EPTHeart Of The Swarm: The Pro's Opinions - Page 9
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Lunchador
United States776 Posts
| ||
|
ALPINA
3791 Posts
On December 03 2011 20:17 Talin wrote: The problem is that the new units are just not Starcraft units. They have weird spells and special abilities that are just going to create problems and push the game even more in the unit composition / timing / strategy direction, rather than the execution direction. then according to you broodwar units has wierd spells as well. Shredder = lurker, viper similar to defiler, warhound similar to goliath, etc. Of course there gonna be imbalance but everything can be balanced. I don't see what's wrong with having more caster units, it's just adds more micro to the game and it's much more enjoyable to people to watch games. | ||
|
D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
On December 03 2011 20:17 Talin wrote: The problem is that the new units are just not Starcraft units. They have weird spells and special abilities that are just going to create problems and push the game even more in the unit composition / timing / strategy direction, rather than the execution direction. Core of RTS gameplay should be in SIMPLE units that just walk and shoot. HoTS completely deviates from that norm. but wouldn't that fall into the "this game is too easy" trap that's already been complained about? If all caster-type units are outright removed, and all the units reduced to only move-and-shoot type units that are all produced from simple, non-gimmicky buildings, then the only true differentiation from the races would be just strictly mathematical differences. Command and Conquer matches up with your description. No casters to speak of at all. Not sure about Dawn of War. | ||
|
Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On December 03 2011 20:26 D_K_night wrote: but wouldn't that fall into the "this game is too easy" trap that's already been complained about? If all caster-type units are outright removed, and all the units reduced to only move-and-shoot type units that are all produced from simple, non-gimmicky buildings, then the only true differentiation from the races would be just strictly mathematical differences. Command and Conquer matches up with your description. No casters to speak of at all. Not sure about Dawn of War. Dawn of war has a ton of special abilities and spellcasters, especially the second one. | ||
|
Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On December 03 2011 20:25 Alpina wrote: then according to you broodwar units has wierd spells as well. Shredder = lurker, viper similar to defiler, warhound similar to goliath, etc. Of course there gonna be imbalance but everything can be balanced. I don't see what's wrong with having more caster units, it's just adds more micro to the game and it's much more enjoyable to people to watch games. Brood War had less of those units overall and they were simpler and relatively higher up in the tech tree. And casters don't really add that much micro. The real micro in an RTS game is control over the basic units to minimize damage taken and maximize dps output. Spell control is really secondary, especially with SC2's smartcasting when you can just spam spells at will on a control group hotkey. On December 03 2011 20:26 D_K_night wrote: but wouldn't that fall into the "this game is too easy" trap that's already been complained about? If all caster-type units are outright removed, and all the units reduced to only move-and-shoot type units that are all produced from simple, non-gimmicky buildings, then the only true differentiation from the races would be just strictly mathematical differences. Actually the opposite is true. | ||
|
Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
| ||
|
Newbistic
China2912 Posts
| ||
|
Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
I can definantly see the frustration coming from a competititors point of view, he's actively trying to be the best he can be, but he's frustrated because the game is so volotile and random that its hard to motivate yourself. | ||
|
ALPINA
3791 Posts
On December 03 2011 20:33 Talin wrote: Brood War had less of those units overall and they were simpler and relatively higher up in the tech tree. And casters don't really add that much micro. The real micro in an RTS game is control over the basic units to minimize damage taken and maximize dps output. Spell control is really secondary, especially with SC2's smartcasting when you can just spam spells at will on a control group hotkey. Actually the opposite is true. Let's take zerg attacking protoss or terran army, there isn't much micro to do, and with sc2's engine it's just not worth microing in huge battles apart from simple move command banelings to marines or magic boxing thors. So unit like viper would add a lot to the game, it requires well placed blinding cloud, then you can snipe any huge unit like tank/thor. This as well forces terran to reposition their army and be more careful with their large units. I can't see how this unit won't add a lot of depth to the game. SC2 battles are so short and everything dies so fast that unit micro not that important, you better use that time to macro or harass (not to mention terran because they really have much to do in tvz). | ||
|
babo213
United States266 Posts
In a way with how Browder and co. are designing the game or so it seems, it reminds me of how nowadays in youth sports and stuff everyone has to get a trophy and feel good even if they're terrible. Making it the game more luck based and lower skill ceiling to appeal to the masses that may just in general suck at it. | ||
|
Bulkers
Poland509 Posts
Im surprised that Blizzard add/remove so much units in HotS before Blizzcon I was sure that they will add 1 unit per race not more. It will be great from low level/casual player point of view because you will discover game from beginning, it will be very interesting from spectator point of view, because we will see how pros adapt and try new stuff. BUT from pro/semi-pro player perspective this will be relearning the game = no prize money for quite a while, and then LotV will came and they will do it again... | ||
|
Haustka
United States221 Posts
yeah? i will do that same gg gl hf  oh... and im not even a pro ohhh and im a zerg player so i will qq even if u dont want me to | ||
|
D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
On December 03 2011 20:41 Newbistic wrote: It's pretty pointless right now for anyone to make judgement calls on HotS, progamers or not. You might say Browder has no experience with competitive RTS, but someone like Cloud also has no experience with game design. It works both ways. In fact, it's actually much easier for Browder to learn about competitive RTS gaming than for Cloud to learn about game design, just because there are so many VODs and shit lying around, There is simply enormous differences in opinion as to what the game "should be". Easy to play, difficult to master. But yet we're seeing "no, the game should not be easy to play. We should not cater to noobs". It's just not gonna happen. The game is going to cater to the lowest common denominator, because that's what made WoW successful, right? This reminds me of the "simple mode" option in one of the recent Capcom titles(was it MvC3?), where tossing a fireball was dumbed down to just pressing the fireball button. None of this complicated quarter-circle joystick motions required in Manual mode(and judged as the mode "real men" play on). The "simple mode" people would understandably be derided and looked down upon(but it should be noted that there were other features of the game not available to players who chose simple mode as well). I do feel though that now would be the a good time for Browder and crew to just totally go back to the basics, simply asking themselves what SC is supposed to be. Just seems as though they're mixing and matching units concepts which, on their own are cool and new, but are mis-matching which races should get which units, and even the reasons why who's getting what. IMO there should be more emphasis on making zerg feel a lot more swarmier(more 2 for 1 deals), protoss more high quality(expensive, but oh hell you get what you pay for), and terran something in the middle, but flawed duct-taped together human technology(remember how defensive matrix from BW was imperfect...it let 1 dmg in?). Something like that. | ||
|
LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
| ||
|
Chytilova
United States790 Posts
People who know BW can tear me apart now. | ||
|
FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
sc2 advanced mechanically, but at the same time made micro and macro more difficult and increased the game speed. So its on par with broodwar when it comes to difficult, though when comparing it to bw directly people will overlook what makes sc2 more difficult. In HotS they do an blizzard style expansion (i call it mod, since what they change is they remove units, which is different from a standard blizzard expansion, though the overseer was imba :x ), they see whats missing and add it accordingly, and with this system they never failed. Because they will get rid of the easy modes for the races that way, making the game overall more balanced. The corsair is a good example of a super hard conter for just one unit, that made the game better. (but its also because the zerg super anti air conter does some awesome chasing around with the corsair, but voidray vs viking is even better chasing.) knowing blizzard expansions, they won't make the game alot harder, but will get rid of easy modes and make each race more even and add diversity. Because there is no need to make a game harder, when even the best player hasn't even been able to scratch the ceiling. thats my personal opinion i know alot will disagree, but i haven't seen a player doing everything possible so far. | ||
|
askTeivospy
1525 Posts
| ||
|
Playguuu
United States926 Posts
Yeah white-ra is the best. | ||
|
StuartLove
Germany267 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
|
Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
I personally think it would be stupid for blizzard to start limiting the AI though. They just need to remove these stupid ass abilities and units such as ff, colossi, rauder, FG's snare(and perhaps nerf both BL's broodlings and viking's range), All make the game a lot more one dimensional. Also maybe redesign storm and aoe, so storm does same dmg(perhaps larger radius) over longer time and emp does similar. That way a terran army might be able to micro against the storm(rather than guess where the storms will be layed and send your units where you *think* the toss won't place them) and for terran he might be able to fight even though the toss got storms off. Similarly a toss doesn't auto loose if terran gets emps down on the temps and the toss army. + Show Spoiler + I also have a lot of grievances with feedback, which isn't broken, but it just limits terran's options so much and is kind of used to balance the amount of options terran has compared to the few options toss has. I'd rather give toss more options... Edit: Oops forgot WG, which *might* be balanced, but it offers horrible gameplay, where the toss gameplay mostly just relies on non-gw units to win battles and gw units to tank for them/protect them(ht is a bit of an exception, blizz 'balanced' them by making their core ability not useful until after 45 sec, to limit the effectiveness hts get from WG). So WG makes protoss tier 1-tier 1.5 units suck. well done blizz. | ||
| ||
