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On December 19 2011 02:42 jcarlson08 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 12:07 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I don't understand why you would ask David Kim about the EMP range reduction being too severe. All the EMP change did was bring the EMP radius in line with the current radius for Psi Storm. you have to remember though that terran units generally take up less space and are tighter packed than protoss units, so while you may be hitting less area, you are still hitting about the same number of units. Spreading helps mitigate this of course but the same can be said for protoss and it's also not feasible to spread perfectly in large engagements. Also remember that more important than raw damage is damage as a percentage of total health, which gives a more accurate picture of its effect on a unit/army, and one storm has the potential to do much more damage in that regard to terran units than emp does to protoss units in that regard, since terran bio units are typically high dps but low health where protoss units are higher health but lower dps.
thats why EMP is instant while Storm damage over time -.-
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On December 16 2011 13:21 Rinrun wrote:
KA upgrade causes the warp in time for HTs to increase by 10 seconds... causes WG (that warped it) cooldown to increase by 5 seconds. Also flashing floating text outlining that "IT'S A HIGH TEMPLAR, WATCH OUT FOR STORMS"
Haha. I really want to see snipe get a nerf though... it's painful watching TvZ nowadays.
yh snipe is very strong, it also ignores armor and costs only 25 energy, for a range 10 45 damage no cool down shot
it should jsut cost 50 energy
also i would love to see ultralisk have a movement speed of 3
and hydralisk have 6 range, and grooved spine removed
also mules should jsut have a cooldown( since beta people have said this)
BTW on regular patches workers bring back 5 minerals per trip
on gold they bring 7 per trip
mules on regular minerals bring back 42 minerals
on gold bases they bring in double that( and THATS why its an issue)
just saying -_-
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On December 17 2011 11:49 TheRedViper wrote:
TL;DR
David Kim is an advocate for the status quo.
He seems to think that statistical racial balance should be his only concern but doesn't address the fact that Protoss games are less interesting to watch.
Since amulet went P matchups are just less interesting than TvZ. He should really acknowledge that as a problem.
Although it doesn't really matter because HotS will change everything anyway.
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On December 19 2011 03:22 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 11:49 TheRedViper wrote:
TL;DR
David Kim is an advocate for the status quo. He seems to think that statistical racial balance should be his only concern but doesn't address the fact that Protoss games are less interesting to watch. Since amulet went P matchups are just less interesting than TvZ. He should really acknowledge that as a problem. Although it doesn't really matter because HotS will change everything anyway.
It's because Warpgate.
It makes all three match-ups shit for the spectator.
Either you go all-in or you turtle because gateway units are expensive trash that you can't easily replace like marines / lings / roaches etc.
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On December 19 2011 03:28 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 03:22 Klive5ive wrote:On December 17 2011 11:49 TheRedViper wrote:
TL;DR
David Kim is an advocate for the status quo. He seems to think that statistical racial balance should be his only concern but doesn't address the fact that Protoss games are less interesting to watch. Since amulet went P matchups are just less interesting than TvZ. He should really acknowledge that as a problem. Although it doesn't really matter because HotS will change everything anyway. It's because Warpgate. It makes all three match-ups shit for the spectator. Either you go all-in or you turtle because gateway units are expensive trash that you can't easily replace like marines / lings / roaches etc.
Agreed. I feel like, especially with larger maps, Warp Gate should be a very lategame upgrade for harassment.
Or else, you could have Warp Gates still warping in at Warp Prisms, but not Pylons. Interesting idea, though it would have its flaws.
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It's hard to imagine a game with decent gw units. What would gateway stalkers and zealots look like thne? Would they recieve a movement speed boost atleast? I can't ever see them beating marine balls. That problem is more because terrans cant be forced down a mech route like BW. I can't see blizz changing the dynamic of Z. Roaches and hydras will always remain super effective against GW units as even without insta reinforcements blink stalkers would be difficult to deal with (since they are such momentum units and the nature of zerg unit production makes it especially difficult to deal with.)
WGs are here to stay. KA needs to go back to its 65 energy start to be robust enough to be a viable option. Right now IMO collosi are the obviously better option unless there's 10 or so aa air units about. A moderate wait will give Toss a nice unique advantage, something it seems to lack. It will also put hts more on par with the other , superior casters.
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On December 18 2011 19:34 thesums wrote:
maybe they should make Khaydarin Amulet available , but take away the warp tech for the Templars, or increase the warp time to the equivalent of normal building times. This would make it same as SC1, and I would have no problem with it. Otherwise, the protoss should not complain because with the emp area nerf, Temps should not be buffed.
THe emp is nerfed so much since SC1 though,
-originally aoe is nerfed from science vessels, but since it is lower tier unit, this is reasonable
-instead of taking all shield away now it only takes 100 shield
- take only 100 energy instead of all energy.
- The emp was nerfed 2 times in terms of aoe, i believe once during beta, and now again. It is hard to hit multiple units, now they should just give a target attack then, because it is so easy to miss now, pros miss them a lot as well.
PS: Make sure you actually play terran after the patch to see the EMP nerf, it is ridiculously small radius
Did you see the thread about the PTR? The old beta radius was HUGE, the SC1 vessel box size is about the same as the current one, with the same radius/box size but it's a box instead of a circle.
The ridiculously small radius is the same as psi storm, just so you know.
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On December 19 2011 03:08 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 02:42 jcarlson08 wrote:On December 16 2011 12:07 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I don't understand why you would ask David Kim about the EMP range reduction being too severe. All the EMP change did was bring the EMP radius in line with the current radius for Psi Storm. you have to remember though that terran units generally take up less space and are tighter packed than protoss units, so while you may be hitting less area, you are still hitting about the same number of units. Spreading helps mitigate this of course but the same can be said for protoss and it's also not feasible to spread perfectly in large engagements. Also remember that more important than raw damage is damage as a percentage of total health, which gives a more accurate picture of its effect on a unit/army, and one storm has the potential to do much more damage in that regard to terran units than emp does to protoss units in that regard, since terran bio units are typically high dps but low health where protoss units are higher health but lower dps. thats why EMP is instant while Storm damage over time -.-
It is probably one of the reasons, but it doesn't have to be the only one. Perhaps Dot isn't enough to correct the disparity alone? It's silly to isolate one stat from one race's spell and compare it vs another; Proper balance discussion has to account for all factors. It's even possible emp should be "imbalanced" when compared to storm as a whole in order to compensate for weakness elsewhere. Balance discussion is meaningless outside the context of the matchup taken as a whole; statements such as yours and "it was done to bring emp radius in line with storm radius" don't really contribute much value unless the goal is to balance the game by making every race the same.
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On December 18 2011 19:38 thesums wrote:
Terrans are only doing well in Korea because so many Koreans play the Terran race. A lot of Terran players in SC1 as well, it is like a tradition, and they are the coolest looking race to use (i think to general public). Also a lot of top terran players were actually good SC1 players (more recent players i mean), such as MVP and FIN. It is understandable they have better multi-tasking skills, and one can see this easily in competitions, where they can micro is like 2 or 3 fronts almost simultaneously
This is true, but the current Korean GM ladder is not dominated by Terrans. The current spread (as of this post) is 35% terran, 37.5% toss, and 25.5% zerg. The NA server is 29% T, 32% Toss, 36% Zerg. EU is the zerg heaviest GM ladder with 40%, and China GM ladder is uniquely weird in that it has the highest proportion of any one race, with Toss at 42%. SEA has the most even balance of GM frequency between the races.
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On December 16 2011 12:07 eleaf wrote:
Just explain why current master/GM are flooded with zerg. Hard race and need auto lava inject? I dont think so.
User was warned for this post
higher percentage of zerg being player on ladder = higher percentage of representation in all divisions and leagues. There are two reasons races can appear balanced. One is that more people player the harder race, and despite this the races come withing 55% w/l so they appear balanced. The other is that skill level plays a part in high level balance. Even if a race is unbalanced, a person cannot go beyond a certain amount of skill relative to other players.
For example. Lets say we could reduce timing attacks, build orders, and unit comps, and micro, essentially everything to numbers.
Lets say of these numbers, it takes 100 skill, which is a number of all these combined traits, to beat race Y when the player of race Y has 90 skill. Now, the previous player of race X gets 100 skill. He can now beat race Y, but his skill ceiling peak, because in order to beat the player of race Y when he gets 100 skill himself, the players of race X actually has to experience and strive to get the skills to beat the players of race Y at 100. As long as player of race Y only has 90 skill, player of race X does not increase in skill beyond what is necessary to kill player of race Y at 90 skill.
to summarize, at the highest levels of play, the skill ceiling is what keeps races appearing balanced to each other. Its relative to players. That tells you something about how these players are so good, that prevalent imbalances can appear meaningless, which is why I believe that true balance should be achieved at all levels of play, and not simply at the highest. IF you achieve balance at all levels of play, player skill means more in order to get higher in the game.
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fairly standard we are aware of the concerns, we're looking into it, and wont do much about it, buy HotS
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On December 16 2011 12:01 Carras wrote:
thats completely empty as usual.. not a single line worth reading.. you could summarize the hole post with "we r working hard , wait for HOTS"
indeed. I'd rather have nothing than this. they don't really like to talk about the real problems, and if they do, they marginalize them and tell us to wait for HotS...
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He basically answered the same politically correct answer to all the questions... Didn't go in depth at all. What a useless Q&A...
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Wh do they give Q+A's when they answer like NOTHING? Even on problems that are widely known since the Beta?..
Mules are, especially on Gold Minerals, a bit strong? NO SHIT SHERLOCK?
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On December 19 2011 03:34 SeaSwift wrote:
Agreed. I feel like, especially with larger maps, Warp Gate should be a very lategame upgrade for harassment.
Or else, you could have Warp Gates still warping in at Warp Prisms, but not Pylons. Interesting idea, though it would have its flaws.
agree with both things.
games would be a lot more interesting if warpgate was a very late game tech as it would then have more of a "holy shit, he has warptech, now I have a problem" feeling and an actual strategic choice instead of the 100% predictability of today, where you could just as well make it available from the beginning...
(I also think the cooldown of both warpgates and gateway buildtime should be the same.)
a speed upgrade for zealots instead of charge would also be much more interesting as you'd get a very fast ground unit you can harrass and scout, and micro would become more interesting. (but there are really just too many things wrong with protoss unit design and this is just one of them.)
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If reapers were stronger against armored late game cost 75 minerals (no gas) and could go faster than speedlings they would be used a lot more
[vultures]
On December 19 2011 18:50 KULA_u wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 03:34 SeaSwift wrote:
Agreed. I feel like, especially with larger maps, Warp Gate should be a very lategame upgrade for harassment.
Or else, you could have Warp Gates still warping in at Warp Prisms, but not Pylons. Interesting idea, though it would have its flaws.
agree with both things. games would be a lot more interesting if warpgate was a very late game tech as it would then have more of a "holy shit, he has warptech, now I have a problem" feeling and an actual strategic choice instead of the 100% predictability of today, where you could just as well make it available from the beginning... (I also think the cooldown of both warpgates and gateway buildtime should be the same.) a speed upgrade for zealots instead of charge would also be much more interesting as you'd get a very fast ground unit you can harrass and scout, and micro would become more interesting. (but there are really just too many things wrong with protoss unit design and this is just one of them.)
This was what happened with recall in BW, and is the source of a lot of very exciting moments. It was a very expensive upgrade and the highest tier tech out of any upgrade of any race, why Protoss gets it now for 50/50 from a cybercore with no energy or arbiter makes no sense to me.
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On December 19 2011 17:32 Geo.Rion wrote:
fairly standard we are aware of the concerns, we're looking into it, and wont do much about it, buy HotS
When there are big imbalances in design or balance you can't just change numbers around, you'll have to make big changes (remove or add units).
On December 19 2011 18:42 Velr wrote:
Wh do they give Q+A's when they answer like NOTHING? Even on problems that are widely known since the Beta?..
Mules are, especially on Gold Minerals, a bit strong? NO SHIT SHERLOCK?
The Q&A's purpose is to find out what the balance team is feeling, not specifically what changes they will implement. You'll find that out when such changes show up in a PTR. Without the Q&A, hell we might not know that David Kim agrees that MULEs on gold patches might be imbalanced. Instead we might be afraid that he thinks that they are perfectly fine and working as intended.
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On December 16 2011 12:04 TyrantPotato wrote:
their view on reapers IMO was completely wrong.
the only reason that reapers were too good against zerg was the tiny map size, and that they could kite everything
i preached back in the 5rax reaper days that all that needed to change was roach range increased to prevent kiting of roaches.
now with that increased range, bringing back the reaper speed will bring another way in which the tvz game could be played.
I was another who thought that was all that was needed to stop the 5 rax from being such an OP strat. I will never understand why Blizz both took away the speed up AND gave roaches extra range.
Yet they somehow sit there and say "gee it's weird that no one uses reapers anymore..."
Even in this interview, he didn't say anything noteworthy.
It blows my mind how both David Kim and Dustin Browder can speak for 15 minutes and not say a single useful or interesting thing.
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On December 19 2011 19:23 genius_man16 wrote:
I was another who thought that was all that was needed to stop the 5 rax from being such an OP strat. I will never understand why Blizz both took away the speed up AND gave roaches extra range.
Yet they somehow sit there and say "gee it's weird that no one uses reapers anymore..."
The reasoning behind the extra Roach range wasn't just because of Reapers. In ZvP the prevalent unit composition was Roach/Hydra but the Roaches wouldn't "stack" well with the Hydras because of such a short range. Stalkers could also kite the Roaches a lot easier and because Hydras are so slow, you'd end up losing half your army before you reached the opponents base.
Yes, Nitro Packs need to be put back on Tech Lab tech, and I wouldn't mind seeing the proposed change (Slow health regen, no building attack) go into at least the first beta build to see how it will play out.
The major problem at the current stage is that they have no role. Hellions do tremendous amounts of damage to both Zerglings and Drones even with the BFH nerf, so there's no need for a Reaper. They buffed the health of the Hatchery/Lair/Hive as well as the Spawning Pool, and nerfed the Reaper building attack so now they're useless in quickly assaulting tech structures or buildings of any kind. So what's the point in making a Reaper at all? It's not as simple as pushing back their speed tech and giving Roaches an extra range.
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Basically "wait for HOTS for the fixes to anything" and "we won't make any comments on any real balance/design issues and just pretend that everything is fine because the numbers we have say so". Also most of the questions were terrible. I don't understand why they wouldn't look at the real issues like chargelots in TvP. Meh
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EPT
