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On December 03 2011 17:12 D_K_night wrote:
I don't think we can ever agree with how the game should play.
Either you keep the old limitations of BW (only 12 units per control group, clunky unit AI, no smart casting, etc), or you start moving forward with innovation.
The more I read this thread, the more it sounds like people just want BW. There is BW mod for SC2 but not sure how far along the author is - but if it's near done and has some good polish, is there any reason why people can't just gravitate to that?
I don't agree that people want brood war. It's more like people want this game to feel like brood war without necessarily being it.
Actually this can be done with somewhat simple tweaks without going back 12 years. Imho, even a built in delay between smart-casted spells plus slightly more spread out armies could work wonders.
EDIT: When I say "simple tweaks" I don't mean they are actually simple. What I suggested could indeed make a huge difference for better or worse. I mean simple in terms of design variables.
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On December 03 2011 17:42 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 17:38 nvrs wrote:On December 03 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:
Sc2 is already bad enough with all those aoe super powerful no brainer easy to use units (ghost, templar, colo, infestor). Let's add more spellcasting bs on the field so the game gets... worse. This is my opinion and I'm not being a crybaby. If you don't like it don't assume I'm just whining randomly. I'm not blaming my "lack of results" (?!?results that anyway most people who play sc2 all day would love to have) on a bad game since I know it was obviously due to the fact I never liked SC2 for the reasons I stated before so I was never able to enjoy and practice as much as many other tournament winning players. Even if the game is super gamblish and bad players can win against good ones it doesn't mean the very best players in the world are not able to put the results they deserve (and they can still lose to incomparably worse players - watch mlg orlando). Thing is they are gonna add stuff in hots that will probably be sick hard to balance with everything else already and I really wonder if there is any way for units like the oracle or the shredder to not fuck up totally the game. Don't get me wrong, I obviously hope I am just pessimistic and it won't be like this, still it looks pretty grim to me.
edit: and dont call me mid tier foreign player, cause i'm not. thanks. Wow dude, you first claim that you have great results and then go on to say that your lack of results is attributed ti the fact that you didn't like the game in the first place? It's perfectly fine to not like the game and think that HOTS will be bullshit but judging by tournament results overall the game is not as random as you make it out to be. MLG Orlando which you use as an example i would say is the exception that makes the rule. Anyway, glhf he never said he had lack of results....he said "lack of results" just to use the other guys wording. He went on to say he thinks he has results any foreigner would want.
I'm just curious what his results HAVE been. What tournaments has he won, or what notable placements has he achieved? Liquipedia doesn't even have an article on him. His attitude seems similar to TT1's attitude, another mid-tier foreigner who seems frustrated that he can't seem to connect the dots the way players like MVP, Huk or Nestea have.
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On December 03 2011 17:44 Eluadyl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 17:12 D_K_night wrote:
I don't think we can ever agree with how the game should play.
Either you keep the old limitations of BW (only 12 units per control group, clunky unit AI, no smart casting, etc), or you start moving forward with innovation.
The more I read this thread, the more it sounds like people just want BW. There is BW mod for SC2 but not sure how far along the author is - but if it's near done and has some good polish, is there any reason why people can't just gravitate to that? I don't agree that people want brood war. It's more like people want this game to feel like brood war without necessarily being it. Actually this can be done with somewhat simple tweaks without going back 12 years. Imho, even a built in delay between smart-casted spells plus slightly more spread out armies could work wonders.
Even as small a change as having to TAB through each individual spell-caster on a control group to use multiple spells would probably help with this complaint. Storm - tab - Storm - tab - Storm - tab - etc. While still easier than BW, not nearly as simplified as the game doing all that work for you.
EDIT: They could take it a step further and not allow the shift-queuing of spells either. So it would have to go Storm - tab - T - Storm - tab - T - etc.
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On December 03 2011 17:50 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 17:44 Eluadyl wrote:On December 03 2011 17:12 D_K_night wrote:
I don't think we can ever agree with how the game should play.
Either you keep the old limitations of BW (only 12 units per control group, clunky unit AI, no smart casting, etc), or you start moving forward with innovation.
The more I read this thread, the more it sounds like people just want BW. There is BW mod for SC2 but not sure how far along the author is - but if it's near done and has some good polish, is there any reason why people can't just gravitate to that? I don't agree that people want brood war. It's more like people want this game to feel like brood war without necessarily being it. Actually this can be done with somewhat simple tweaks without going back 12 years. Imho, even a built in delay between smart-casted spells plus slightly more spread out armies could work wonders. Even as small a change as having to TAB through each individual spell-caster on a control group to use multiple spells would probably help with this complaint. Storm - tab - Storm - tab - Storm - tab - etc. While still easier than BW, not nearly as simplified as the game doing all that work for you. EDIT: They could take it a step further and not allow the shift-queuing of spells either. So it would have to go Storm - tab - T - Storm - tab - T - etc.
Do you really need to go the point , where like most people in here do , okay since bw is difficult lets make sc2 more difficult , you can only select 1 unit to micro ? , tab ? what's the point of having that , Everything in broodwar from using shift keys to queue up waypoints was necessary so the players can put a probe on patrol to scout around the players base while he macro's and tech's up .
You are making it seem like broodwar player has to go through hell to cast a storm , when it just a matter of selecting the unit and press T , Tab ? scrap that . Even broodwar players do not have to go through using tab do any of your extra annoying mechanics you were suggesting .
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On December 03 2011 18:03 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 17:50 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 17:44 Eluadyl wrote:On December 03 2011 17:12 D_K_night wrote:
I don't think we can ever agree with how the game should play.
Either you keep the old limitations of BW (only 12 units per control group, clunky unit AI, no smart casting, etc), or you start moving forward with innovation.
The more I read this thread, the more it sounds like people just want BW. There is BW mod for SC2 but not sure how far along the author is - but if it's near done and has some good polish, is there any reason why people can't just gravitate to that? I don't agree that people want brood war. It's more like people want this game to feel like brood war without necessarily being it. Actually this can be done with somewhat simple tweaks without going back 12 years. Imho, even a built in delay between smart-casted spells plus slightly more spread out armies could work wonders. Even as small a change as having to TAB through each individual spell-caster on a control group to use multiple spells would probably help with this complaint. Storm - tab - Storm - tab - Storm - tab - etc. While still easier than BW, not nearly as simplified as the game doing all that work for you. EDIT: They could take it a step further and not allow the shift-queuing of spells either. So it would have to go Storm - tab - T - Storm - tab - T - etc. Do you really need to go the point , where like most people in here do , okay since bw is difficult lets make sc2 more difficult , you can only select 1 unit to micro ? , tab ? what's the point of having that , Everything in broodwar from using shift keys to queue up waypoints was necessary so the players can put a probe on patrol to scout around the players base while he macro's and tech's up . You are making it seem like broodwar player has to go through hell to cast a storm , when it just a matter of selecting the unit and press T , Tab ? scrap that . Even broodwar players do not have to go through using tab do any of your extra annoying mechanics you were suggesting .
Right, all they have to do instead of using 5 templars on a hotkey and shift-queuing a ton of storms is individually click each one and THEN storm. WAY easier than Tab, am I right? Have you ever played BW?
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On December 03 2011 18:03 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 17:50 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 17:44 Eluadyl wrote:On December 03 2011 17:12 D_K_night wrote:
I don't think we can ever agree with how the game should play.
Either you keep the old limitations of BW (only 12 units per control group, clunky unit AI, no smart casting, etc), or you start moving forward with innovation.
The more I read this thread, the more it sounds like people just want BW. There is BW mod for SC2 but not sure how far along the author is - but if it's near done and has some good polish, is there any reason why people can't just gravitate to that? I don't agree that people want brood war. It's more like people want this game to feel like brood war without necessarily being it. Actually this can be done with somewhat simple tweaks without going back 12 years. Imho, even a built in delay between smart-casted spells plus slightly more spread out armies could work wonders. Even as small a change as having to TAB through each individual spell-caster on a control group to use multiple spells would probably help with this complaint. Storm - tab - Storm - tab - Storm - tab - etc. While still easier than BW, not nearly as simplified as the game doing all that work for you. EDIT: They could take it a step further and not allow the shift-queuing of spells either. So it would have to go Storm - tab - T - Storm - tab - T - etc. Do you really need to go the point , where like most people in here do , okay since bw is difficult lets make sc2 more difficult , you can only select 1 unit to micro ? , tab ? what's the point of having that , Everything in broodwar from using shift keys to queue up waypoints was necessary so the players can put a probe on patrol to scout around the players base while he macro's and tech's up . You are making it seem like broodwar player has to go through hell to cast a storm , when it just a matter of selecting the unit and press T , Tab ? scrap that . Even broodwar players do not have to go through using tab do any of your extra annoying mechanics you were suggesting .
In broodwar if you have 15 templar selected and use storm, they all storm the same spot.
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On December 03 2011 18:06 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 18:03 Sawamura wrote:On December 03 2011 17:50 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 17:44 Eluadyl wrote:On December 03 2011 17:12 D_K_night wrote:
I don't think we can ever agree with how the game should play.
Either you keep the old limitations of BW (only 12 units per control group, clunky unit AI, no smart casting, etc), or you start moving forward with innovation.
The more I read this thread, the more it sounds like people just want BW. There is BW mod for SC2 but not sure how far along the author is - but if it's near done and has some good polish, is there any reason why people can't just gravitate to that? I don't agree that people want brood war. It's more like people want this game to feel like brood war without necessarily being it. Actually this can be done with somewhat simple tweaks without going back 12 years. Imho, even a built in delay between smart-casted spells plus slightly more spread out armies could work wonders. Even as small a change as having to TAB through each individual spell-caster on a control group to use multiple spells would probably help with this complaint. Storm - tab - Storm - tab - Storm - tab - etc. While still easier than BW, not nearly as simplified as the game doing all that work for you. EDIT: They could take it a step further and not allow the shift-queuing of spells either. So it would have to go Storm - tab - T - Storm - tab - T - etc. Do you really need to go the point , where like most people in here do , okay since bw is difficult lets make sc2 more difficult , you can only select 1 unit to micro ? , tab ? what's the point of having that , Everything in broodwar from using shift keys to queue up waypoints was necessary so the players can put a probe on patrol to scout around the players base while he macro's and tech's up . You are making it seem like broodwar player has to go through hell to cast a storm , when it just a matter of selecting the unit and press T , Tab ? scrap that . Even broodwar players do not have to go through using tab do any of your extra annoying mechanics you were suggesting . Right, all they have to do instead of using 5 templars on a hotkey and shift-queuing a ton of storms is individually click each one and THEN storm. WAY easier than Tab, am I right? Have you ever played BW?
I played broodwar and I am D+ protoss iccup , selecting each high templars to storms is pretty easy in my opinion....
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On December 03 2011 18:08 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 18:06 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 18:03 Sawamura wrote:On December 03 2011 17:50 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 17:44 Eluadyl wrote:On December 03 2011 17:12 D_K_night wrote:
I don't think we can ever agree with how the game should play.
Either you keep the old limitations of BW (only 12 units per control group, clunky unit AI, no smart casting, etc), or you start moving forward with innovation.
The more I read this thread, the more it sounds like people just want BW. There is BW mod for SC2 but not sure how far along the author is - but if it's near done and has some good polish, is there any reason why people can't just gravitate to that? I don't agree that people want brood war. It's more like people want this game to feel like brood war without necessarily being it. Actually this can be done with somewhat simple tweaks without going back 12 years. Imho, even a built in delay between smart-casted spells plus slightly more spread out armies could work wonders. Even as small a change as having to TAB through each individual spell-caster on a control group to use multiple spells would probably help with this complaint. Storm - tab - Storm - tab - Storm - tab - etc. While still easier than BW, not nearly as simplified as the game doing all that work for you. EDIT: They could take it a step further and not allow the shift-queuing of spells either. So it would have to go Storm - tab - T - Storm - tab - T - etc. Do you really need to go the point , where like most people in here do , okay since bw is difficult lets make sc2 more difficult , you can only select 1 unit to micro ? , tab ? what's the point of having that , Everything in broodwar from using shift keys to queue up waypoints was necessary so the players can put a probe on patrol to scout around the players base while he macro's and tech's up . You are making it seem like broodwar player has to go through hell to cast a storm , when it just a matter of selecting the unit and press T , Tab ? scrap that . Even broodwar players do not have to go through using tab do any of your extra annoying mechanics you were suggesting . Right, all they have to do instead of using 5 templars on a hotkey and shift-queuing a ton of storms is individually click each one and THEN storm. WAY easier than Tab, am I right? Have you ever played BW? I played broodwar and I am D+ protoss iccup , selecting each high templars to storms is pretty easy in my opinion....
If you need to control 5 Templars, selecting individual temps is not NEARLY as easy as Tabing through individual templars on a single control group. The closest you can get to that kind of simplicity of control is putting each individual templar on a ctrl group.
What I proposed as a hypothetical solution to a common complaint is a compromise between the two difficulties.
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On December 03 2011 18:13 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 18:08 Sawamura wrote:On December 03 2011 18:06 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 18:03 Sawamura wrote:On December 03 2011 17:50 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 17:44 Eluadyl wrote:On December 03 2011 17:12 D_K_night wrote:
I don't think we can ever agree with how the game should play.
Either you keep the old limitations of BW (only 12 units per control group, clunky unit AI, no smart casting, etc), or you start moving forward with innovation.
The more I read this thread, the more it sounds like people just want BW. There is BW mod for SC2 but not sure how far along the author is - but if it's near done and has some good polish, is there any reason why people can't just gravitate to that? I don't agree that people want brood war. It's more like people want this game to feel like brood war without necessarily being it. Actually this can be done with somewhat simple tweaks without going back 12 years. Imho, even a built in delay between smart-casted spells plus slightly more spread out armies could work wonders. Even as small a change as having to TAB through each individual spell-caster on a control group to use multiple spells would probably help with this complaint. Storm - tab - Storm - tab - Storm - tab - etc. While still easier than BW, not nearly as simplified as the game doing all that work for you. EDIT: They could take it a step further and not allow the shift-queuing of spells either. So it would have to go Storm - tab - T - Storm - tab - T - etc. Do you really need to go the point , where like most people in here do , okay since bw is difficult lets make sc2 more difficult , you can only select 1 unit to micro ? , tab ? what's the point of having that , Everything in broodwar from using shift keys to queue up waypoints was necessary so the players can put a probe on patrol to scout around the players base while he macro's and tech's up . You are making it seem like broodwar player has to go through hell to cast a storm , when it just a matter of selecting the unit and press T , Tab ? scrap that . Even broodwar players do not have to go through using tab do any of your extra annoying mechanics you were suggesting . Right, all they have to do instead of using 5 templars on a hotkey and shift-queuing a ton of storms is individually click each one and THEN storm. WAY easier than Tab, am I right? Have you ever played BW? I played broodwar and I am D+ protoss iccup , selecting each high templars to storms is pretty easy in my opinion.... If you need to control 5 Templars, selecting individual temps is not NEARLY as easy as Tabing through individual templars on a single control group. The closest you can get to that kind of simplicity of control is putting each individual templar on a ctrl group. What I proposed as a hypothetical solution to a common complaint is a compromise between the two difficulties.
it's not going to happen , unless blizzard hires you, in LOTV game development team.
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On December 03 2011 18:16 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 18:13 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 18:08 Sawamura wrote:On December 03 2011 18:06 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 18:03 Sawamura wrote:On December 03 2011 17:50 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 17:44 Eluadyl wrote:On December 03 2011 17:12 D_K_night wrote:
I don't think we can ever agree with how the game should play.
Either you keep the old limitations of BW (only 12 units per control group, clunky unit AI, no smart casting, etc), or you start moving forward with innovation.
The more I read this thread, the more it sounds like people just want BW. There is BW mod for SC2 but not sure how far along the author is - but if it's near done and has some good polish, is there any reason why people can't just gravitate to that? I don't agree that people want brood war. It's more like people want this game to feel like brood war without necessarily being it. Actually this can be done with somewhat simple tweaks without going back 12 years. Imho, even a built in delay between smart-casted spells plus slightly more spread out armies could work wonders. Even as small a change as having to TAB through each individual spell-caster on a control group to use multiple spells would probably help with this complaint. Storm - tab - Storm - tab - Storm - tab - etc. While still easier than BW, not nearly as simplified as the game doing all that work for you. EDIT: They could take it a step further and not allow the shift-queuing of spells either. So it would have to go Storm - tab - T - Storm - tab - T - etc. Do you really need to go the point , where like most people in here do , okay since bw is difficult lets make sc2 more difficult , you can only select 1 unit to micro ? , tab ? what's the point of having that , Everything in broodwar from using shift keys to queue up waypoints was necessary so the players can put a probe on patrol to scout around the players base while he macro's and tech's up . You are making it seem like broodwar player has to go through hell to cast a storm , when it just a matter of selecting the unit and press T , Tab ? scrap that . Even broodwar players do not have to go through using tab do any of your extra annoying mechanics you were suggesting . Right, all they have to do instead of using 5 templars on a hotkey and shift-queuing a ton of storms is individually click each one and THEN storm. WAY easier than Tab, am I right? Have you ever played BW? I played broodwar and I am D+ protoss iccup , selecting each high templars to storms is pretty easy in my opinion.... If you need to control 5 Templars, selecting individual temps is not NEARLY as easy as Tabing through individual templars on a single control group. The closest you can get to that kind of simplicity of control is putting each individual templar on a ctrl group. What I proposed as a hypothetical solution to a common complaint is a compromise between the two difficulties. it's not going to happen , unless blizzard hires you, in LOTV game development team.
I think you've misinterpreted my "theorycraft" which was simply meant as a discussion point, for an actual suggestion that I want to see in the game. I'm quite alright with spell-casting the way it is now, and am under no illusion that intentionally breaking the UI simply to make the mechanics of a strategy game more difficult is the best decision to make when trying to separate skill-tiers.
I personally believe that, inasmuch as it's possible, proper decision-making should be rewarded more heavily than superior mechanics.
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'I'm waiting for it because I can make more special tactics
did whitera really just wrote that?
thats hilarious :D
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On December 03 2011 08:40 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 08:32 VanGarde wrote:On December 03 2011 07:35 noxn wrote:On December 03 2011 07:12 VanGarde wrote:
No offense to Cloud but it is getting silly how all of the mid tier foreign players are the ones who whine that the game is too random and the skill cap is too low so there is no point in competing. Unless you are beating mvp or nestea in gsl finals arguments like that are completely irrelevant when it comes to actually competing in the game. Seriously stop using how "flawed the game is" to explain away a lack of results. These kinds of comments always only come from the players who play seriously but who are never seen in the top of tournaments. Sure, but I've seen the same thing before in other games. When someone "at the top" complains, then someone will say "if the game is so bad, then how come nestea and mvp have won so many championships? seems pretty consistent/balanced to me". it's a bit of a catch 22. anyway, there's nothing wrong with what cloud said. you don't have to be amongst the top 5 players in the world to have a valid opinion on the game. plus, as someone who came from wow - I can see why he's concerned. Blizzard is known for having killed the competitive aspect of WoW back in wotlk when they added all kinds of new jazz, realized how broken it was half a year later, and failed to balance it. I think you and several others are vastly missing the point, whether it is true or not that sc2 is really random and bad players can get good results by "throwing the dice" is a different question. Still one I would argue against with passion. Clouds statement puts it like he stopped playing because it is not worth it, you don't have to be good to get good results, which is just sulking when you have not gotten the results you want and saying "whatever this game is stupid, you can win stuff with random shit so I am not going to bother playing anymore". And yes your results actually do matter. If any of the very top players were to go out and say that the game is too random, I could lose to anyone because in every game I have to throw a dice then that would be a huge statement. There is a vast difference between saying there is randomness in the game and suggesting that there is no point competing because the game is so random that anyone can win. By giving up on sc2 I just meant I gave up on my hopes for an exciting sequel of SCBW. I didn't give up playing actually I'm playing more than I ever did in the past 2 months. Still, at least from my level of competence, I can see so many worse players winning by making random moves with no logics behind it, even in big tournaments, against players who actually are overall much better and just got unlucky, didn't watch the right screen for a split second cause any aoe in the game is too strong or they simply couldn't scout what was going on so they had to take a game changing blind decision. This happened in SCBW too but to a much, much, much smaller degree, and the fact the game also required to have good mechanics and multitasking allowed the pro scene to weed out many players that couldn't get at the level of the best ones.
Maybe you should quit being a professional gamer and get a normal job and play bw in spare time. Im not having a go, i'm just saying maybe that would be more enjoyable for you.
I find it funny when casters say "X has such insane macro" when all you have to do even when things are going on all over the place is just press 6 then hold a for a few seconds. then smartcasting is just silly. "great storms"....hmmm not that hard. even then you still see many protoss storming bio kiting chargelots meaning chargelots take more damage from the storm. I agree that it seems in brood war even if the far superior player finds themself slightly behind there are just so many ways for their skill to shine through that they virtually always still come out on top. whereas in sc2 it seems once a player gets behind or the first engagement goes badly there's almost no way back. Obviously on average the stronger players win more often still in sc2 but even as a shit player in bw I would never beat flash at 200 attempts whereas I honestly think give me 20/30 games against nestea and I'd take one off him eventually.
" And yes your results actually do matter. If any of the very top players were to go out and say that the game is too random, I could lose to anyone because in every game I have to throw a dice then that would be a huge statement." ever heard idra 
I still think sc2 is a 'good' game just not amazing like bw. It's less about mechanics and more (focussed on) strategy. I also really appreciate the thriving sc2 foreign scene, rather than just wishing sc2 would die or people stop watching it I'd rather more attention be paid to the foreign bw scene and people appreciate both as some of the top current bw foreigners are probably way better 'technically' at rts' than many 'pro' sc2 players and it suck they get a tiny fraction of the money and fame just because they play the game they love rather than playing a game they don't like just for money.
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On December 03 2011 18:25 nehl wrote:did whitera really just wrote that? thats hilarious :D
This guy has the mindset man! LOL
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On December 03 2011 18:22 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 18:16 Sawamura wrote:On December 03 2011 18:13 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 18:08 Sawamura wrote:On December 03 2011 18:06 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 18:03 Sawamura wrote:On December 03 2011 17:50 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 17:44 Eluadyl wrote:On December 03 2011 17:12 D_K_night wrote:
I don't think we can ever agree with how the game should play.
Either you keep the old limitations of BW (only 12 units per control group, clunky unit AI, no smart casting, etc), or you start moving forward with innovation.
The more I read this thread, the more it sounds like people just want BW. There is BW mod for SC2 but not sure how far along the author is - but if it's near done and has some good polish, is there any reason why people can't just gravitate to that? I don't agree that people want brood war. It's more like people want this game to feel like brood war without necessarily being it. Actually this can be done with somewhat simple tweaks without going back 12 years. Imho, even a built in delay between smart-casted spells plus slightly more spread out armies could work wonders. Even as small a change as having to TAB through each individual spell-caster on a control group to use multiple spells would probably help with this complaint. Storm - tab - Storm - tab - Storm - tab - etc. While still easier than BW, not nearly as simplified as the game doing all that work for you. EDIT: They could take it a step further and not allow the shift-queuing of spells either. So it would have to go Storm - tab - T - Storm - tab - T - etc. Do you really need to go the point , where like most people in here do , okay since bw is difficult lets make sc2 more difficult , you can only select 1 unit to micro ? , tab ? what's the point of having that , Everything in broodwar from using shift keys to queue up waypoints was necessary so the players can put a probe on patrol to scout around the players base while he macro's and tech's up . You are making it seem like broodwar player has to go through hell to cast a storm , when it just a matter of selecting the unit and press T , Tab ? scrap that . Even broodwar players do not have to go through using tab do any of your extra annoying mechanics you were suggesting . Right, all they have to do instead of using 5 templars on a hotkey and shift-queuing a ton of storms is individually click each one and THEN storm. WAY easier than Tab, am I right? Have you ever played BW? I played broodwar and I am D+ protoss iccup , selecting each high templars to storms is pretty easy in my opinion.... If you need to control 5 Templars, selecting individual temps is not NEARLY as easy as Tabing through individual templars on a single control group. The closest you can get to that kind of simplicity of control is putting each individual templar on a ctrl group. What I proposed as a hypothetical solution to a common complaint is a compromise between the two difficulties. it's not going to happen , unless blizzard hires you, in LOTV game development team. I think you've misinterpreted my "theorycraft" which was simply meant as a discussion point, for an actual suggestion that I want to see in the game. I'm quite alright with spell-casting the way it is now, and am under no illusion that intentionally breaking the UI simply to make the mechanics of a strategy game more difficult is the best decision to make when trying to separate skill-tiers. I personally believe that, inasmuch as it's possible, proper decision-making should be rewarded more heavily than superior mechanics.
Proper decision making comes from experience and not just mindless spam and win for the player with superior mechanics .Let's take example of hyuk having 470 apm and Flash has only 360 apm , Does flash stand a chance against hyuk ? Of course on first impression would be " wow such a high apm from a progamer he has to be GOOD right ? " , sadly he isn't when you watch hyuk games vs fantasy or even flash , you will be wondering , where is the apm is going to when he casually allows fantasy to drop all over the place when a single sunken could have deter fantasy drop play , Correct decision ? or merely mindless spamming at hatcheries ? Is the question .
Flash doesn't even spams as much as hyuk and yet you see his game sense and "Proper decision making " really shine ,ranging from his deliberate line of siege of tank which is unbreakable , to his really sound TvT , in which he is almost unbeatable .It's not a matter of illusion that we are having here the fact is UI interface in broodwar ,which is outdated to many has given us opportunity to play the game as it is , difficult and yet very simple to understand .
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aPG9r.jpg)
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On December 03 2011 18:08 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 18:06 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 18:03 Sawamura wrote:On December 03 2011 17:50 Nemireck wrote:On December 03 2011 17:44 Eluadyl wrote:On December 03 2011 17:12 D_K_night wrote:
I don't think we can ever agree with how the game should play.
Either you keep the old limitations of BW (only 12 units per control group, clunky unit AI, no smart casting, etc), or you start moving forward with innovation.
The more I read this thread, the more it sounds like people just want BW. There is BW mod for SC2 but not sure how far along the author is - but if it's near done and has some good polish, is there any reason why people can't just gravitate to that? I don't agree that people want brood war. It's more like people want this game to feel like brood war without necessarily being it. Actually this can be done with somewhat simple tweaks without going back 12 years. Imho, even a built in delay between smart-casted spells plus slightly more spread out armies could work wonders. Even as small a change as having to TAB through each individual spell-caster on a control group to use multiple spells would probably help with this complaint. Storm - tab - Storm - tab - Storm - tab - etc. While still easier than BW, not nearly as simplified as the game doing all that work for you. EDIT: They could take it a step further and not allow the shift-queuing of spells either. So it would have to go Storm - tab - T - Storm - tab - T - etc. Do you really need to go the point , where like most people in here do , okay since bw is difficult lets make sc2 more difficult , you can only select 1 unit to micro ? , tab ? what's the point of having that , Everything in broodwar from using shift keys to queue up waypoints was necessary so the players can put a probe on patrol to scout around the players base while he macro's and tech's up . You are making it seem like broodwar player has to go through hell to cast a storm , when it just a matter of selecting the unit and press T , Tab ? scrap that . Even broodwar players do not have to go through using tab do any of your extra annoying mechanics you were suggesting . Right, all they have to do instead of using 5 templars on a hotkey and shift-queuing a ton of storms is individually click each one and THEN storm. WAY easier than Tab, am I right? Have you ever played BW? I played broodwar and I am D+ protoss iccup , selecting each high templars to storms is pretty easy in my opinion....
not when you have a cheap crappy £3 chinese mouse
yeah it's not that hard but doing it quickly before they get sniped or that your storms are too late to help is certainly more tricky without smartcasting.
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What I don't quite get about these threads is that they are made up of two kinds of posts. Ones that are saying "Brood War was fine, why did you change it?" and the others saying "This is fine as it is, why change it?"
If this game can be made more fun and satisfactory, by whatever means, it should be done. I don't see the reason to oppose people who want their game to be as good as it can be. Instead of blocking each other people should learn to make a productive discussion by presenting insight, examples and making a good point.
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How are these arguments about sc2 being worse even valid? If you compare BW to SC2, at least compare the games to their times from the release. Are you going to even bother to tell me that "worse" players never won when they did something random? This game is young, come back in a couple of years and comment again. And complaining that worse players can win is stupid. If the "better" player won every game, the competitive aspect of this game would be gone. For any sport, upsets happen when the worse team beats the better team, its natural. And overall the randomness of this game everybody claims is irrelevant, everything that happens is intended to happen. Units can't dodge and no random stats like that affect the gameplay. If you're going to make a claim that sc2 is a terrible game or not competitive at all, at least back it up properly and give better examples, other than BW which is not comparable because of the ages of the games.
Edit" Nvm, it doesn't matter. If you believe that then there is nothing I can say to change that as there is nothing you can say to change mines, so whatever.
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I hate the argument "SC2 is too easy and it makes the game worse". Chess is an easy game to learn. Does that make it bad? SC2 is easy to learn compared to BW, but no one has come close to mastering it yet.
Cloud did make a good point though with the 6 gate example in PvT. But I think that has more to do with a design flaw in the warp gate mechanic taking away defenders advantage more than making the game "too easy".
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On December 03 2011 18:39 AlphaNoodle wrote:
How are these arguments about sc2 being worse even valid? If you compare BW to SC2, at least compare the games to their times from the release. Are you going to even bother to tell me that "worse" players never won when they did something random? This game is young, come back in a couple of years and comment again. And complaining that worse players can win is stupid. If the "better" player won every game, the competitive aspect of this game would be gone. For any sport, upsets happen when the worse team beats the better team, its natural. And overall the randomness of this game everybody claims is irrelevant, everything that happens is intended to happen. Units can't dodge and no random stats like that affect the gameplay. If you're going to make a claim that sc2 is a terrible game or not competitive at all, at least back it up properly and give better examples, other than BW which is not comparable because of the ages of the games.
On December 03 2011 18:39 happyness wrote:
I hate the argument "SC2 is too easy and it makes the game worse". Chess is an easy game to learn. Does that make it bad? SC2 is easy to learn compared to BW, but no one has come close to mastering it yet.
Cloud did make a good point though with the 6 gate example in PvT. But I think that has more to do with a design flaw in the warp gate mechanic taking away defenders advantage more than making the game "too easy".
Both of these post talks about the time factor , well I will play along with you , Broodwar was released in the year 1998 and recently SC2 has been released in the year 2009 , How long has the development and game design has been taken place ? Roughly 10 years , one would have think from the experience of a good developer they would have been able to make a successor as worthy of it's predecessor . Common argument against broodwar , Bad AI , Unbearable Graphics, Very easy but hard to master macro and micro mechanics than again if the Bad AI has been really that bad , shouldn't stork or bisu be smashing their keyboard on the desk every time their dragoon freezes in their attempt to destroy a tank line ?
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EPT
