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On January 26 2012 04:20 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:09 50bani wrote:On January 26 2012 04:01 Xalorian wrote:On January 26 2012 03:52 Shockk wrote:
So Protoss is doing well overall, with the exception of tournament wins, which are decided amongst a select group too small for any statistical relevance. And Terran is doing ok-ish at high levels, but struggingly below masters, which is a group representing a huge percentage of the playerbase.
ok-ish? OK-ISH? Terran are doing AWESOME at high level. And seriously, if you can't understand that eSport and pro-level of play is where the balance is relevant... i'm sorry for you. Any balance statement is falacious and utterly stupid if the game is not played at a very high level, simply because it means that the players are only using a small percentage of what is available to them and not efficiently. And, the game feel actually quite balanced lately. But eSports don't make money for Blizzard, it the little guys that populate the metals and the 2v2s. Are you that enthusiastic about HotS? I'm not and don't feel like I have to have it, to be honest. Also if the declining player numbers according to sc2ranks are at all accurate, it means HotS won't sell well, and the other expansion might even be cancelled imo. There is so much wrong information in this post it is staggering. Large tournaments have to pay Blizzard in order to use SC2. Even small tournaments provided valuable marketing for Blizzard and SC2 and help promote the brand. There is no recurring monthly subscription for playing SC2, so if Blizzard wants to make money in addition to initial sales of the game, it is through these tournaments and the additional players it might bring in. Declining player numbers means that the "casual" players are getting sick of Wings of Liberty. This is perfectly normal and expected to be frank. I don't think Blizzard expected every single person who purchased the game to play regularly for the rest of their lives. It's a statement for the longevity of the game that players only started to decline almost a year and a half after release with only minor content additions. I also guarantee you that unless they really didn't like SC2, most of those people will buy HotS and play it for at least a little bit, just like they did with WoL. Not playing SC2 doesn't mean that they're done with the franchise, it means they are done with WoL. But they bought it for a reason, and unless the game didn't live up to their standard, they'll buy HotS for the same reason. And there is no way they'll cancel Legacy of the Void unless HotS is a complete failure (which I don't see happening). Too much potential money there for them to just scrap it for no reason.
I think you are missing a part of the picture. Who are the majority of people that watch the tournaments? When I watch a MLG tournament and there are 40,000 viewers, do you really think that those are all tournament players? Do you think they are all Master players or even Diamond players? No… In order for tournaments to pull in 40,000+ viewers you need to pander to all leagues making the best game you can in order to maintain their customer base. If the balance is so out of whack at lower levels, then you lose your customer base which ultimately affects the tournament. no customers = no tournaments = no money.
And maybe I’m speaking for myself here, but as a gold player… I’m here to tell you that if the balance was a complete wreck because they are pandering to higher levels, then odds are I’m going to get so frustrated with the game that I say screw it and play a different game shifting my interest from SC2 to all together to a new game and new tournaments.
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On January 26 2012 04:34 NMHU. wrote:
''Terran Can’t Beat Protoss''
''Ghost EMP is Too Weak''
As a protoss player, I only have to say : ''lol''
- NMHU.
Thank you  hmmm Terran cant beat protoss lololol
Emp...
Same aoe as storm.
Does damage instantly, impossible to dodge
also takes energy in aoe / feed back only does 1 unit and costs 2/3rds of the gas.
ghosts take 75 gas to tech to. (tech lab n ghost academy)
Fuck lets all just play terran!!
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On January 26 2012 04:33 Corsica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:30 architecture wrote:
How come only P's can complain about mass muta?
Mass muta is equally annoying and ridiculous in TvZ. We dont have those 50 mineral units that kill staff really fast when you press "T"
After a certain scale is reached, mutas beat stalkers. 3/3 Marines /w Stim & Medivacs on the other hand can beat mutas at the same numbers as there are marines despite being a 50/0 unit vs a 100/100 unit.
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Muta ball in late PvZ is a bit stupid, because you basically just spam single unit and the toss ca't really leave the base unless you miscontrol them. Either add something that holds them in place so archons can molest them with their splash or add another upgrade to Fleet beacon that lets phoenix fight them cost-effectively, probably with splash because any air kiting with phoenixes is really gard with the built in delay and you want something that actively discourages too many mutas while a few is still fine. It also doesn't make them all that stronger vs corruptors.
I'm actually surprised there's no answer about infestor broodlord in PvZ, because countering it with mothership feels really gimmicky, even though it gets the job done.
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On January 26 2012 04:38 meltingmykohchoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:34 NMHU. wrote:
''Terran Can’t Beat Protoss''
''Ghost EMP is Too Weak''
As a protoss player, I only have to say : ''lol''
- NMHU. Thank you hmmm Terran cant beat protoss lololol Emp... Same aoe as storm. Does damage instantly, impossible to dodge also takes energy in aoe / feed back only does 1 unit and costs 2/3rds of the gas. ghosts take 75 gas to tech to. (tech lab n ghost academy) Fuck lets all just play terran!!
EMP is a projectile. I think the word you're looking for is possible.
The irony is that storm is instant cast but damage over time and actually is "impossible to dodge" after it's cast, whether or not the toss cast it on units is a different story.
Not complaining about toss btw.
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Some fleet beacon uppgrade for phoenixes that made them own mutas harder and problem solved.
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I just hope that they discontinue their "next patch = next Terran nerf" policy as it is incredible hard for current Master players to play consistant and it is a long way to obtain the necessary skill which makes Korean Terrans so strong.
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I like the suggestions in the comments for increasing the range of the phoenix so that they would now be able to kite mutas easier thus making them a more viable counter however doing that wouldn't really help the lower level community concerns that Blizzard seems to want to address. The lower level players would benefit much more from an AoE upgrade. It will be interesting to see what direction they choose.
What I like about the AoE change is that it wouldn't change much against smaller groups of muta harass which I feel are exciting and fun to play against but would prevent a Muta Blob from just dominating everything.
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Why the fuck is FFE being hard to stop an issue that even warrants discussion?! WRRROONNG direction!!
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I wish he would at least have acknowledged the possibility of changing/removing the colossus. I don't like how the answer to the question of "What to do with the problem of carrier and colossus having the same role?" is to stubbornly keep the colossus.
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On January 26 2012 04:39 acrimoneyius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:38 meltingmykohchoo wrote:On January 26 2012 04:34 NMHU. wrote:
''Terran Can’t Beat Protoss''
''Ghost EMP is Too Weak''
As a protoss player, I only have to say : ''lol''
- NMHU. Thank you hmmm Terran cant beat protoss lololol Emp... Same aoe as storm. Does damage instantly, impossible to dodge also takes energy in aoe / feed back only does 1 unit and costs 2/3rds of the gas. ghosts take 75 gas to tech to. (tech lab n ghost academy) Fuck lets all just play terran!! EMP is a projectile. I think the word you're looking for is possible.
Is that a serious response? Show me a case of someone dodging a sc2 emp projectile or hell just a straight up image of the projectile's flight.
Completely ridiculous to say that emp is not more effective than emp and is "dodgeable" =.=
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On January 26 2012 03:08 mTwTT1 wrote:
phoenix's deal splash damage to air units. bam problem fixed
Can you imagine TvP? Phoenix/Colossi isn't that common (it's been used a bit), but that sort of army composition is already one of the hardest to beat. Now you're suggesting to make it even stronger? I'm not going to deny that you're a better player than me, and perhaps that is the appropriate answer to the Mutalisk problem, but it would really mess up TvP. David Kim, while I don't agree with everything he says, has a very good point that changing one thing like that can greatly affect the entire metagame in multiple match-ups.
I think we should revisit IdrA's old solution, but tweak it a bit:
+ Show Spoiler +"Remove [Protoss] from the game." I mean, let's face it, most of these problems deal with Protoss anyways...
But on a more serious note, I think that it's silly to talk about the GSL. I know that this is a hypothetical situation and there's far too many variables to actually account for everything, but seeing as over half of the GSLs have been won by Mvp or NesTea, I think that this argument has some merit:
If NesTea or Mvp were to have played Protoss, Zerg, or Terran. They would be a successful progamer. They are determined, their RTS experience goes back a long time, they have experience playing games on stage, and frankly, they're on a superior level to everyone else.
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On January 26 2012 03:08 mTwTT1 wrote:
phoenix's deal splash damage to air units. bam problem fixed
This man knows where its at.
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On January 26 2012 04:31 architecture wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Looks like mech vs Protoss is not even on their mind, sigh...
HOTS can't come soon enough. Mech vs protoss cannot work as long as tanks cannot beat immortal without ridiculous numbers.
I don't care what needs to be fixed and how. It's Blizzard's job to do that. Problem is they appear not to care, at least for WOL.
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On January 26 2012 04:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Looks like mech vs Protoss is not even on their mind, sigh...
HOTS can't come soon enough.
I've thought about this issue a lot and really I'm not sure that I want Mech AND Bio to be options in TvP. In BW you had to mech vs P, HAD to. Aside from very risky strats like the Deep Six Protoss AOE just chewed up Terran Bio making it a death wish to try it in most situations.
TvZ only recently, after 10 years of play, began to have mech appear at regular intervals for BW. I feel like there is a way to mech vs P, or at least incorporate mech, but it just hasn't been figured out yet in SC2. And barring that, like you said, HOTS soon, though a unit specifically designed to make meching viable just feels too contrived and pandering.
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-Scrap tempest, give phoenix AtA splash damage like Corsair (possibly as research on Fleet beacon?). Adjust damage/range/other stats as needed to maintain balance.
-Rework carriers so they have the microability of BW carriers.
-Add a new damage based harass unit instead of Tempest for HOTS to stop the Oracle whiners.
Success!
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On January 26 2012 04:42 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:39 acrimoneyius wrote:On January 26 2012 04:38 meltingmykohchoo wrote:On January 26 2012 04:34 NMHU. wrote:
''Terran Can’t Beat Protoss''
''Ghost EMP is Too Weak''
As a protoss player, I only have to say : ''lol''
- NMHU. Thank you hmmm Terran cant beat protoss lololol Emp... Same aoe as storm. Does damage instantly, impossible to dodge also takes energy in aoe / feed back only does 1 unit and costs 2/3rds of the gas. ghosts take 75 gas to tech to. (tech lab n ghost academy) Fuck lets all just play terran!! EMP is a projectile. I think the word you're looking for is possible. Is that a serious response? Show me a case of someone dodging a sc2 emp projectile or hell just a straight up image of the projectile's flight. Completely ridiculous to say that emp is not more effective than emp and is "dodgeable" =.=
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Where the fuck did I say "is not more effective?" Please quote that part. Oh wait, you can't. Was pointing out the irony that he's complaining about EMP being undodgeable yet it's more dodgeable than a storm because it has a flight path (even if it's a .2-.5 second flight path).
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On January 26 2012 04:36 acrimoneyius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:22 HaXXspetten wrote:
Agree on all points, wouldn't say FFE is a problem PvZ though... and where's the snipe-nerf for lategame TvZ? Thought that was probably the most needed change of all. (I play Toss) Ghost snipe is not a problem in TvZ, considering you always need tanks against zerg against a competent unit composition and broodlords attacking ghosts with tanks hurting them with friendly fire is always a problem. It's just a micro battle (and its a lot more complex than ghost vs HT, which is just retarded). Also if your ghosts are even slightly out of position in a scenario where both players have equal supply, you just lose the game as Terran. I think there was a game MVP vs Stephano or some other zerg where he made 50 ghosts, the other guy had broodlord/infestor/ling with similar supplies and the zerg won, even with the terran on the high ground. That's just one game, but it's fucking MVP. There is no problem with ghost snipe. EDIT: I think it was against darkforce actually. O hai darkforce.
The problem with ghosts and snipe is they literally counter everything zerg has late game.. Infestor broodlord? Bam emp +Snipe Ultras? Snipe! As a protoss player is just seems odd that terran can literally counter every tech choice of the Zerg with one unit. Unlike in TvP where if you go ghost Toss can go collosi and switch back and forth etc.
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On January 26 2012 04:43 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 03:08 mTwTT1 wrote:
phoenix's deal splash damage to air units. bam problem fixed Can you imagine TvP? Phoenix/Colossi isn't that common (it's been used a bit), but that sort of army composition is already one of the hardest to beat. Now you're suggesting to make it even stronger? I'm not going to deny that you're a better player than me, and perhaps that is the appropriate answer to the Mutalisk problem, but it would really mess up TvP. David Kim, while I don't agree with everything he says, has a very good point that changing one thing like that can greatly affect the entire metagame in multiple match-ups. I think we should revisit IdrA's old solution, but tweak it a bit: + Show Spoiler +"Remove [Protoss] from the game." I mean, let's face it, most of these problems deal with Protoss anyways... But on a more serious note, I think that it's silly to talk about the GSL. I know that this is a hypothetical situation and there's far too many variables to actually account for everything, but seeing as over half of the GSLs have been won by Mvp or NesTea, I think that this argument has some merit: If NesTea or Mvp were to have played Protoss, Zerg, or Terran. They would be a successful progamer. They are determined, their RTS experience goes back a long time, they have experience playing games on stage, and frankly, they're on a superior level to everyone else.
Im not convinced it would affect pvt that bad. Vikings dont clump up like mutas do. You would just have to be careful about medivac positioning
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On January 26 2012 04:38 meltingmykohchoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:34 NMHU. wrote:
''Terran Can’t Beat Protoss''
''Ghost EMP is Too Weak''
As a protoss player, I only have to say : ''lol''
- NMHU. Thank you hmmm Terran cant beat protoss lololol Emp... Same aoe as storm. Does damage instantly, impossible to dodge also takes energy in aoe / feed back only does 1 unit and costs 2/3rds of the gas. ghosts take 75 gas to tech to. (tech lab n ghost academy) Fuck lets all just play terran!!
Ghosts take 40 seconds to build.
High Templar take 5.
Ghosts can only build from a Barracks that has a Tech Lab attached to it.
High Templar can build anywhere within a pylon radius.
EMP does a good job against HT tech--if you micro better than the Protoss--while Ghosts are much less useful against builds in which the Protoss gets Colossi sooner. If a Terran tries to get Ghosts, and the Protoss gets Colossi, timing attacks off of two bases can be devastating because there's almost no way that the Terran can have Vikings to deal with Colossi and upgrades to deal with the massive army.
High Templar, on the other hand, do very well against everything in the Terran arsenal. Against Ghosts, you have to micro better, but Ghosts are not a "hard counter" to HTs; it all comes down to who controls better (unless Protoss makes a mistake, in which case that's their fault). Not only do Storm and Archon deal well with any sort of bio push, but Feedback devastates all Terran tech. Thors, Banshees, Ravens, Battlecruisers, Medivacs. All of them get demolished by Feedback in the same way that Snipe can demolish Zerg tech late game; the difference: Feedback is a one click wonder that takes next to nothing to do.
EMP targets ground, meaning that in an HT vs Ghost 1v1 fight, while the EMP can hit first, for all intents and purposes the Terran has to control far better and control well. The Protoss just has to click to Feedback the Ghost, then it flies to the Ghost and the second it's in range, the Ghost dies. Plus, if the HT has 150+ energy, then the Feedback is near impossible to stop, even if it does not do the killing blow to the Ghost.
Try putting your High Templar in a Warp Prism; it's not the hardest micro, it's not like controlling a big Chargelot/Colossi ball is that difficult, and frankly it almost guarantees that you will get off some storms. Good storms in conjunction with Chargelots will beat Terran.
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EPT
