EPTperfect mass muta map
Is rocks on 3rd just bad map design? - Page 14
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
freetgy
1720 Posts
perfect mass muta map | ||
|
Strike_
Netherlands704 Posts
| ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 04 2012 07:37 Falcor wrote: Really so all the other maps where the 3rds aren't blocked zerg just dominate??? The reason rocks are bad is it just limits gameplay for really no upside. They say it diversifys play styles but it limits them.instead of thinking oh whats zerg going to do you know his 3rd is blocked so he has to do x opener. While if it wasn't blocked he still could open like the last situation but now he has a choice not to well but the solution to this is not to remove rocks, but to remove the map. TDA as it is is already quite good for us zergs. without rocks the stats might just go nuts. same for Terminus. while you can say that ladder TDA was a blizzard invention for ladderplay, GSL TDA and Terminus with rocks are not. furthermore your argument is true for every map in which fast thirds are far away in the first place like Crossfire. also how is the rocks argument any different from a protoss complaining about open naturals (so theoretically his only viavle builds are gateway expands or FFE+stargate to be safe vs roaches) or a terran complaining about neutral depots so he cant do a lowground block (or a thousanf more mapspecific features that limit gameplay). all of those features limit a race but can be balanced out with other mapfeatures. not to say that rocks aren't annoying for me as a zerg, but so are ramps and noone is questioning them. | ||
|
Angel_
United States1617 Posts
On January 04 2012 07:37 Falcor wrote: Really so all the other maps where the 3rds aren't blocked zerg just dominate??? The reason rocks are bad is it just limits gameplay for really no upside. They say it diversifys play styles but it limits them.instead of thinking oh whats zerg going to do you know his 3rd is blocked so he has to do x opener. While if it wasn't blocked he still could open like the last situation but now he has a choice not to That and in some of situations, like taldarim, the zerg actually still can take his third right beside the rocks as his future macro hatch and long distance mine while lings kill the rocks slowly and i dont think it actually REALLY changes too too much. or they can take that wierd hard to defend fourth below/above their main if they want to be risky. end point, it doesn't actually STOP them from doing quick thirds on all maps anyway, so it doesn't even work to "force" creativity anyway (which i think is a terrible design strategy anyway). | ||
|
Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On January 04 2012 08:19 Big J wrote: not to say that rocks aren't annoying for me as a zerg, but so are ramps and noone is questioning them. That is a good way to put things in perspective too. Ramps are tolerable because they are a great design feature. While they can be annoying for Zerg more-so than the other races, all races (including Zerg) have ways to utilize ramps in both offensive and defensive manner. Good feature. Rocks are not innately bad, but placing them in positions to block the obvious option for a 3rd base is specifically anti-Zerg, thus making it a bad feature. While rocks blocking bases is mildly annoying for all races, Zerg is the only race that will commonly aim toward taking a 3rd base BEFORE making combat units. Over the course of this thread, my mind has been made up that yes, it is bad map design, and the reason it is bad is because it is a map feature that specifically targets one race while having very little influence over the others. Xel'Naga towers would be more similar to ramps. Love them or hate them, all races CAN utilize them and they don't particularly favor/disfavor any one race with their current implementation, making them a good feature overall. | ||
|
NightHawk929
79 Posts
| ||
|
Orzabal
France287 Posts
On January 04 2012 12:10 Jermstuddog wrote: Xel'Naga towers would be more similar to ramps. Love them or hate them, all races CAN utilize them and they don't particularly favor/disfavor any one race with their current implementation, making them a good feature overall. I disagree. XelNaga tower favoring siege tank positionning. I think more map wihout Xel Naga and Rock on expantion are needed. Rock to block certain way or reduce ramp size are good I think. | ||
|
Shiori
3815 Posts
On January 04 2012 12:10 Jermstuddog wrote: That is a good way to put things in perspective too. Ramps are tolerable because they are a great design feature. While they can be annoying for Zerg more-so than the other races, all races (including Zerg) have ways to utilize ramps in both offensive and defensive manner. Good feature. Rocks are not innately bad, but placing them in positions to block the obvious option for a 3rd base is specifically anti-Zerg, thus making it a bad feature. While rocks blocking bases is mildly annoying for all races, Zerg is the only race that will commonly aim toward taking a 3rd base BEFORE making combat units. Over the course of this thread, my mind has been made up that yes, it is bad map design, and the reason it is bad is because it is a map feature that specifically targets one race while having very little influence over the others. Xel'Naga towers would be more similar to ramps. Love them or hate them, all races CAN utilize them and they don't particularly favor/disfavor any one race with their current implementation, making them a good feature overall. It's because open thirds off essentially nothing to any race except Zerg and allowing Zergs to take really easy early third (like on Meta) is what makes the Z win percentages unnecessarily high. | ||
|
GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On January 04 2012 12:10 Jermstuddog wrote: Rocks are not innately bad, but placing them in positions to block the obvious option for a 3rd base is specifically anti-Zerg, thus making it a bad feature. While rocks blocking bases is mildly annoying for all races, Zerg is the only race that will commonly aim toward taking a 3rd base BEFORE making combat units. Uh. No. Taking a 3rd before making combat units is absolutely stupid-maybe in bronze league, but anywhere else you'll die Rocks on 3rd->everybody has to kill rocks to take 3rd->EVERYBODY has to kill rocks And like others have said, you can just put a macro hatch there and have slightly ineffecient mining while you wait for the rocks to die. It's not a problem | ||
|
FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On January 16 2012 03:11 Active.815 wrote: Uh. No. Taking a 3rd before making combat units is absolutely stupid-maybe in bronze league, but anywhere else you'll die lol maybe you dont play/watch at a very high level. you've honestly never seen a zerg do a 30-35 supply 3rd in response to FFE, in which they've only made perhaps 2 lings, or none whatsoever? really? your other points are thoughtless enough to not require any further comments. | ||
|
ddrddrddrddr
1344 Posts
| ||
| ||
