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On June 15 2012 13:01 stoicRegret wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 12:54 6xFPCs wrote:On June 15 2012 03:54 stoicRegret wrote:On June 15 2012 03:24 6xFPCs wrote:On June 12 2012 01:19 stoicRegret wrote:
Hey guys, if you have any questions about the recent MLG games (especially strategies and decisions made by DRG, stephano, Symbol, and violet), we can go over them in the next VODs or simply ask them here in the forums.
We haven't been getting many views as of late, compiled with Shawn being out of the country for a week; the next VODs will be a while i feel. For those of you who keep watching, thank you so much!
- A sad panda Regret Care to comment on that ultra bling infestor pincer that stephano did to mkp? It's in the TL recap as a gif even, so I watched it a few times just there, and it feels.. not replicable. MKP ran on creep and was caught unsieged, so it was more MKP making a bad call (I don't know the context) instead of stephano being brilliant. Also, did you watch the kespa pros? they seem to really like launching ITs from burrowed infestors under the Terran army, which feels like stephano's old IT-led ultralisk-infestor-ling attacks. i feel like those infestors are basicalky getting thrown away doing the burrowed approach though (terran will scan 95% of the time they see eggs appear), any thoughts? Hihi, Stephano always plays this strategy vs terran. Let me just generalize Stephano's playstyle as a whole: Stephano does not win vs high level players due to his builds. He is purely winning from his unique (probably the best at this) ability to take these extremely narrow victories through 1-2 amazing decisions. A lot of his games comes down to what I call a one-luck moment. However, even though the word lucky is used to describe these engagements, he is constantly putting himself in situations that create the opportunity for this to happen. That way, when this occurs 4-5 times a game, he is bound to get an edge off of his amazing play rather than the strategy itself. Stephano does not prepare for matches, and his builds should definitely not be copied as they actually make no sense if your opponent plays a certain way. As for the game on entombed valley (you didn't mention which game you were refering to, so i assumed), yes MKP did screw up. But the game was not won by MKP at all. The map was very large, and stephano would probably not engage unless it was favourable in the first place. The kespa pros are a prime example of good mechanics meets "I have no idea what I'm doing". Everything they did was similar to when normal GM players were figuring out how to play sc2 at the masters level. If you use ITs while engageing, there is no reason to lose the infestors. If you are using this trick and not engageing, then yes, he will scan and kill your infestors. So don't do that. Mm I like the way you describe stephano's zvt, I've had trouble being able to explain his style. I think you're assuming the correct game. Thanks for the insight. I will stick to BLs, still feels more stable to me than ultras. Yeah I did see flashes of "old" styles more than anything else. I still feel that just lobbing ITs from infestors within your army is still the better way to soak up tank shots. My point about losing the burrowed infestors is that when the Terran scans, those infestors are the closest targets for a decent portion of the Terran army, which means they die almost instantly, even if you're already running in with the rest of your army. I guess it's a minor issue in the end, I was mostly just hoping that either jaedong or soulkey would show up with something cool. How do you feel about DRG's run? He stated in a recent interview (not sure if before or after MLG) that ZvT is now zerg's to lose, and that if he plays perfectly, he will win. I guess I'm just tiptoeing around the question, so I'll just ask it: what do you think of the queen buff? Ah, yes you are correct attributing the queen buff to the recent surge in zerg dominance (in the pro scene). Zerg has found that the ability to spread creep so efficiently allows you to comfortably get into the mid game tier army with extreme safety. This becomes very difficult for the terran player to determine whether they should play aggresive or defensively, as mass banlings destroys new-style high tech strategies, whereas defensive play is destroyed by quick hive tech strategies. Poor terrans  As for DRG, he never misses an inject. Oh my god how amazing his injects are. This is why he is one of the only zergs to consistently go mutas in both ZvT and ZvP: the ability to barely kill off the terran army with 1-2 more ling rotations is the differnece between winning and losing. Otherwise, infestor play is a lot easier! Especially when going roaches! If you have over 20 roaches, you don't even notice if you miss an inject... I'm not saying that I'm promoting poor injecting play, but it is more practical to play infestors if you don't hit your injects. That's about it.
Yeah, I've noticed the muta-ling inject thing as I start to play better Terrans. Roaches are my go-to unit when low on larvae, but it often leads to a slower transition to hive because of the gas. Plus, a roach backbone protects your infestors; I hate the razor-thin margin of safety that an all-ling army maintains for its infestor support. One bad a-move in response to a drop can lose you a lot of infestors.
I've actually been not immediately adding morphing infestors (i.e. in egg form) to control groups and just letting 2-3 pool energy at the rally point. This gives me a backup set to use should I lose the army, similar to how DRG always morphs a few banes before he attacks--those new banes are necessary to hold back a stim-marine counter. After you have 6+ infestors, leaving out a pair doesn't seem to weaken my army too much--if anything, lots of non-pro zergs get too fungal-happy and misuse the energy. Thoughts? I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm just better off macroing better and being careful with the push, but you could say the same about the whole idea of DRG using mutas because if you can inject perfectly it's better--maybe safer is better, but at what point do you call yourself out on just falling into bad play?
More on DRG, in his ZvP, i'm hearing that he likes to threaten roach-max then switch to muta? didn't see enough of the MLG games yet, but I like the idea because of the blind immortal-sentry into third that I've been seeing, and I heard this muta switch after roaches was credited as nestea's idea originally. Do you ever do any muta switch off an small early roach army? Or is it better to just re-expo and tech to BLs should he safely get his third? Mutas still feel iffy to me in ZvP because of the ridiculous gas cost (except on TDA haha), but I'm trying to convince myself to keep them in mind when facing seriously dedicated immortal sentry (I'm thinking about all gas getting dumped into immortals and sentries, zeal mineral dump).
Sorry for the rambling. Hope your boards went/are going well (you guys have board exams in canada yeah?).
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On June 15 2012 15:52 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 13:01 stoicRegret wrote:On June 15 2012 12:54 6xFPCs wrote:On June 15 2012 03:54 stoicRegret wrote:On June 15 2012 03:24 6xFPCs wrote:On June 12 2012 01:19 stoicRegret wrote:
Hey guys, if you have any questions about the recent MLG games (especially strategies and decisions made by DRG, stephano, Symbol, and violet), we can go over them in the next VODs or simply ask them here in the forums.
We haven't been getting many views as of late, compiled with Shawn being out of the country for a week; the next VODs will be a while i feel. For those of you who keep watching, thank you so much!
- A sad panda Regret Care to comment on that ultra bling infestor pincer that stephano did to mkp? It's in the TL recap as a gif even, so I watched it a few times just there, and it feels.. not replicable. MKP ran on creep and was caught unsieged, so it was more MKP making a bad call (I don't know the context) instead of stephano being brilliant. Also, did you watch the kespa pros? they seem to really like launching ITs from burrowed infestors under the Terran army, which feels like stephano's old IT-led ultralisk-infestor-ling attacks. i feel like those infestors are basicalky getting thrown away doing the burrowed approach though (terran will scan 95% of the time they see eggs appear), any thoughts? Hihi, Stephano always plays this strategy vs terran. Let me just generalize Stephano's playstyle as a whole: Stephano does not win vs high level players due to his builds. He is purely winning from his unique (probably the best at this) ability to take these extremely narrow victories through 1-2 amazing decisions. A lot of his games comes down to what I call a one-luck moment. However, even though the word lucky is used to describe these engagements, he is constantly putting himself in situations that create the opportunity for this to happen. That way, when this occurs 4-5 times a game, he is bound to get an edge off of his amazing play rather than the strategy itself. Stephano does not prepare for matches, and his builds should definitely not be copied as they actually make no sense if your opponent plays a certain way. As for the game on entombed valley (you didn't mention which game you were refering to, so i assumed), yes MKP did screw up. But the game was not won by MKP at all. The map was very large, and stephano would probably not engage unless it was favourable in the first place. The kespa pros are a prime example of good mechanics meets "I have no idea what I'm doing". Everything they did was similar to when normal GM players were figuring out how to play sc2 at the masters level. If you use ITs while engageing, there is no reason to lose the infestors. If you are using this trick and not engageing, then yes, he will scan and kill your infestors. So don't do that. Mm I like the way you describe stephano's zvt, I've had trouble being able to explain his style. I think you're assuming the correct game. Thanks for the insight. I will stick to BLs, still feels more stable to me than ultras. Yeah I did see flashes of "old" styles more than anything else. I still feel that just lobbing ITs from infestors within your army is still the better way to soak up tank shots. My point about losing the burrowed infestors is that when the Terran scans, those infestors are the closest targets for a decent portion of the Terran army, which means they die almost instantly, even if you're already running in with the rest of your army. I guess it's a minor issue in the end, I was mostly just hoping that either jaedong or soulkey would show up with something cool. How do you feel about DRG's run? He stated in a recent interview (not sure if before or after MLG) that ZvT is now zerg's to lose, and that if he plays perfectly, he will win. I guess I'm just tiptoeing around the question, so I'll just ask it: what do you think of the queen buff? Ah, yes you are correct attributing the queen buff to the recent surge in zerg dominance (in the pro scene). Zerg has found that the ability to spread creep so efficiently allows you to comfortably get into the mid game tier army with extreme safety. This becomes very difficult for the terran player to determine whether they should play aggresive or defensively, as mass banlings destroys new-style high tech strategies, whereas defensive play is destroyed by quick hive tech strategies. Poor terrans As for DRG, he never misses an inject. Oh my god how amazing his injects are. This is why he is one of the only zergs to consistently go mutas in both ZvT and ZvP: the ability to barely kill off the terran army with 1-2 more ling rotations is the differnece between winning and losing. Otherwise, infestor play is a lot easier! Especially when going roaches! If you have over 20 roaches, you don't even notice if you miss an inject... I'm not saying that I'm promoting poor injecting play, but it is more practical to play infestors if you don't hit your injects. That's about it. Yeah, I've noticed the muta-ling inject thing as I start to play better Terrans. Roaches are my go-to unit when low on larvae, but it often leads to a slower transition to hive because of the gas. Plus, a roach backbone protects your infestors; I hate the razor-thin margin of safety that an all-ling army maintains for its infestor support. One bad a-move in response to a drop can lose you a lot of infestors. I've actually been not immediately adding morphing infestors (i.e. in egg form) to control groups and just letting 2-3 pool energy at the rally point. This gives me a backup set to use should I lose the army, similar to how DRG always morphs a few banes before he attacks--those new banes are necessary to hold back a stim-marine counter. After you have 6+ infestors, leaving out a pair doesn't seem to weaken my army too much--if anything, lots of non-pro zergs get too fungal-happy and misuse the energy. Thoughts? I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm just better off macroing better and being careful with the push, but you could say the same about the whole idea of DRG using mutas because if you can inject perfectly it's better--maybe safer is better, but at what point do you call yourself out on just falling into bad play? More on DRG, in his ZvP, i'm hearing that he likes to threaten roach-max then switch to muta? didn't see enough of the MLG games yet, but I like the idea because of the blind immortal-sentry into third that I've been seeing, and I heard this muta switch after roaches was credited as nestea's idea originally. Do you ever do any muta switch off an small early roach army? Or is it better to just re-expo and tech to BLs should he safely get his third? Mutas still feel iffy to me in ZvP because of the ridiculous gas cost (except on TDA haha), but I'm trying to convince myself to keep them in mind when facing seriously dedicated immortal sentry (I'm thinking about all gas getting dumped into immortals and sentries, zeal mineral dump). Sorry for the rambling. Hope your boards went/are going well (you guys have board exams in canada yeah?).
Leaving units in locations to deal with drops is essentially a confidence thing. It is very difficult to draw the line; I mean, i could say that if i had an army of 10 roaches, leaving 1 in my main is not a big deal, and if i had 20 roaches, leaving 3 roaches in my main would still leave me with 17 roaches. And if i had 40 roaches, leaving 5 in my main would still leave me with 35 roaches... It is an argument that really has no end. In essense, I want the maximum number of units together if I am goign to be aggresive, and i want to spread my units perfectly if i wnat to be defensive. I woudlnt create a build that designates X number of units to be in X location at X time in order to defend X aggression... simply determine what your goal is in the next 2 minutes, and allocate your resources and units accordingly. For example, if I am going to all-in, i will put 100% of my units into the attack, regardless of what my opponent is threatening.
DRG's ZvP opening is very different from players who rely on heaving roach maxing strategies (stephano, infestor based play styles). I don't want to go too detailed in this post as it would take too long, but in a nutshell, taking 3 gas at 50 supply is a lot better for mutas than taking 2 gas at 40 supply. The latter build allows you to max roach at the 11 minute mark, whereas DRG's opening allows you to easily go into 6 gasses if you decide to go into mutas. However, don't forget, DRG's late 3 gasses makes it very difficult to hold off 2 base pushes... so take your pick! I suggest doing a double gas at 40 to start off with, since DRG's opening means you have to know exaclty when you build spines and exactly where.
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Are there any styles (perhaps such as mutas in ZvT and ZvP and mass lings in ZvZ) that you would advocate for the sake of improving fundamentally as a player? Or do you think it is as efficient in the long term (at my low master level for instance) to practice say the easier infestor style vs. terran?
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On June 16 2012 00:05 Catatafish wrote:
Are there any styles (perhaps such as mutas in ZvT and ZvP and mass lings in ZvZ) that you would advocate for the sake of improving fundamentally as a player? Or do you think it is as efficient in the long term (at my low master level for instance) to practice say the easier infestor style vs. terran?
Any type of defensive 3 base play is great for mechanics at the low masters level. I would suggest doing baneling 3rd base exspanding in ZvZ, into roaches, standard 3 base play vs ZvP into either roach/ling/infestor or roach/ling/muta, and 3 base ling/infestor/roach vs ZvT trying to get into ultras or BLs.
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Hey David, in a recent VOD about mass ling style in ZvZ you said taht you were able to hold any kind of 10 pool while opening 15 hatch/ 17 pool. So do you talk only about 10 pool because you feel that an earlier pool is not a threat at all? Could you either upload the replays of your holds or explain basically what is the correct answer to a 10 pool while being so grredy?
Because, when I get 10 pooled, I just have no clue what I am supposed to do, like, should I fight with drones, should I try to avoid his lings while waiting for mines, should I build spines, should I cancel my expand?
I feel it might be dependant on which variation of 10 pool you face but if you could give me the basic guidelines, that would be great.
Thank you for your answer, your amazing vods, and the dedication you put into this thread.
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On June 16 2012 22:54 Aelendis wrote:
Hey David, in a recent VOD about mass ling style in ZvZ you said taht you were able to hold any kind of 10 pool while opening 15 hatch/ 17 pool. So do you talk only about 10 pool because you feel that an earlier pool is not a threat at all? Could you either upload the replays of your holds or explain basically what is the correct answer to a 10 pool while being so grredy?
Because, when I get 10 pooled, I just have no clue what I am supposed to do, like, should I fight with drones, should I try to avoid his lings while waiting for mines, should I build spines, should I cancel my expand?
I feel it might be dependant on which variation of 10 pool you face but if you could give me the basic guidelines, that would be great.
Thank you for your answer, your amazing vods, and the dedication you put into this thread.
Not to worry, we have something special planned for ZvZ 10 pools and below.
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Shawn comes back tomorrow right? ^^
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On June 18 2012 02:56 romelako wrote:
Shawn comes back tomorrow right? ^^
Yep shawn's back!
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you guys should do the ZvZ between symbol and Leenock at MLG anahiem. for the ZvZ ling infestor style from the pros. please 
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i CANT wait until you show how to defend 10 pools, i really hope it is the 10 drone all in haha everygame on ladder.....
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On June 19 2012 15:24 ErrorNA wrote:you guys should do the ZvZ between symbol and Leenock at MLG anahiem. for the ZvZ ling infestor style from the pros. please
...and how to beat it without banelings. 
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On June 20 2012 09:28 smwatkin wrote:
10 POOL WEEK!!
omg omg wb btw. how was your trip?
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Pretty solid. In sweden almost everyone is blonde, they eat reindeer, and the food is amazing.
The sun barely goes down for more than a couple of hours.
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Blah blah blah blah blah new vods up trmw blah blah blah.
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Holding off on 10 pool. We have 3 VODs to upload (happening now) but only 1 10 pool VOD. We lost all of the replays accidentally, so need to make more.
Tried to make some last night with Spiky but we're out of practice. I can't 10 pool (because I'm not an asshole) and Spiky only knows a couple of varitions. Patience grasshoppers.
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it says the videos are private and it wont let me watch...
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Hold tight. They're just editing and then I'll make them public.
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She's all set. NEW VODS ARE ON THE MAIN PAGE!!
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EPT
