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On January 02 2012 15:16 Lord_J wrote:
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with rocks at a third. Whether it makes for bad map design depends on how it fits in with the rest of the map. That said, I don't think I've yet seen the map that's better for having rocks at the third.
I think I can give ya that much.
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get rid of rocks. they are stupid and a waste of time. It narrows the build orders and id love to make double CC againts zerg.
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I think people are forgetting.
If you looked at Terminus when it Had no rocks. Protoss was the heavy favorite on that map.
Rocks at the third in my opinion are meant to prevent quick three hatch, and even more so to prevent protoss from teching and taking a third which if goes unscouted is too strong.
Rocks at the third HELP zerg players. If you play zerg and want to macro game. You should be open to expanding at locations strategically thought out.
In ZvT taking a third is something you need to do with forces, because otherwise 1 marine squad can deny that hatch.
In ZvP rocks can be annoying on certain maps like shattered temple, but to counter that, the open natural is also annoying to wall off.
Arguing about Rocks in map balance is interesting, but truthfully I think we need more maps in the ladder pool to make these kinds of problems more situational.
I'm still waiting for a gold mineral only map, I think this would shatter peoples minds.
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On January 02 2012 17:54 tdynasty wrote:
I think people are forgetting.
If you looked at Terminus when it Had no rocks. Protoss was the heavy favorite on that map.
Rocks at the third in my opinion are meant to prevent quick three hatch, and even more so to prevent protoss from teching and taking a third which if goes unscouted is too strong.
Rocks at the third HELP zerg players. If you play zerg and want to macro game. You should be open to expanding at locations strategically thought out.
In ZvT taking a third is something you need to do with forces, because otherwise 1 marine squad can deny that hatch.
In ZvP rocks can be annoying on certain maps like shattered temple, but to counter that, the open natural is also annoying to wall off.
Arguing about Rocks in map balance is interesting, but truthfully I think we need more maps in the ladder pool to make these kinds of problems more situational.
I'm still waiting for a gold mineral only map, I think this would shatter peoples minds.
Protoss was nowhere near the heavy favorite in ZvP prior to the rock change. They won't be taking a third anywhere near as fast as Terran/Zerg under any circumstances, and previously there were rocks leading to there, which could easily be broken down.
Right now there are rocks at the third and the way there is sealed, hence that is one less point of entry for Toss to worry about.
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On January 02 2012 17:54 tdynasty wrote:
I think people are forgetting.
If you looked at Terminus when it Had no rocks. Protoss was the heavy favorite on that map.
Rocks at the third in my opinion are meant to prevent quick three hatch, and even more so to prevent protoss from teching and taking a third which if goes unscouted is too strong.
Rocks at the third HELP zerg players. If you play zerg and want to macro game. You should be open to expanding at locations strategically thought out.
In ZvT taking a third is something you need to do with forces, because otherwise 1 marine squad can deny that hatch.
In ZvP rocks can be annoying on certain maps like shattered temple, but to counter that, the open natural is also annoying to wall off.
Arguing about Rocks in map balance is interesting, but truthfully I think we need more maps in the ladder pool to make these kinds of problems more situational.
I'm still waiting for a gold mineral only map, I think this would shatter peoples minds.
Protoss was heavily disfavored in ZvP on old Terminus (though protoss was heavily disfavored in ZvP generally for a periode of time)
rocks in TvZ are the worst, because Terran doesnt need any change in bo (anx standard double expand bo still works) while zerg is limited to 2base muta, 2base infestor or 2base cheese.
that being said it still balances out on certain maps like TDA with the mutafriendlieness and the open spaces all over the map.
and generally you always want to take a third and then build your forces ad zerg in a 3hatch scenario. the rocks not only turn that upside down (often over a min of droning lost) but still delay your third by a min or so in which your investment (units) doesnt even provide mapcontrol, dropdefense or force another bunker. usually it shakes up build orders enough to make other builds superior to any form of early third.
gold only maps... i can imagine terran BOs: rax-->CC,CC,CC,CC,CC,CC,CC...
income rates
T: 10.000
P/Z: 2.500
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On January 02 2012 20:55 Big J wrote:
gold only maps... i can imagine terran BOs: rax-->CC,CC,CC,CC,CC,CC,CC...
income rates
T: 10.000
P/Z: 2.500
And now we know why GSL has removed gold bases from all their maps.
A feature that heavily influences one race while having little-to-no consequence for the other races is a feature that does not belong in competitive maps.
I think that statement applies to rocks on third and gold bases.
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On January 03 2012 00:03 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 20:55 Big J wrote:
gold only maps... i can imagine terran BOs: rax-->CC,CC,CC,CC,CC,CC,CC...
income rates
T: 10.000
P/Z: 2.500
And now we know why GSL has removed gold bases from all their maps. A feature that heavily influences one race while having little-to-no consequence for the other races is a feature that does not belong in competitive maps. I think that statement applies to rocks on third and gold bases.
nope... you can balance it out.
TDA is the perfect example for this. the map is sooo good for mutas (and ling/bling) that the map still is very good for zerg in ZvT.
if you can find a way to do this for gold only maps, i'm ok with them... but you won't find it without severly changing how a map should be played, therefore creating a completly new metagame and therefore such maps not becoming anything more than funmaps.
rocks are situational. they limit you to 2base or risky 3base, just like open fronts limit a terran to extra bunkers or risky expanding
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On January 02 2012 02:37 JackDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 02:19 Gemini_19 wrote:On January 01 2012 15:48 Phobbers wrote:On January 01 2012 15:45 Fred Flintstone wrote:On January 01 2012 15:25 Jermstuddog wrote:
I think it would be considered fair to say that rocks blocking bases is considered anti-zerg and pro-terran. If I am overstepping on my assumption here, let me know.
As the game evolves, double expand openers are becoming more and more common for zerg, and many maps put zerg in a horrible position simply due to there being rocks.
For those who don't now, 3 hatch before pool was a common opener in BW, so it's not unrealistic to expect the same in SC2.
Is rocks on 3rd bad for SC2 in general? or am i just a biased zerg? you're just a biased zerg. SC2 is not BW and rocks are there for a reason. if there are no rocks blocking the third, the zerg can way outmacro terran or protoss (mainly protoss) because of the larva inject mechanic. Or, the toss can kinda just scout it, and you know punish the zerg for being greedy? Or just take a quick 3rd of their own? The point is that a quick thirdis way more beneficial for a zerg then a protoss. If you see a very quick third base your best bet is to try and punish because you will never get even economicaly while still staying safe if you take a quick third. Remember that a third hatch is 1 more unit producing structure for zerg while protoss only can build workesr from the nexus reducing the units and unit producing structures drastically. Rocks at the third on taldarim gives the protos the ability to punish if zerg go for a quick third at a more vulnurable position.
Quick 3rd's for toss are RIDICULOUSLY beneficial. Of course you aren't getting a 5 minute 3rd or anything, but getting a 3rd at 9-10 minutes is REALLY good. If the zerg takes a quick 3rd, there's basically nothing they can really do to pressure a quick 3rd by you, so it's really easy to take that at that time. You just gotta know how to play it and have the proper defenses up in time. Then you can power off 3 bases for a long time if the map has a difficult 4th or even take a really quick 4th as well like that SlayerSBrown style.
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Lets just make maps that everything is covered in rocks. Must use your first workers to clear out rocks on your minerals, moving anywhere requires you to destroy rocks, and after you kill them they respawn 5 minutes after. Then all the rock lovers can be in rock heaven with more rocks than they know what to do with.
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I think rocks and gold expansions are terrible for zerg and maps that include them (taldarim and shattered in the ladder map pool) are in my book incredibly hard ZvP if tehy FFE and I dont have a safe third to take. Since you need your third base down before 5:30-ish so stargate wont deny your third you have to either invest a TON of minerals into getting queens and spores so you can get creep connecting it and defended. Also you need to make enough lings to break the rocks and give up map control or invest EVEN MORE minerals into lings. Then for ZvT i think the rocks are ''less'' problematic since hellions will deny your third base anyway untill you have sufficient lings or mutas out. Gold base ZvT is ridiculous since if terran is behind they can take the gold and suddenly be ahead. On shattered its so strong since they can just take a safe expansion to the gold base and then have enough minerals to take all the bases and just split the map wich terran should win unless they make a mistake. On metalopolis the gold is extremely strong since terran is suddenly so extremely close to pushing you because his third is already halfway across the map (kind of how xelnaga works but atleast zerg can take SOME further away bases). I think gold bases arent balanced since they give advantages race specifically and I think the only place rocks are viable are blocking maybe a 4th base or entrances or exits for harrass but they should never PREVENT you from taking a third base. Also someone made the arguement that on Terminus rocks were bad for toss. This is not because of the way the rocks work its because the way the map has 1 choke point to protect 3 bases. Toss could just FFE and get a third base for free while the optional 4th bases for zerg werent very comfortable locations to take.
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is it me or do only zerg players complain about rocks?
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For those who don't now, 3 hatch before pool was a common opener in BW, so it's not unrealistic to expect the same in SC2.
I don't think 3 hatch before pool will ever become norm in WOL because of queens. Players did that back in BW because they needed larva, but with injects, that problem can be averted. Now 3 hatch before pool is actually less than optimal since you have no tech or defense yet did not gain much more economy.
Nevertheless, that still depends on the rest of the map, such as the location of any gold bases, or location of the 3rd (safe vs exposed).
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On January 04 2012 05:42 striderxxx wrote:
is it me or do only zerg players complain about rocks?
Insightful.
Rocks and Gold bases are game breakers. The game should be about 2 guys fighting eachother, not 2 guys fighting eachother and rocks.
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On January 04 2012 05:42 striderxxx wrote:
is it me or do only zerg players complain about rocks?
Because it effects us the most
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it sure is easy to say rocks are pointless if you play zerg
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In a lot of GSL maps the rocks are already removed as well as the gold bases. (taldarim for example has no rocks at its third)
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On January 04 2012 05:53 Lw247_ wrote:
In a lot of GSL maps the rocks are already removed as well as the gold bases. (taldarim for example has no rocks at its third)
Once TDA hit the ladder, GOM bent over and took blizzard's rocked up thirds like a champ.
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On January 01 2012 15:45 Fred Flintstone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 15:25 Jermstuddog wrote:
I think it would be considered fair to say that rocks blocking bases is considered anti-zerg and pro-terran. If I am overstepping on my assumption here, let me know.
As the game evolves, double expand openers are becoming more and more common for zerg, and many maps put zerg in a horrible position simply due to there being rocks.
For those who don't now, 3 hatch before pool was a common opener in BW, so it's not unrealistic to expect the same in SC2.
Is rocks on 3rd bad for SC2 in general? or am i just a biased zerg? you're just a biased zerg. SC2 is not BW and rocks are there for a reason. if there are no rocks blocking the third, zerg can way outmacro terran or protoss (mainly protoss) because of the larva inject mechanic.
Really so all the other maps where the 3rds aren't blocked zerg just dominate???
The reason rocks are bad is it just limits gameplay for really no upside. They say it diversifys play styles but it limits them.instead of thinking oh whats zerg going to do you know his 3rd is blocked so he has to do x opener. While if it wasn't blocked he still could open like the last situation but now he has a choice not to
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On January 04 2012 06:28 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 05:53 Lw247_ wrote:
In a lot of GSL maps the rocks are already removed as well as the gold bases. (taldarim for example has no rocks at its third) Once TDA hit the ladder, GOM bent over and took blizzard's rocked up thirds like a champ.
now that's just disgusting haha
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On January 04 2012 06:28 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 05:53 Lw247_ wrote:
In a lot of GSL maps the rocks are already removed as well as the gold bases. (taldarim for example has no rocks at its third) Once TDA hit the ladder, GOM bent over and took blizzard's rocked up thirds like a champ.
the 3rd on taldarim had no rocks, yes, but low resources
if you wanted to take a true fast 3rd you'd have to take one of the current 4th base locations, or take the fast third and be on essentially 2 1/2 bases
it's too bad blizzard seems to think having a base without exactly 8 mineral patches is too complex for the game, because putting a full base in that location probably helped zerg more than the rocks hurt it
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EPT
