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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
ok, so Huk gave up a bad position, but who is metroSG? And can anyone argue that he played particularly well? I know him. hes a GM terran on EU and he clicks all upgrades and clicks many other things and got low apm and bad macro + average micro. Wouldnt say hes good at all. | ||
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Mr. Black
United States470 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302136 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304188 "Units die too fast." "There's no way to hold map control." "Deathballs, waah." "One battle decides every game." What RTS (besides SC:BW) should be the model here? If you don't like deathballs, don't use them -- spreading out actually works pretty well. PLAY THE GAME BETTER. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On January 21 2012 03:04 Mataza wrote: I´m gonna cite Day[9]: "The system is never flawed" (some other stuff) I might not have said it outright yet, but you seem to be just another balancewhiner. Have a nice day. Day[9] was talking about mentality. My mentality is fine in game. I'm not posting this because "this stinks and it's total BS I don't win more". My post really has nothing to do with me or my play (I suck, and I'll admit that as I have in other threads I post in). It more has to do with the game we have, the game as it could be, and how to resolve the differences between the two. This has NOTHING to do with balance. The game as it is is not built to rely on a moderate defender's advantage - it's built to be "he who attacks with more of the right stuff wins". That's what it seems like now, anyway. On January 21 2012 03:26 Steel wrote: I would have no problem with protoss not having warpgates if you want (I'm Zerg). Obviously, QQ, Protoss cannot attack and be aggressive anymore. What you're asking for here is to have a defenders advantage, and still have your (enormous) attackers advantage. All comes at a price. Besides, this lack of defenders advantage only applies in the very early game. As soon as you have sentries, on any map with a ramp or choke, an attacker shouldn't break you. I literally can NEVER attack protoss as Zerg if their army is at their base. Then, when you look at drops, as soon as you spot it you can warp in units to give you time to bring your army back. What do other races do? Just run away and take damage. Warp gates, and the ability to instantly warp in units, is a HUGE attacking AND defending ability. Let's you took a hidden base, have no units there and the terran drops it. If you're on 3 bases, you have enough warpgates to stop the drop cold, maybe losing a couple probes. Now let's look at the zerg perspective: A Terran or Protoss drops my hidden base. I doubt I can get units there in time to stop the drop from killing all my drones and my base, and besides zerglings dont fare too well against zealots, or marines. So, you have immediate access to several units for defense, and you're saying "this mechanic drastically reduces defender’s advantage." Okay, maybe for 1 base pushes (which you stop losing to pretty quickly). Otherwise, it's a huge advantage. I'm not saying Protoss isn't good. Obviously they are. If you need evidence, watch any of the 8 protoss who made to to Code S this time around. I'm saying warpin has a weird affect on defender's advantage that hurts matchups both in their favor and against their favor. On January 21 2012 04:21 Mr. Black wrote: How many times this week is this thread going to be made? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302136 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304188 "Units die too fast." "There's no way to hold map control." "Deathballs, waah." "One battle decides every game." What RTS (besides SC:BW) should be the model here? If you don't like deathballs, don't use them -- spreading out actually works pretty well. PLAY THE GAME BETTER. Good point. Why would I try to think when I can practice? Those two activities totally fill the same role for me. Also, making a thread about defense is very much like making threads about unit mechanics or units which have really high dps. Is your complaint that we're all talking about the same game here, or that we're all thinking critically about said game? On January 21 2012 03:45 Zombo Joe wrote: If there were Lurkers, Spider Mines/Better Tanks and Shield Batteries/Reavers we would have all the defender's advantage we need. Blizzard howerver insists on adding gimmicks like Swarm Hosts, Shredders and the Cannon spell. As of right now the only defenses that provide significant defenders advantage are bunkers with mass repair, forcefields on chokes, spines with mass transfuse. Outside of defending, none of these can be used effectively for attacking. In the late game they also fall flat to deathballs. Agreed - that makes two ideas I like for adding defensiveness to the game without that we've seen in the past hasn't been gamebreaking - the type that was in WC3 and the type that was in BW. | ||
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R3DT1D3
285 Posts
The sad part is that the current game won't really support change well. The highground mechanic has been beaten to death since beta, warpgate has had too much work put in to be scrapped and rebalanced, and I don't think Blizzard understands how to make defendable areas other than chokes/ramps. Also, blink stalker + colossus ball with warpgate reinforcements pretty much destroys any defender advantage you mentioned. | ||
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eoLithic
Norway221 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5225 Posts
On January 21 2012 04:25 R3DT1D3 wrote:...and I don't think Blizzard understands how to make defendable areas other than chokes/ramps. Blizzard has more trick of their sleeve... Collapsible rocks! As if Destructible rocks to block people from playing macro games weren't bad enough... On January 21 2012 03:30 Omsomsoms wrote: Edit: Holy shit TheBronzeKnee, Coming of the Horde was my absolute favorite WC3 map :O Thanks! | ||
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Alacast
United States205 Posts
There is no harm in speculation, thinking out loud, or exploring various potential causes for what a person sees as being a problem with the game. Furthermore, as many have so astutely pointed out, these threads won't change the game, and are more often than not, a vehicle for discussing strategies and tactics in a roundabout way. It's just the way people think, and if you want to be constructive and informative, try understanding their point of view and responding in kind. If you think the game is just fine, explain why that is rather than just bashing peoples' thought-out and unique posts. | ||
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
The matchup were you see most from the defenders advantage is ZvZ? That's just how I feel about it! Then again. We're all very bad at this game at this moment and if you give Sc2 another year I'm sure that the timings will be more figured out and you'll see the defender benefit more from defending | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
I am fine with the defenders advantage now, but i disliked that they nerfed the early game so heavily until the defenders advantage became so enormous, that early aggression is almost deadly if the opponent isn't greedy. | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
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Treehead
999 Posts
On January 21 2012 04:30 Alacast wrote: People get so offended when others' express their thoughts and opinions and it baffles me. There is no harm in speculation, thinking out loud, or exploring various potential causes for what a person sees as being a problem with the game. Furthermore, as many have so astutely pointed out, these threads won't change the game, and are more often than not, a vehicle for discussing strategies and tactics in a roundabout way. It's just the way people think, and if you want to be constructive and informative, try understanding their point of view and responding in kind. If you think the game is just fine, explain why that is rather than just bashing peoples' thought-out and unique posts. Some people just only know how to think critically when they're angry at something, so they imagine when I talk about SC2 in any way other than complimentary that I'm really saying "Hey, y'know what sucks? THIS GAME! Y'know what's awesome? ME!" It really doesn't matter how many times you say that this isn't what you mean, until a person is able to think critically about something while also appreciating it, they will not be able to understand that this is what I'm doing. It's how empathy works, and at some point it's something we just have to live with, whether it's frustrating or not. Thanks for appreciating my post.  | ||
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kanada
Canada255 Posts
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On January 21 2012 04:05 HwangjaeTerran wrote: Hello, this is Lee Young Ho and I fully agree with this statement. But Lucifer you got nice mine drags :D Was that offense or defense? :D kekeke | ||
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OpticalShot
Canada6330 Posts
Defender's advantage should allow well-positioned and prepared army of 90 supply to overcome a hasty, over-zealous, spam a-moving attacking army of 120 supply. It means that there will be greater room for multi-tasking; in other words, higher skill ceiling. It means more and more professional players will learn to overcome build-order disadvantages through fantastic multi-tasking and micromanagement. Well, that's at least how I see it. | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On January 21 2012 03:04 Mataza wrote: I´m gonna cite Day[9]: "The system is never flawed" My opinion is that there already is defender´s advantage. Basically an even bigger defender´s advantage would also mean that it is unreasonable to attack early on. Right now, pressure builds exist because Defenders advantage is not overwhelming. Typical rush builds lose if the first attack isn´t successful(obvious). Right now, SC2 games begin at about the time where the first feasible oppurtunity for aggression is. If there was no feasible alternative to a greedy start, you could just fast forward this part of gameplay because its always the same(That´s why Blizzard gives you now 6 workers instead of the 4 you got in SC:BW). Taking your Huk replay, he did not scout for an attack and his army was out of position. All he needed to do was keep a probe or a stalker at his opponents ramp or keep his army in the right spot. But he didn´t. He *could* have delayed the attack with 5 forcefields or engaged in equal terrain. Instead he had to crawl down a ramp which is in range of 3 Tanks. Tl;dr: The issue isn´t as big as you make it be. Huk lost in this game because of mistakes, like lack of scouting. Remember that Blizzard already announced changes do that end for HotS(summons a cannon on building). I might not have said it outright yet, but you seem to be just another balancewhiner. Have a nice day. God. What a way to end your post. First off, Day9 isn't fucking Jesus. He has to talk positively about the game because it's his income. Can you imagine if Day9 started saying things like "Holy shit, is that ever OP!" it'd look bad, and it'd be bad for his business. His entire job is predicated on him being "the guy who always has an answer" and he is the unofficial spokesperson for the game, I'd say. He has to be unbiased - but I shit you not, if you could sit down with him for a drink "off-the-record" he'd probably have a few choice words about certain units/strats. Second, the replay in question is just one example out of tonnes. You may be right, scouting might have been a problem - but I can cite you other examples where it wasn't a problem, and the defender just gets sodomized all the same. I don't see it a problem for people to point out issues in the game. We all want it to be better. It's lunacy to think this game is fine - it's not. This game is nowhere near as deep as BW (enter "but this isn't brood war" squeals here). Third, OP wrote a really good, well-thought post, and you reduce him to a "balancewhiner." Seriously? That's pretty weak. | ||
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Hdizz
Canada93 Posts
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On January 21 2012 04:21 Mr. Black wrote: How many times this week is this thread going to be made? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302136 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304188 "Units die too fast." "There's no way to hold map control." "Deathballs, waah." "One battle decides every game." What RTS (besides SC:BW) should be the model here? If you don't like deathballs, don't use them -- spreading out actually works pretty well. PLAY THE GAME BETTER. Spreading out against a deathball makes it stronger. Unless you're being facetious and you're suggesting the offensive player spreads out their deathball for the sake of courtesy - then why bother playing to win. Also, SC:BW should be the model here. It's the best RTS of all time and the precursor to SC2. It is also leagues better than SC2 in terms of balance, strategy and tactics - and was so when it was the same age SC2 is now. God forbid anyone suggest that here, though. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
In addition, the techniques of zoning I think are going to ramp up HUGELY in HotS. The Viper, Shredder, Swarm Host, and Oracle are all going to be absolutely key in gaining control of certain areas and pushing back forces. In addition, Recall/Arc Cannon on the Nexus as well as Ultralisk Burrow Charge, Burrow-move Banelings, Battle Hellion mode, etc. are all going to impact the viability of simply 'smashing armies together'. I don't think we want to overthink the defender's advantage situation in too much detail. Chess is a great example of how not attempting to improve the defender didn't actually decrease the viability of defense. The last major rule change in terms of pieces was the addition of a couple of things: Queens now moving anywhere, and Bishops gaining the ability to hit multiple squares. Also, en passant was added, which is in fact a 'nerf' to defense, since you can no longer block forward pawns from pawn reinforcement if your opponent doesn't let you. The amount of attacking traps and minefields you can lay for the defender is astounding, yet, even today, the first move advantage that White gets still does not creep up over 55% (I think - it's not exact, so don't quote me on that number). Chess is as complex and strategically rich today as it has ever been, without fundamental changes to give defenders an advantage. | ||
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