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Is rocks on 3rd just bad map design? - Page 10
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Hulavuta
United States1252 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Gemini_19
United States1258 Posts
On January 01 2012 15:48 Phobbers wrote: Or, the toss can kinda just scout it, and you know punish the zerg for being greedy? Or just take a quick 3rd of their own? | ||
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JackDragon
525 Posts
The point is that a quick thirdis way more beneficial for a zerg then a protoss. If you see a very quick third base your best bet is to try and punish because you will never get even economicaly while still staying safe if you take a quick third. Remember that a third hatch is 1 more unit producing structure for zerg while protoss only can build workesr from the nexus reducing the units and unit producing structures drastically. Rocks at the third on taldarim gives the protos the ability to punish if zerg go for a quick third at a more vulnurable position. | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
On January 02 2012 02:37 JackDragon wrote: The point is that a quick thirdis way more beneficial for a zerg then a protoss. If you see a very quick third base your best bet is to try and punish because you will never get even economicaly while still staying safe if you take a quick third. Remember that a third hatch is 1 more unit producing structure for zerg while protoss only can build workesr from the nexus reducing the units and unit producing structures drastically. Rocks at the third on taldarim gives the protos the ability to punish if zerg go for a quick third at a more vulnurable position. You're kidding right? Quick thirds for protoss are becoming more popular and are incredibly good. Obviously not at 4-5 minutes like zerg does, but taking an 8 minute 3rd is good as hell if you don't want to do a 2 base timing. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On January 01 2012 17:07 Fyrewolf wrote: If you are just going to whine that you find the rocks annoying while obviously not reading the post or actually thinking of a way to deal with there being rocks at the third (instead of whining), then I really am not going to dignify that with a response. Is that all you ever say? It is one of the most pompous replies one can give. Instead of indulging yourself in the minute pleasure you gain from such a derogatory response, say nothing at all. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11085 Posts
Not really on either count. Punishing the third depends on the map and it imo more putting on pressure than punishing a third. Taking a quick third is pretty damn hard/ impossible on some maps without tech/ good placement of the third etc. Actually think maps without a rocked third are just poorly designed. | ||
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Candles
United Kingdom103 Posts
For that reason I'm happy with 3rd rocks. I think it's the only matchup it matters in and I think it helps balance a currently Zerg favoured matchup. | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
On January 02 2012 03:15 Candles wrote: Hmmm frankly I get annoyed when watching PvZ, when, the toss FFE and the Zerg double expands. It seems to take forever before either player can apply any kind of pressure. Inevitably the Toss will go stargate and the games just feel dull to watch and seemingly quite Zerg favoured. For that reason I'm happy with 3rd rocks. I think it's the only matchup it matters in and I think it helps balance a currently Zerg favoured matchup. So map balance should be based on what people find most entertaining to watch? So I guess all maps should've been steppes of war when MKP was still playing super micro heavy 2 rax. If anything, quick 3rds make it more fun. You get to watch the zerg sit on the edge of being too greedy and trying to make just enough units to defend the almost inevitable 2 base pressure at the 3rd. | ||
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FoeHamr
United States489 Posts
Edit: I play zerg, so there is nothing more annoying than having to take my fourth as my third and my third as my fourth. Its pointless. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 02 2012 03:09 Sabu113 wrote: Not really on either count. Punishing the third depends on the map and it imo more putting on pressure than punishing a third. Taking a quick third is pretty damn hard/ impossible on some maps without tech/ good placement of the third etc. Actually think maps without a rocked third are just poorly designed. you mean like shakuras, antiga and daybreak? maps on which protoss can take a fast third against fast third zergs and therefore are some of the best PvZ maps right now? rocks on TDA are fine, rocks on antiga would just plainly make ZvX impossible(not as if it was good for zerg right now, but still not superimba) just a question of the map wether rocks are good (lead to balanced scenarios) or bad. | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
Also work on your argument more before posting a new thread. Your first argument was just wrong in the fact that zerg can just expand somewheres else and your second argument is bringing in a whole different game. | ||
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Grampz
United States2147 Posts
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EdStruction
Germany15 Posts
Rocks still are a way to stop zerg from playing very fast 2 expansions but are still able to get destroyed by lings a little bit faster I think that would do the trick | ||
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FoeHamr
United States489 Posts
On January 01 2012 15:25 Jermstuddog wrote: I think it would be considered fair to say that rocks blocking bases is considered anti-zerg and pro-terran. If I am overstepping on my assumption here, let me know. As the game evolves, double expand openers are becoming more and more common for zerg, and many maps put zerg in a horrible position simply due to there being rocks. For those who don't now, 3 hatch before pool was a common opener in BW, so it's not unrealistic to expect the same in SC2. Is rocks on 3rd bad for SC2 in general? or am i just a biased zerg? If you go 3 hatch before pool, you just kinda die to any form of early aggression. Maybe on some really big maps it might work - like Alter if there were no rocks, but its really risky. SC2 is just a different game than BW. Honestly the rocks are just an annoyance. I just take my third elsewhere at the same time. Edit: Well you might not instantly die. Maybe if a toss does a FFE and you blindly go for a 3 bases before pool it might work. Same for a terran doing a helion opening and double expanding off that, but the fact is your basically doing it blind and there is so much shit that can kill you, its just better to go hatch->pool. | ||
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Candles
United Kingdom103 Posts
On January 02 2012 03:18 Odal wrote: So map balance should be based on what people find most entertaining to watch? So I guess all maps should've been steppes of war when MKP was still playing super micro heavy 2 rax. If anything, quick 3rds make it more fun. You get to watch the zerg sit on the edge of being too greedy and trying to make just enough units to defend the almost inevitable 2 base pressure at the 3rd. Well as I already said I think it's very difficult for Toss to punish a zerg that takes a quick 3rd when they FFE and I think we can all agree that balances races is something maps are there to do. PvZ is undoubtedly Zerg favoured at the highest level at the moment and I think two of the main issues are quick 3rds in response to FFE and Mutalisks. | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
But destructible rocks (and collapsable rocks) are a good idea for opening and closing new paths. I like them when they're used that way. Only when it's balanced, of course. | ||
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Pazuzu
United States632 Posts
On January 02 2012 03:30 EdStruction wrote: i think rocks on the third should have less armor than they do now Rocks still are a way to stop zerg from playing very fast 2 expansions but are still able to get destroyed by lings a little bit faster I think that would do the trick I agree just lessening the health/armor would help tremendously. Someone much earlier mentioned how zergs vT always go ling infestor/ling muta etc before taking a third, but that seems to be because of the base situation. Since the terran goes for a timing push right before the zerg is able to take a third in a reasonable amount of time, that pushes the zerg towards a two base style opener. If there were third bases that are as easy to take as the natural, it would certainly open up the door for new development (though I can't say whether or not that would affect the match up etc, ill leave that up for discussion), and certainly push towards more macro games which is what as spectators people want more. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 02 2012 03:37 Candles wrote: Well as I already said I think it's very difficult for Toss to punish a zerg that takes a quick 3rd when they FFE and I think we can all agree that balances races is something maps are there to do. PvZ is undoubtedly Zerg favoured at the highest level at the moment and I think two of the main issues are quick 3rds in response to FFE and Mutalisks. the winrates are Z 54:46 P as far as i know for november (waiting for december stats) and yes it is impossible to punish a zerg for a fast third as 2base toss by attacking. however harassment and fast thirds as P are having a huge impact on ZvP right now. | ||
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LXR
357 Posts
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
On January 02 2012 03:52 Big J wrote: the winrates are Z 54:46 P as far as i know for november (waiting for december stats) and yes it is impossible to punish a zerg for a fast third as 2base toss by attacking. however harassment and fast thirds as P are having a huge impact on ZvP right now. http://i.imgur.com/OcoyL.png ps. dont quote the tlpd stats as facts for balance when a large amount (or maybe even a majority) of the games are between two unknown players/ 1 pro vs 1 unknown and very rarely is it two top pros versus each other. | ||
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