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To the people who are upset by this:
Huh? I think you may be over reacting a bit. The only reason this should cause issue of any kind is if tournament participants signed a contract stating that they will not throw games that occur after they are knowingly unable to advance out of the group stages.
I will offer some counter arguments:
Probe rushes are technically not a zero win strategy, their shields recharge. This allows for theoretical cases where microing them properly can win games.
How many games has Idra gg'd out of that weren't over, or even that he was ahead in? Those instances are also unsportsmanlike.
There are many walkovers for placement in MLGs, even in cases where money is on the line. Why don't you make a fuss about those?
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On December 14 2011 00:07 SoylentCreep wrote:
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Honestly i think you're full of shit. I don't give a shit about your ladder "experience", but you know in the world of professionalism the word "fun" hardly exists. Do you think a manager is doing his stressful work day after day for the fun of it? Or a football player? Or the cleaning lady cleaning away other peoples piss and shit? No, they all do it for the money, and that's just how the world works.
I agree on the non-existing rules. Things need to be clear. That can lead to rediculous incidents like the "ppp disqualification" but things need to be written down. Also the article is shit, just like Naniwa's behavior.
And please, please dude, don't compare a probe rush (against zerg!) with "funny" but semi-viable joke strategies like BC rush and the likes.
If you're equating progaming to a profession then there are 3 things at stake:
His duty to the competition: His job, is to play in it. That's it. If his role is to preserve the integrity of the competition, then he did so. Absolutely none of the tournament compettion was affected by this. If his role is to entertain, then it becomes a matter of subjective opinion. I, and many others, were entertained. Many others were not, but that's what happens when you have to judge based on entertainment, not everyone is pleased.
His duty to team/sponsors: Whether his team or his sponsors didn't like his actions is up to them. It's only their business how they handle this incident with Naniwa. It's absolutely none of our business what they decide to do, if they think this is great publicity, then fine. If they feel the need to fine him or something, also fine. But we aren't, and shouldn't be involved.
His duty to GOMtv: As long as there aren't rules in place to prevent this, then there is absolutely nothing wrong, and he should not be penalized for it. However if GOM decided to do so, thats also up to them, no matter how much I don't agree with it. You can't retroactively punish people for rules not in place.
and I damn well compare them. When, the winner of a match is unimportant and only the game itself for "entertainment" matters. Then a probe rush is just as viable as anything else, as it was just a joke strat done for the novelty and lulz. Which goes back to the objectivity of "entertainment".
and the ladder experience was just an example. If naniwa is playing solely for money, why in the world, is he expected to play when money isn't involved. If I'm playing for fun, why in the world, am I expected to play if it's not fun?
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mhh .. so he blames nani for his character and his mindset?!
and also the match was for nothing. yeah .. nestea is very popular and it was his birthday, but should u let someone win only cause it´s his birthday and you are sure otherwise(in a normal game) u are losing.
nani just won´t play this game and just brought it to a quick end and thats all ... naniwa didn´t wanted to punish someone or whatsoever.
just a dump reaction ... if nestea is angry about it .. jeah shit happens, it´s life ... seriously .. only cause of some culture shit or what ever, creating such an upset.
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What Coca did was WAY worse, but a korean would never say he doesn't deserve to be a progamer. Hope Nani will own them all in Code S Jan.
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I don't understand why some people can accept Naniwa expressing his fustration and refuse to accept people being fustrated by what Naniwa did. As a matter of whether it's right or wrong, it's a very gray area. The whole thing comes about due to emotions and expectations of the game, and honestly who can argue against the passion from either side?
I don't think there's any over-reaction on this issue, calling it out seems to be the right thing. The viewers are meant to convey these things to the players. The whole industry isn't just simply players playing games.
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Yup. Proud to be brazilian.
(I'm just venting my anger ^_^)
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On December 14 2011 00:12 Bagration wrote:
What Naniwa did was disrespectful and unprofessional, but what I find really irritating is FXO Choya's tweet. Choya's hypocrisy is, in my opinion, worse than what Naniwa did, considering:
"During the first GSL Sponsorship League season in 2011, Choya was implicated in a scandal where he paused the matches at the start and asked the opponent to decide the winner by rock-paper-scissors. Due to this ladder abuse, choya apologized and received a warning from GOMTV as well as a ban from the first team league event."
-Liquipedia
That in my opinion is much worse than what Naniwa did.
I swear that there was a thread months ago about this, except that it was about ladder games or something, not the GSL sponsorship league. That sounds like a really boneheaded thing to do, I dont suppose anyone remembers?
Regardless, I do think that many people are overreacting about this. At the end of the day, I dont think this should cost Naniwa anything other than a warning.
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So sad that this drama overshadowed the other great games played today.
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You have to understand this from the Korean culture point of view, and from the money point of view. Regardless of respect to Nestea and the organisation that put up the tournament, people payed to watch this, it's bad for Gomtv.
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Blizzard Cup is a tournament for the fans to see some of the best players from throughout the year matched up against each other. Keep that in mind before you jump in to defend Naniwa so quickly.
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Really good that other pros are showing their suppord.
It's not that big of a deal, but just because it was naniwa everyone hates.
Tyler love <3
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Being a pro-gamer is about competition and winning. If you already lost, you are just wasting time and you don't give a shit about training against another good player, then I don't see what Nani did wrong.
Maybe is the european/north american culture but if you don't have any profit, just give it a shit and go home to do something productive!
Koreans are angry because it goes against their so called "progaming culture", well I'm also angry about them not saying "NO" when you have to do business with them and they keep doing evasive replies and regretting the supposed delays, but I keep doing business with them because we are supposed to be civilized and growth adults.
Go Nani, win when you have to, and just quit when you have lost, like anyone with more than a brain cell should do.
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I agree a lot more with the Korean reaction than with the foreign reaction. I don't think Naniwa is going to make it very far as a progamer. It's well known that people already think he is difficult to deal with.
Now's he's throwing games because he just didn't feel like playing? That's immature. As good as he is, he just doesn't have the mental capacity to focus on his game and stay out of this kind of stupid shit.
I also agree about not giving him any of the free foreigner GSL seeds.
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maaan the koreans are raging hardcore lol
i dont even know why they are so upset about it i mean the game wasnt worth anything anyways
if double proxy gated it wouldve been almost freewin for NesTea as well and noone would have complained about it 
and since there are no rules on how you have to play a game naniwa cannot receive any punishment from GSL (at least it shouldnt be possible)
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It's obvious what sc2 needs. KESPA 2.0
I understand from his pov that the game may not have mattered and it wasn't against the rules, but he should've at least gone through with it for the sake of e-sports.
Hopefully, rules are made more clear in future to prevent these drama situations from casual worldwide spread between the community.
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Well, the fact is that every progamer knows what he is inside, he is just good of hiding it..
Badmannered past.. Punching admins at dreamhack... Throwing nudels to fellow players...
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I think it sucks mainly because I was really pumped for the match! My personal beliefs are if you are a professional in whatever you do, you can't just give up if you have a responsibility. I thought of it as being at work, even if the phones aren't ringing and you theoretically don't have anything important to do you can't go home because you have the responsibility of being there. He is a pro, he is sponsored, I think he has a duty to his sponsors and team who pay for him to be in korea to play whatever matches he is put into.
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On December 14 2011 00:19 Russano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 00:07 SoylentCreep wrote:
[
Honestly i think you're full of shit. I don't give a shit about your ladder "experience", but you know in the world of professionalism the word "fun" hardly exists. Do you think a manager is doing his stressful work day after day for the fun of it? Or a football player? Or the cleaning lady cleaning away other peoples piss and shit? No, they all do it for the money, and that's just how the world works.
I agree on the non-existing rules. Things need to be clear. That can lead to rediculous incidents like the "ppp disqualification" but things need to be written down. Also the article is shit, just like Naniwa's behavior.
And please, please dude, don't compare a probe rush (against zerg!) with "funny" but semi-viable joke strategies like BC rush and the likes. If you're equating progaming to a profession then there are 3 things at stake: His duty to the competition: His job, is to play in it. That's it. If his role is to preserve the integrity of the competition, then he did so. Absolutely none of the tournament compettion was affected by this. If his role is to entertain, then it becomes a matter of subjective opinion. I, and many others, were entertained. Many others were not, but that's what happens when you have to judge based on entertainment, not everyone is pleased. His duty to team/sponsors: Whether his team or his sponsors didn't like his actions is up to them. It's only their business how they handle this incident with Naniwa. It's absolutely none of our business what they decide to do, if they think this is great publicity, then fine. If they feel the need to fine him or something, also fine. But we aren't, and shouldn't be involved. His duty to GOMtv: As long as there aren't rules in place to prevent this, then there is absolutely nothing wrong, and he should not be penalized for it. However if GOM decided to do so, thats also up to them, no matter how much I don't agree with it. You can't retroactively punish people for rules not in place. and I damn well compare them. When, the winner of a match is unimportant and only the game itself for "entertainment" matters. Then a probe rush is just as viable as anything else, as it was just a joke strat done for the novelty and lulz. Which goes back to the objectivity of "entertainment". and the ladder experience was just an example. If naniwa is playing solely for money, why in the world, is he expected to play when money isn't involved. If I'm playing for fun, why in the world, am I expected to play if it's not fun?
I understand that playing that game was totally useless. Yet, GomTV decided to have that game played and broadcasted for the "lulz". I also agree on the 3 points of progaming as a profession. But what really bugs me is his mindset. He is abroad, representing his country, and the foreigner community, therefore i could not have hurt to invest 5 more minutes to 4 gate or dt rush and try winning it for the "lulz". He chose to "herp a derp" throw the game by probe rushing which equals default loss ( even a 6 pool can win you a game if you're lucky, a probe rush cant).
E-sports as a profession is still so new and fragile (in the western world) and things like that should simply not happen because every sc2 progamer should be happy that big tournaments like this exist in the first place, and therefore respect the competition,the opponents, the companies, the teams and the money involved. Maybe the overabundance of tournaments with big price pools is showing its ugly face.
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On December 13 2011 23:02 Mi.rai wrote:
If anyone is to blame, its GOM for deciding to continue to host a game with no value to the player.
Long time lurker, first post! I agree with the above statement, but it certainly falls on Naniwa as well.
First, Naniwa does have behavior issues and this certainly doesn't help his cause, especially since it is in South Korea. Second, I know that GOM wants to give their viewers a good product and show as many games as possible, but why show a game where the winner takes next to last place and is still eliminated? I actually just chuckled and shook my head went I saw Naniwa pull this because I had just thought to myself the possibility of someone worker rushing in a situation like this one.
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EPT
