On May 10 2013 00:37 Jigato wrote: I got a chance to watch episode #101 yesterday and I really really think it is an interesting topic. I appreciate all discussions about being better at anything, not just Starcraft. Thought I might add to the brainstorming here.
I think one big resource to tap into when talking about training is to learn as much as we can from other sports and competitions. The structure that NFL/MLB/NBA teams has is obviously able to turn out a lot of top notch players in their sports. In my time in middle school and high school baseball and soccer, our training was almost all drills. We did some scrimmages, but the majority of our time was spent in very specific drills that were trying to hone very specific aspects of our play. Trying to apply that to Starcraft, resume from replay is one tool that would probably do this well, but I also think custom games is a good comparison to drills. On Demu's stream he often mentions that he got good at splitting by doing the Marine Split Challenge or something like that. From my own playing, I played a lot of a multi-tasking custom game where you have to keep a probe moving away from a zergling while you build up your base. Both are great ways to to focus on a single thing that you are trying to improve.
A less thought out stream of thought I have is that it might be good to look into tennis and chess training in particular. I like the tennis idea because, for the sports I played in high school, much of the training was on the group and how to work as a team a lot, but 1v1 is really what high level SC is all about. I also like the chess idea because in most other sports, you physically can't play at 100% for more than an hour or so, but in chess and SC you could ladder for 10 hours straight if you want, though that is probably not the best way to train.
One question I have is how the 'average' pro trains. The show mentioned that there is a lot (probably too much) of laddering, but pros have coaches right? What exactly does the coach do? They also have teammates that they can tap as practice partners. I heard about Demu and Suppy training together with some great results for Suppy, but also some teammates quit when they get matched up against Demu on the ladder. Which is more common?
I hope that this puts some fresh ideas into the discussion and wasn't too long. I agree with the point that we should completely step back and look at the whole issue. Don't just say, well the Koreans have the perfect system, do what they do. We might end up at nearly the same solution, but the journey will help us figure out if we can improve anything else.
You are on our wavelength. Lots of talk about all those things in the coming weeks! ^^
I was having a talk recently with a friend of mine who is really into fencing, and I was explaining the current state of SC2 and the challenges of the foreigners keeping up with Koreans. He seemed to see a lot of similarities between what I was saying and the fencing community, especially with each country having its own training and play-styles and how some countries output a ton of talent very quickly (almost like the current Koeran sc2 scene) whereas others have more eclectic and diverse styles and keep up by trying to optimize their training.
I know tennis is usually brought up as the main "real" sport that's closest to sc2 (besides speed-chess perhaps) but I think that fencing might be another good example since there seems to be an extremely nuanced element of strategy and an underlying tactical wheel. In the future I plan on looking into it a bit more since I believe there could be much to learn from the fencing scene and their various training methods.
Please dont have the show talking about how to train, ill call 95% of the people who watch the show are the same as me, we love startcraft and want to play starcraft and learn about starcraft but i certainly dont want to be told how to TRAIN for the game and take long walks on the beach if im on tilt . . .basically its because im not a pro gamer, people like me who train to play sc2 MIGHT want to focus their energy into something else which has near guaranteed success rates if they do it well and the fact that it may become a life long skill, serious talk to any person not in gaming that you play sc2 . . . ye . .they laugh. i get laughed at but its ok, its my thing!
ill always watch the shows man but recently ive been getting really really bored with the conversation main topics. Why not passionately talk about the game, say its ok to rage, get full on aggressive with what you should be doing in ur next games . . not this la di da, take a break, take a walk, bake a cake . . like me and the most of us, we get in from work, put the kids to bed and i have 1.5 hrs to play the fucking game and im already tired as fuck . . but i want to play. . . .and the nearest beach is 15 miles away
On May 21 2013 04:03 StatixEx wrote: Please dont have the show talking about how to train, ill call 95% of the people who watch the show are the same as me, we love startcraft and want to play starcraft and learn about starcraft but i certainly dont want to be told how to TRAIN for the game and take long walks on the beach if im on tilt . . .basically its because im not a pro gamer, people like me who train to play sc2 MIGHT want to focus their energy into something else which has near guaranteed success rates if they do it well and the fact that it may become a life long skill, serious talk to any person not in gaming that you play sc2 . . . ye . .they laugh. i get laughed at but its ok, its my thing!
ill always watch the shows man but recently ive been getting really really bored with the conversation main topics. Why not passionately talk about the game, say its ok to rage, get full on aggressive with what you should be doing in ur next games . . not this la di da, take a break, take a walk, bake a cake . . like me and the most of us, we get in from work, put the kids to bed and i have 1.5 hrs to play the fucking game and im already tired as fuck . . but i want to play. . . .and the nearest beach is 15 miles away
Totally get it and talking about the specifics of the game is what we've done in the past with strats and such, but we're really focused on developing a more cerebral approach to improvement and various tools which Im hoping will encompass the casual gamers too. If you watch the shows for a more casual approach it might not be your cup of tea and there are definitely a ton of other shows right now that are much better suited like SoTG, Meta, iTG, and player streams.
I hope you continue to watch but it's all good if it's not your thing.
On May 21 2013 04:03 StatixEx wrote: Please dont have the show talking about how to train, ill call 95% of the people who watch the show are the same as me, we love startcraft and want to play starcraft and learn about starcraft but i certainly dont want to be told how to TRAIN for the game and take long walks on the beach if im on tilt . . .basically its because im not a pro gamer, people like me who train to play sc2 MIGHT want to focus their energy into something else which has near guaranteed success rates if they do it well and the fact that it may become a life long skill, serious talk to any person not in gaming that you play sc2 . . . ye . .they laugh. i get laughed at but its ok, its my thing!
ill always watch the shows man but recently ive been getting really really bored with the conversation main topics. Why not passionately talk about the game, say its ok to rage, get full on aggressive with what you should be doing in ur next games . . not this la di da, take a break, take a walk, bake a cake . . like me and the most of us, we get in from work, put the kids to bed and i have 1.5 hrs to play the fucking game and im already tired as fuck . . but i want to play. . . .and the nearest beach is 15 miles away
Some people have 1 hour to play starcraft in the day, some people have closer to 8 hours to play in the day. Some people have a family to look after, some not. Some people have jobs, while another persons job is starcraft related. There are no certainties in life, to say that you would rather focus your energies into something more tangible and long term then maybe a re-evaluation of priorities needs to take place.
We are discussing the best methods to train for people like yourself, not just professionals. Maybe it would be possible to take what you learn from the show and incorporate it into your family, personal and professional life. Some aspects organically transfer over. They may have a different name or fall under the various guises of social, group or intrapersonal perspectives. I think approaching the facets in your life with a professional and personal approach is important. If starcraft is your release from life and stress then you might want to maintain the fun aspect by treating it thusly, as a recreation orientated catharsis activity. This is maybe the reason why you do not appreciate the tone of the show which is understandable.
To respond to your comment on raging and getting 'full on aggressive', it is not a productive mindset to be in for people who require accuracy and quickness of thought/hand for success professional or not. There are some sports that utilize anger as a prime motivator but It is not immediately useful generally.
Ah dont get me wrong chanman i love the show, urs is the only stuff ill care to watch ,the last one with theognis was easy going but again it just this idea of training in sc2. Come on, really? the pro players on pro teams in pro houses with nothing else going on can "train" but the rest of us are just playing a bunch of games and probably coming across the same builds over and over and dont have a real way to stop it (Please dont forget not only have you got to get the composition right here but you have to make sure everything else is held together) like i said in my earlier post, i cant really come home, mess around in sc2planner, practice the build against the ai (and how many times do you really do this) and then take it to ladder, i may get 2-3 competitive games in the night and then next day bam . . cant play sc2 for whatever reason, then the next day and then the next and then when i finally do other parts of my game play needed fixing not to mention new strats. Of course the show isnt going to change as its your show, i just think im speaking for a lot more people who cant "train" but need some viable thing to mull over during the day in their mind (as i do) then come in and blast it for an hr, not only that the last show with tlo and this show, ur kinda saying the same things over and over, whats more can you say, take breaks, maybe watch the replay get some advice . . .but from who? I have only a few close sc2 pp's but they know as much as i do. im just sorry to see this go down this same road every week where realistically the pros just hammer a load of games, watching some of the eg streamers, they just do it all day long and commentate while they do it ,then they go gym and come back, what else is there to say . . . but i still cant beat hellbats, tanks and thors coming at me!
most of this above just me commenting after my day of work before i can sit down with the game (gotta get these kids to bed man) but anyway, peace the shows really good regardless just a shame its shifted away from my selfish needs!
On May 23 2013 02:18 StatixEx wrote: Ah dont get me wrong chanman i love the show, urs is the only stuff ill care to watch ,the last one with theognis was easy going but again it just this idea of training in sc2. Come on, really? the pro players on pro teams in pro houses with nothing else going on can "train" but the rest of us are just playing a bunch of games and probably coming across the same builds over and over and dont have a real way to stop it (Please dont forget not only have you got to get the composition right here but you have to make sure everything else is held together) like i said in my earlier post, i cant really come home, mess around in sc2planner, practice the build against the ai (and how many times do you really do this) and then take it to ladder, i may get 2-3 competitive games in the night and then next day bam . . cant play sc2 for whatever reason, then the next day and then the next and then when i finally do other parts of my game play needed fixing not to mention new strats. Of course the show isnt going to change as its your show, i just think im speaking for a lot more people who cant "train" but need some viable thing to mull over during the day in their mind (as i do) then come in and blast it for an hr, not only that the last show with tlo and this show, ur kinda saying the same things over and over, whats more can you say, take breaks, maybe watch the replay get some advice . . .but from who? I have only a few close sc2 pp's but they know as much as i do. im just sorry to see this go down this same road every week where realistically the pros just hammer a load of games, watching some of the eg streamers, they just do it all day long and commentate while they do it ,then they go gym and come back, what else is there to say . . . but i still cant beat hellbats, tanks and thors coming at me!
most of this above just me commenting after my day of work before i can sit down with the game (gotta get these kids to bed man) but anyway, peace the shows really good regardless just a shame its shifted away from my selfish needs!
Focus on networking and getting a good group together for custom games daily. Do a bo5 with ur friend Or if you're having trouble vs this "one build" you're talking about just have him do it 10 times in a row until you CRUSH it. 2 hrs of this is better than 8 hrs of laddering.
SC2planner and the other programs are helpful but they are only just supplementary tools. Good ol' fashioned customs is the core of effective training.
EPT
