and stay consistent, you either have to believe that Terrans have an even more unfair advantage in the early game or that Terrans are just all totally fucking awesome and win those very balanced early games by skill (because Terrans are just so much fucking better than everyone else amirite?) and having those late games snatched away by a hugely imbalanced lategame. Both of these opinions are incredibly fucking stupid.
The races are asymmetric, Zerg is largely melee, can't assault a turtling player and need to wait a long time to get broodlords or a huge number of mutas out before they can break a Terran they have a large lead over, attacking poorly can often turn a huge lead into a loss. Terrans on the other hand have the advantage of more cost effective units and long range in the form of siege tanks, allowing them to express an advantage much more quickly than a Zerg is because if they have a big enough army lead they can just go fucking kill you. Also a powerful two base all in, which are extremely common can take just a minute or two to win, but if the Zerg holds it off it can take upwards of ten minutes to finally win the game because a supply depot and bunker wall in with a siege tank or two behind it can hold of inifinite Zerglings and a much larger army of banelings.
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Canada1521 Posts
On February 11 2012 13:15 Vindicare605 wrote:
After much theorycrafting, this change is going to FORCE Terrans into using Ravens, Ghosts and Vikings all at once to beat the Corruptor/Broodlord/Infestor ball.
Ghosts to EMP the Infestors, Ravens to PDD the Corruptors and Vikings to Hit the broods. While Marines mop up whatever else is left.
You could make the case that Terrans should use Battlecruisers as well but that's out of the question considering the gas requirement for the units already required.
My only problem with this, is how difficult it's going to be to deal with that death ball. If you can't get the EMPS off or if the Raven gets sniped before PDD goes down you're essentially boned. Broodlords deal with the marines well enough on their own once they get firing.
Whats really funny about this is the terran player is going to have to have immaculate micro to make it work while his zerg opponent is just going to have to a-move and hit a couple of fungals.
There has got to be a better solution.
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Not a fan of all of these changes.
I agree with the pheonix range, Protoss needed that.
However, if the goal of snipe was to reduce effectiveness against ultras and broodlords, why not make it do less damage against massive instead of nerfing the daamge. This has a host of consequences, which change snipes on workers, marines, zealots, roaches, etc.
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On February 11 2012 14:33 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 13:15 Vindicare605 wrote:
After much theorycrafting, this change is going to FORCE Terrans into using Ravens, Ghosts and Vikings all at once to beat the Corruptor/Broodlord/Infestor ball.
Ghosts to EMP the Infestors, Ravens to PDD the Corruptors and Vikings to Hit the broods. While Marines mop up whatever else is left.
You could make the case that Terrans should use Battlecruisers as well but that's out of the question considering the gas requirement for the units already required.
My only problem with this, is how difficult it's going to be to deal with that death ball. If you can't get the EMPS off or if the Raven gets sniped before PDD goes down you're essentially boned. Broodlords deal with the marines well enough on their own once they get firing. Whats really funny about this is the terran player is going to have to have immaculate micro to make it work while his zerg opponent is just going to have to a-move and hit a couple of fungals. There has got to be a better solution.
Yeah I ran into a zerg that told me it was harder to fungal with infestors and send in his army than chain snipes, micro back and spread stimmed bio and position vikings correctly.
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On February 11 2012 14:33 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 13:15 Vindicare605 wrote:
After much theorycrafting, this change is going to FORCE Terrans into using Ravens, Ghosts and Vikings all at once to beat the Corruptor/Broodlord/Infestor ball.
Ghosts to EMP the Infestors, Ravens to PDD the Corruptors and Vikings to Hit the broods. While Marines mop up whatever else is left.
You could make the case that Terrans should use Battlecruisers as well but that's out of the question considering the gas requirement for the units already required.
My only problem with this, is how difficult it's going to be to deal with that death ball. If you can't get the EMPS off or if the Raven gets sniped before PDD goes down you're essentially boned. Broodlords deal with the marines well enough on their own once they get firing. Whats really funny about this is the terran player is going to have to have immaculate micro to make it work while his zerg opponent is just going to have to a-move and hit a couple of fungals. There has got to be a better solution.
How is that any different to any other Terran scenario...
TvP end game, and TvZ mid-game (Muta/ling/bling vs Bio/tanks/medivacs). Terran is by the race which relies on solid micro to win engagements. I play random and I have to completely outmacro my opponents when I play as Terran because if you can split/stutter step well enough, and target banes at the same time, then you're dead versus an equal cost army, whereas when I play the other end of the match up, I literally make a flank and a-move.
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On February 11 2012 14:23 SkimGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 13:21 Arkless wrote:On February 11 2012 12:40 Xorphene wrote:On February 11 2012 03:11 xTrim wrote:
overmake vikings = lose to f**king ultra switch... god i hate this, why do i keep playing? Stop feeling so nerfed, zerg's have suffered this forever. Overmake corruptors in ZvP and lose to gateway remax. Stop feeling so special, Terrans moaning about infestors vs vikings need to realise they simply need to split their marines. This is a fantastic patch. The most bias response, and most rediculous. Split your marines? Are you trolling? You negate the fact entirely as well that corruptors, the pre cursor to BL's, counter your bl counter of vikings. They just roll ur main army with ling bling, snipe off ur vikings, remax with bls. That doesn't seem weird???? NOW we also are hella nerfed if both are on golds, it hurts the terran to drop a mule period because of 0 bonus, you lose out in the end. Maybe Terran has to start thinking like Zerg now and take advantage of the fact that you can't win a head-on engagement, but your army is much more mobile and and can be stronger around the map instead of 1 big ball of units... i.e Stop deathballing and get better
Most of Terran units' speed except reaper and hellions have the speed of 225, which is equal to your so-called slow unit Hydralisk, just sayin'
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Canada1521 Posts
You know what is really starting to piss me off?
Blizzard is using bandaids on wounds that require stitches.
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On February 11 2012 14:31 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 14:17 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 11 2012 14:12 Ziggitz wrote:On February 11 2012 14:05 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 11 2012 13:17 mrtomjones wrote:On February 11 2012 12:53 SolidMoose wrote:On February 11 2012 12:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 11 2012 12:14 Jormundr wrote:+ Show Spoiler +From : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309042This is taken from a sample size of 102 TvZ matchups Since this was taken from MLG Providence, I will assume that this sample is almost entirely representative of the top 2% of players (masters and grandmasters). This graph provides evidence that ghosts do not 'counter' tier 3 zerg. Considering the whole broodlord infestor vs ghost marine tank viking dance usually starts at or after 20 minutes, why were terrans not winning here? I am pretty sure that snipe efficiency was figured out pretty well this summer (when we first started to see MVP using it profusely, especially against ultralisk comps). So; Question: If ghosts are so strong, why didn't terrans have a positive win-rate after the 20 minute mark? Answer: Ghosts are incredibly expensive, and require tech lab rax instead of reactor rax (important in a marine dominated matchup) Ghosts actually happen to be the most expensive unit per supply in the terran arsenal (I would argue that 2 supply makes them too easy to mass in TvZ, but 3 supply would have too massive of an effect on TvP) For example, to build the scary ball of ghosts that "counters zerg t3" (as I have read over and over again in this thread) I will assume that they mean a ball of: 15 Ghosts 25 ghosts 3000 minerals 5000 minerals 1500 gas 2500 gas 30 supply 50 supply 120 to 200 seconds* 200 to 330 seconds* * note that the first value corresponds to the mad terran player who just happens to have 5 tech lab rax on hand. Second number is for a terran who has 3. 5 tech lab rax would be slightly unusual in a matchup that is marine dominated So without the ghost, what do you suggest to counter broodlord corruptor infestor? m̶a̶r̶i̶n̶e̶s̶ 1 full energy infestor can kill 35 marines, with enough energy left for two infested terrans. OVERPOWERED, I DON'T LIKE IT, COUNTERS TERRAN T1, NEEDS A NERF (etcetera) ̶t̶h̶o̶r̶s̶ 4 broodlords kill 4 micro'd thors with 2 full health broods left v̶i̶k̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ - 8 corruptors kill 8 vikings with 1 corruptor left (no micro, no corruption) b̶a̶t̶t̶l̶e̶c̶r̶u̶i̶s̶e̶r̶ - I tested 4 cruisers (24 supply, 1 arm, 1 leg,) vs 8 corruptors - 1 battlecruiser lives with 57/550 hp. SAVED r̶a̶v̶e̶n̶ - 13 ravens with HSM kill 8 broodlords (if you use 125 energy each) all of these were done with equal upgrades The problem is that broodlord + corruptor + infestor has a ridiculous advantage in the air battle already. corruptor broodlord is better than terran anti air in a straight up fight. Corruptors are also easier to produce en masse (see larvae) which gives them the ability to take momentum in the air battle much more quickly than a terran with 2-3 reactor ports. Also note that zerg air will generally have both armor and attack upgrades, whereas terran air will at best have attack upgrades, because there is no terran air endgame ball that is effective in tvz. TL;DR Without ghosts, terrans have no answer to zerg air superiority because - wait for it - ZERG AIR IS SUPERIOR Um no sorry vikings own everything in the air o.o Also keep in mind other factors will effect such a graph. For example, games where a terran does an all-in and fails but stays in the game past 20 minutes will make the graph look like what it is now. It could just be that a like event happens more than the opposite (a macro terran getting past 20 minutes) Um no sorry numbers speak the truth o.o. Vikings do not beat corruptor/muta. Zerg has better air to air 100%. Vikings can micro dude...amongst other things.. On the topic of Terran whining here... have you even considered that the best 2 players in the world are still both Terran? Have you considered that in the top level of SC2 games there are still either 3 or 4 in the round of 8 with only 1 zerg? I'm not a zerg but perhaps they should be the ones complaining. They havn't been performing for quite awhile now. Has anyone complaining really watched a pro game where one guy had 10-12 ghosts against Zerg? This complaining is stupid. Heck your snipe ability is slightly better against casters now(Not sure if it makes it one less hit or not) and the ghost should exist to counter the enemy casters... -_- You can't really micro vikings in such an engagement though. First of all, their acceleration is not fast enough, so they will always eat some shots and second of all, how far will you micro them away from the corrupters? Across the map, so that in the meantime the broodlords can kill everything? This is such a delusional post which almost screams "I have no clue" all over. And Zerg was underperforming? I don't know but I really feel like you are stretching the definition of underperforming here a bit. Zerg had the highest overall win rate of all 3 races last month, how exactly is that underperforming, just how!? And to all the "smartasses" who claim that the only reason terran has such low lategame win rates is the fact that they get a disadvantage early on, this is an invalid argument. Because it works both ways, terran also gets an advantage early on and then can't kill their opponent and have to drop, harrass etc, which often times results in a win later on. So this effectively nullifies the argument, because it is basically an assumption which can only be incorrect. You could of course cherry-pick and completely ignore the 50% of games that do not support your argument. I mean this is typical, you have numbers which show a clear trend, yet there are people who choose to disregard reality, ignore facts and make up their own stories as to why the numbers are so bad for terran. Really, interesting, really. Can you clarify? This makes no fucking sense. It's really quite easy to understand. Your premise was that terran only has low lategame win rates because of a disadvantageous early game (in the games they lose). This is essenitally your argument. But it completely ignores the fact that there will be a similar amount of games with an advantageous early game for terran, which results in the same amount of wins/losses. Terran is hard to kill, sure, but Terran also relies on heavy harrassment and dropping to win games, which very, very often drags into late game. A terran does not simply a move to victory, unless they are ridiculously, unbelievably far ahead. Most terran victories (unless they are early game all-ins) are methdocial harrass- drop wins, that's how most players play terran. Harrassment and then a final kill move. And stop the cherry picking. There is absolutely no evidence for your theory, absolutely none. So just leave it, you can't possibly win this argument because you have zero evidence. Your assumption relies on the notion that Terran wins will play out the same way that Zerg wins do, and if you think they do then I want what you're smoking, because that's mathematically impossible. If Terrans win 55% of the time and Zergs are winning 65% of the time in the late game then before the point of convergence of time at which the win rate is 50%, Terrans have to win by even more for the first two statements to hold true. As stated in my previous post, to hold that belief and stay consistent, you either have to believe that Terrans have an even more unfair advantage in the early game or that Terrans are just all totally fucking awesome and win those very balanced early games by skill (because Terrans are just so much fucking better than everyone else amirite?) and having those late games snatched away by a hugely imbalanced lategame. Both of these opinions are incredibly fucking stupid. The races are asymmetric, Zerg is largely melee, can't assault a turtling player and need to wait a long time to get broodlords or a huge number of mutas out before they can break a Terran they have a large lead over, attacking poorly can often turn a huge lead into a loss. Terrans on the other hand have the advantage of more cost effective units and long range in the form of siege tanks, allowing them to express an advantage much more quickly than a Zerg is because if they have a big enough army lead they can just go fucking kill you. Also a powerful two base all in, which are extremely common can take just a minute or two to win, but if the Zerg holds it off it can take upwards of ten minutes to finally win the game because a supply depot and bunker wall in with a siege tank or two behind it can hold of inifinite Zerglings and a much larger army of banelings.
I always say that Terran early game(more midgame actually) needs a nerf and lategame a serious buff. Anyone who plays Terran knows that the race gets worse the longer the game goes on, especially in TvP, after 20 minutes I feel like just gging and leaving the game.
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On February 11 2012 14:38 magnaflow wrote:
You know what is really starting to piss me off?
Blizzard is using bandaids on wounds that require stitches.
I'd hate to see your stitch for ghosts then. Remove them from the game maybe? Make them a 300/300 scout that can hand out lollypops to zerg forces?
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On February 11 2012 14:28 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 14:23 SkimGuy wrote:On February 11 2012 13:21 Arkless wrote:On February 11 2012 12:40 Xorphene wrote:On February 11 2012 03:11 xTrim wrote:
overmake vikings = lose to f**king ultra switch... god i hate this, why do i keep playing? Stop feeling so nerfed, zerg's have suffered this forever. Overmake corruptors in ZvP and lose to gateway remax. Stop feeling so special, Terrans moaning about infestors vs vikings need to realise they simply need to split their marines. This is a fantastic patch. The most bias response, and most rediculous. Split your marines? Are you trolling? You negate the fact entirely as well that corruptors, the pre cursor to BL's, counter your bl counter of vikings. They just roll ur main army with ling bling, snipe off ur vikings, remax with bls. That doesn't seem weird???? NOW we also are hella nerfed if both are on golds, it hurts the terran to drop a mule period because of 0 bonus, you lose out in the end. Maybe Terran has to start thinking like Zerg now and take advantage of the fact that you can't win a head-on engagement, but your army is much more mobile and and can be stronger around the map instead of 1 big ball of units... i.e Stop deathballing and get better When is a terran army ever more mobile than a Zerg army? Even the slowest zerg army (infestor/broodlord) isn't any slower than the terran counter-army (ghost, viking, tank, marine, etc...). I don't know man, you seem to be the most bias person on TL. Get better? LMAO
I don't know man, i think he's referring more to the fact that T tends to be more drop based, and so you'll be able to split up your main army into 3 groups (your main focal point at the front, and then 2 drops of 8 marines each), and still be incredibly effective, while it's hard for a zerg player to peal off 8 lings to really do a whole lot of damage most of the time. (Sure, if you happen to get it to the just landed CC, while it's morphing into a PF, and all the SCVs just showed up and aren't protected, you can do a TON of damage, but that's extremely circumstantial, while the T can tend to make their opportunities a little more frequently).
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I love these changes. Sick of Ghosts just insta killing T3 units like they did. Looks like Terrans will have to use Ravens(for PDD) and vikings. Poor them, I'm sure they had fun A moving while they could lol
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On February 11 2012 14:45 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:
I love these changes. Sick of Ghosts just insta killing T3 units like they did. Looks like Terrans will have to use Ravens(for PDD) and vikings. Poor them, I'm sure they had fun A moving while they could lol
Terrans a-moving? What are you, bronze? i'm pretty sure any terran above plat level can't just a-move his whole army.
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On February 11 2012 14:44 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 14:28 ChaosTerran wrote:On February 11 2012 14:23 SkimGuy wrote:On February 11 2012 13:21 Arkless wrote:On February 11 2012 12:40 Xorphene wrote:On February 11 2012 03:11 xTrim wrote:
overmake vikings = lose to f**king ultra switch... god i hate this, why do i keep playing? Stop feeling so nerfed, zerg's have suffered this forever. Overmake corruptors in ZvP and lose to gateway remax. Stop feeling so special, Terrans moaning about infestors vs vikings need to realise they simply need to split their marines. This is a fantastic patch. The most bias response, and most rediculous. Split your marines? Are you trolling? You negate the fact entirely as well that corruptors, the pre cursor to BL's, counter your bl counter of vikings. They just roll ur main army with ling bling, snipe off ur vikings, remax with bls. That doesn't seem weird???? NOW we also are hella nerfed if both are on golds, it hurts the terran to drop a mule period because of 0 bonus, you lose out in the end. Maybe Terran has to start thinking like Zerg now and take advantage of the fact that you can't win a head-on engagement, but your army is much more mobile and and can be stronger around the map instead of 1 big ball of units... i.e Stop deathballing and get better When is a terran army ever more mobile than a Zerg army? Even the slowest zerg army (infestor/broodlord) isn't any slower than the terran counter-army (ghost, viking, tank, marine, etc...). I don't know man, you seem to be the most bias person on TL. Get better? LMAO I don't know man, i think he's referring more to the fact that T tends to be more drop based, and so you'll be able to split up your main army into 3 groups (your main focal point at the front, and then 2 drops of 8 marines each), and still be incredibly effective, while it's hard for a zerg player to peal off 8 lings to really do a whole lot of damage most of the time. (Sure, if you happen to get it to the just landed CC, while it's morphing into a PF, and all the SCVs just showed up and aren't protected, you can do a TON of damage, but that's extremely circumstantial, while the T can tend to make their opportunities a little more frequently).
Nah, Zerg players (after 1,5years) have learned to build mass spine crawlers around their expos, which basically makes drops lategame completely uneffective. It's not even funny, you drop the Zerg's 4th or 5th and there's already 6 spine crawlers there. Especially when we talk about lategame TvZ, a halfway decent zerg should have mass spinecrawlers at his expos, there is no reason not to do it and it makes drops from the terran side pretty much pointless.
On February 11 2012 14:47 MelodyBW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 14:45 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:
I love these changes. Sick of Ghosts just insta killing T3 units like they did. Looks like Terrans will have to use Ravens(for PDD) and vikings. Poor them, I'm sure they had fun A moving while they could lol Terrans a-moving? What are you, bronze? i'm pretty sure any terran above plat level can't just a-move his whole army.
Well, they can... if they want to lose.
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On February 11 2012 14:45 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:
I love these changes. Sick of Ghosts just insta killing T3 units like they did. Looks like Terrans will have to use Ravens(for PDD) and vikings. Poor them, I'm sure they had fun A moving while they could lol
So you say ghosts were a problem as they insta killed stuff and then say the terran just a moves his army?
Seriously, watch MVP lose on BelShir beach when trying to use Vikings to counter broodlord corrupter infestor without ghosts, it does not and will not work if the two players enter late game in similar positions.
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I believe this was discussed here already many times, but anyways, i want to express my opinion.
They want to help P to deal with mass muta harrass by increasing phoenix range that is... in fleet beacon!
They are, apparently, on high-weighted drugs. Anyone see that build FB just for phoenix upgrade is most ridiculous thing ever.
But if P can afford FB economically, why the hell not just build MS?... Why do you need phoenix in that stage of the game... I can never understand their logic.
Concerning ghost snipe:
He said that snipe counter all the Z units. Oh yeah... Exact the same way as FG counter all the T has.
If T makes lot of Vikings to counter BL (that is a good choice) he eventually get demolished to quick Ultra switch. All the world does know about that T late game problem but David Kim.
Remove FG affect Air and lot of issues would be solved immediately, and you can change ghost snipe whatever way you want.
This is really sad... Not the patch itself, but the way they try to figure this game out.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/114/zvt.png)
