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We Must Fight For The Carrier - Page 17

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Facultyadjutant
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Sweden1876 Posts
January 31 2012 20:31 GMT
#321
Protoss are just having huge problems with lategame zvp against infestor broodlord


So instead of letting carrier help with that roll as a siege unit while having mobility in its flying capacities - We dump it.

And... give them a capital anti muta ship which is terrible
#1 FAN OF TERRY THE INTERN - NONY AND IDRA NUMBER #1, EVERY DAY. AXIOM MANOR - Axiom: Ryung, Alicia, Heart and Crank under the Don TotalBiscuit and the Donnesa Genna Bain- Join the family http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=396090#2
KarneEspada
Profile Joined May 2011
United States72 Posts
January 31 2012 20:37 GMT
#322
I think I have a possible idea on how to make carriers viable, tell me what you think:
A main glaring issue the carrier in sc2 is that it is barely microable compared to BW...
So what if we make it more like a brood lord? It does an initial attack where, say, all the interceptors do damage a once to a target when they zoom out then proceed to do their normal mechanic? If the interceptor dps were nerfed this would mitigate them from being op whilst allowing carriers to be micro'd.

KespadA, UC Irvine
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
February 10 2012 19:00 GMT
#323
Felt inclined to bump this after the news that Patch 1.4.3 introduces Fleet Beacon tech which makes phoenix counter mutalisks, invalidating the tempest entirely.

The Tempest was intended as a Fleet Beacon tech level answer to mutalisks and other air units. In the patch report thing, Blizzard said this Phoenix buff was for the very same reason.

Is it time for us to celebrate our victory? With the tempest gone, could it be possible that Blizzard is finally considering making the appropriate changes to the carrier? Will it finally be able to attack while moving, granting it the ability to micro and keep its self alive while still being an effective damage dealer?
Nekratos
Profile Joined February 2012
Singapore16 Posts
February 10 2012 19:06 GMT
#324
+ 99999

Completely in agreement with OP! BUFF CARRIERS and give them a shot Blizz!
Co-founder of EasyGreet and www.SGPad.com
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 19:08:36
February 10 2012 19:07 GMT
#325
On February 11 2012 04:00 Mohdoo wrote:
Felt inclined to bump this after the news that Patch 1.4.3 introduces Fleet Beacon tech which makes phoenix counter mutalisks, invalidating the tempest entirely.

The Tempest was intended as a Fleet Beacon tech level answer to mutalisks and other air units. In the patch report thing, Blizzard said this Phoenix buff was for the very same reason.

Is it time for us to celebrate our victory? With the tempest gone, could it be possible that Blizzard is finally considering making the appropriate changes to the carrier? Will it finally be able to attack while moving, granting it the ability to micro and keep its self alive while still being an effective damage dealer?


No, still too early in my opinion. If anything, the phoenix makes the possibility of the carrier even less viable, as it makes the phoenix an even better answer to the carrier in dealing with massed light air. I think the upgrade for phoenix is a plus, but I do not think it necessarily helps the carrier, as it still does not have a good use for most protoss players. I would have liked to see a carrier buff though, such as ability to micro or some characteristics from BW.
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
Stropheum
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1124 Posts
February 10 2012 19:09 GMT
#326
But you haven't even tried the new phoenix?
Special Endrey
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1929 Posts
February 10 2012 19:13 GMT
#327
Carrier hwaiting!
This signature is ruining eSports - -Twitter: @SpecialEndrey
LeibSaiLeib
Profile Joined October 2010
173 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 19:20:25
February 10 2012 19:17 GMT
#328
On January 26 2012 09:30 EternaLLegacy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2012 09:24 Tppz! wrote:
The problem is that the Carrier was only used in BW because of PvT. There was no Voidray or Phoenix that could have lifted Tanks. Terrans didnt need Antiair until the opponent goes for Carriers. The only real Flying Air-Ground Threat. Nowadays in SC2 we have sick DPS and every Race has a longrange Air-Air Counterunit. Carriers melt like they are flys. And they arent even a big threat to Terrans cause Terrans cant go mech. And if they go Voidrays, Immortals, Chargelots, Blinkstalkers etc are a lot better at dealing with mech.
So there is no Unitrole where the Carrier fits. The Colossus is also a longrange siegeunit but has AoE, doesnt depend so hard on upgrades, is faster, you can micro him, and benefits on the same upgrades as your gteway units do.

There is no place in SC2 for Carriers. Its sad but its just a decorative element of the game. There are a lot units taht do a lot better than the carrier in its "role" in the game.
You cant save something that isnt used AT ALL.


Oh how wrong you are...

Carriers were used in PvZ on very rare occasion, but it was extremely map dependent.

Terran needs anti-air to shoot shuttle very early on, and to clear out observers and arbiters later. You should always have some goliaths on hand past earlygame.

Every race in BW had a long range ATA unit too: Scouts, Wraiths, and Devourers.

Carriers melt because dps of units in SC2 is higher, and they have I believe 2 base armor vs the 4 they have in BW.

Carriers are actually quite useful vs T, but you are correct, they are simply outclassed by so many other options, and very few T gets mech these days cause it's not viable. It's not that carriers are useless and have to be removed, it's that mech is stupid and bad and needs to be fixed.


oh i remember the epic games whre mass air vs mass air, 50 scourage flying to prootos massive air fleet, devauvers etc... oh those games 5 years ago...

EDIT: why do everyone even need hard counters for every single thing, in BW nothing hard countered carriers, hell, you made 8 carriers and they might have survived for 30 minutes (interceptors die alot thou and take minerals, talking about PvT). But terrans still could win. Soft counters make games much more interesting.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 19:20:57
February 10 2012 19:19 GMT
#329
I'd rather have the tempest than the carrier as it is now. If they fix the carrier so that it A: can be micro'd, B: intercepters don't die instantly and don't drain shit tons of money, and C: Carriers have an actual purpose then I'll be ecstatic.

Hell, they could easily tack on an upgrade to increase interceptor build speed and decrease the cost of them.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3621 Posts
February 10 2012 19:24 GMT
#330
Why should the carrier stay? Well, there are three possible objections:

It's overpowered. (Apparently not, but a possible objection.) Solution: nerf, baby, nerf.
It's underpowered. Buff? Or if that's not viable and it's just that...
It's useless. Ladies and gentlemen... the scout. Or maybe the valkyrie, depending how useless. Or nukes. Queens? "Useless" and hard-to-use units have their place in competitive gaming, and a mentality of "well just get rid of it" is not something we want to cultivate.
#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
Spieltor
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
327 Posts
February 10 2012 19:25 GMT
#331
if carrier is nerfed and made cheaper, I'll fight for it. Its too strong en masse in its current incarnation. Blizzard would rather remove useful and good units tahn fix them, and try to prop up units that generally suck and are failures by patching in gimmick spells like the viper "scorpion mortal kombat pull vs colossus", than do the right thing with the "new" units that they made.

they're getting rid of the carrier cause they didnt make it. they wont get rid of the colossus because they did make it. Pure egoism.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
February 10 2012 19:25 GMT
#332
WE MUST KEEP CARRIERS because they...were...in BW and are cool...

Look, I miss CARRIER HAS ARRIVED as much as the next guy but there's no reason to keep it for sentimental value. It's bad, if they want to get rid of it the w/e.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
February 10 2012 19:37 GMT
#333
On February 11 2012 04:25 The KY wrote:
WE MUST KEEP CARRIERS because they...were...in BW and are cool...

Look, I miss CARRIER HAS ARRIVED as much as the next guy but there's no reason to keep it for sentimental value. It's bad, if they want to get rid of it the w/e.


Remember how bad infestors were? Ultralisks? Stalkers? Warp Prism? BCs also got substantial changes to make them used more often. All Carriers need is the attack while moving mechanism they had in BW and its a solid unit.
miniwheats
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada187 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 19:38:21
February 10 2012 19:38 GMT
#334
Carrier's are amazing. I don't feel as if blizzard is even trying to make them viable. Instead, removing the Carrier an adding the Tempest unit just makes it look like they have been working hard when they probably haven't been. Even if they remove it, it will live on in my heart and as my custom rainmeter icon for starcraft 2: + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
"Don't disturb my Circles!" -Archimedes
Hinanawi
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2250 Posts
February 10 2012 19:42 GMT
#335
1. Remove the Colossus
2. Bring back the Reaver
3. Tweak the Carrier

I would probably start watching SC2 again (at least PvX matches) if the reaver came back. Such a brilliant unit, so unlike the colossus.
Favorite progamers (in order): Flash, Stork, Violet, Sea. ||| Get better soon, Violet!
Cosmos
Profile Joined March 2010
Belgium1077 Posts
February 10 2012 19:44 GMT
#336
I'd prefer to see the carrier having the stats of the new anti-muta flying unit that they want to create (it'd launch some interceptors instead of the lightning ball and make the same effect) instead of making them go.
http://www.twitch.tv/becosmos
awesomoecalypse
Profile Joined August 2010
United States2235 Posts
February 10 2012 19:45 GMT
#337
The Phoenix buff is much preferable to the Tempest IMO, because to get the most out of it will still require good micro and situational awareness. Its not simply a matter of "get x unit to counter x strategy", its "get x upgrade which opens up micro possibility, exploit those micro possiblities.
He drone drone drone. Me win. - ogsMC
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 19:52:41
February 10 2012 19:45 GMT
#338
sigh the range upgrade from the phoenix doesn't change anything with the reason why they wanted the tempest (air aoe so the opponent air army has to split, like the toss army has to do and thus loosing damage). And haha bcs got changes to make them used more often, true the ground damage nerf because they were totally op, made them used more often.

The carrier should stay ingame not because we lack the air to air aoe, it should stay ingame because its a siege weapon that is the total opposite to the colossus, being really effective against high hp units and immune to ground attacks, which makes them really important in some matchups. Zerg will get 2 siege weapons as well (though the swarmhost is pretty useless since broodlords can use creep tumors to create broodlings and send them into the enemy defense line.) The reason because they get contered by the same units doesn't apply for me, since corrupters will get a damage nerf with HotS (damage skill removed). And you can already kite vikings and corrupters with carriers fairly cost effective.
For me the carrier is an really important tool against lategame deathball zerg or mech even if you don't face it often.
Spicy_Curry
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States10573 Posts
February 10 2012 19:47 GMT
#339
carriers need scarabs
High Risk Low Reward
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
February 10 2012 19:48 GMT
#340
On February 11 2012 04:19 Whitewing wrote:
I'd rather have the tempest than the carrier as it is now. If they fix the carrier so that it A: can be micro'd, B: intercepters don't die instantly and don't drain shit tons of money, and C: Carriers have an actual purpose then I'll be ecstatic.

Hell, they could easily tack on an upgrade to increase interceptor build speed and decrease the cost of them.


A lot is still unknown about the tempest. It might be amazing. I'm worried that it's going to end up the same speed as the carrier, less range, less armor and more gas intensive. I think interceptors are underappreciated. They have a lot of health for something that only costs minerals and is worth no food. Then again, it would be nice if there were another protoss unit (other than the immortal) for which armor upgrades were not a major barrier. It is a bit confounding that there is only one protoss unit which does more than 10 damage per shot.
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