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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
IdrA seems to be pretty clear on what he thinks about SC2 (stupid game, only switched because its easier to make money than BW, etc). Tasteless seems worn out with SC2 when I see him casting (he looks kinda bored), but he looks so excited when I saw his new BW castings on Arirang. Artosis "nerdchills" also seems kinda forced (something normal happens -> nerdchills). | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On December 04 2011 19:17 Sanchonator wrote: tbc > vanilla > cata = wotlk ;p at least on the "fun scale" maybe it just got stale for me after tbc  excuse me...tbc > VANILLA? are you fucking kidding me man!?!?!?!?!? you NEVER played vanilla then obviously! get the demons out of you man! Sounds kinda weird but I mean my best memories of having a good time were in vanilla wow with all my friends O.O best raids, best content, bar none, if there was a vanilla wow server that was ran through blizzard i would sub to wow again in a heart beat. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On December 04 2011 23:25 dignitas.merz wrote: Our definitions of greedy differs then. Greedy for me is something that will be easily punishable by blind all-ins and such. You don't want to play like that vs someone you feel you can beat if you can take it to the mid to late game. Doing so, to me, feels a bit ignorant and you are just underestimating your opponents ability to punish your greedyness early on. yes by blind all ins, thats the thing. I dont think thats underestimating, because its not really decided by skill what build you decide to go for right when the game starts. Its not so much about ability but rather about luck/chance, unless its a greedy build that can just always be punished after it's scouted, but then its just a bad build. Or if someone just goes for a greedy build every game, thats kinda relying on your opponent to be stupid and not adapt, but thats not what im talking about. I didnt wanna focus just on greedy builds though, but rather on the importance of mixing it up, of being unpredictable. HerO did a nice job of that in the Dreamhack finals for example. If you instead just go for the safest build every time against a certain opponent, then to me that is underestimating your opponent. And your "someone you feel you can beat if you can take it to the mid to late game" is that exact kind of underestimating (unless of course you really just are that much better than ur opponent). | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On December 04 2011 23:32 fabiano wrote: I agree with cloud. IdrA seems to be pretty clear on what he thinks about SC2 (stupid game, only switched because its easier to make money than BW, etc). Tasteless seems worn out with SC2 when I see him casting (he looks kinda bored), but he looks so excited when I saw his new BW castings on Arirang. Artosis "nerdchills" also seems kinda forced (something normal happens -> nerdchills). Sure artosis exaggerates a lot, he always has, ("his life is a hyperbole" .. i dont know where I got this quote from but it just came to mind,maybe from sotg ) but I think hes pretty damn passionate about the game. | ||
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Suohhen
United States59 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9419 Posts
On December 04 2011 23:38 7mk wrote: yes by blind all ins, thats the thing. I dont think thats underestimating, because its not really decided by skill what build you decide to go for right when the game starts. Its not so much about ability but rather about luck/chance, unless its a greedy build that can just always be punished after it's scouted, but then its just a bad build. Or if someone just goes for a greedy build every game, thats kinda relying on your opponent to be stupid and not adapt, but thats not what im talking about. I didnt wanna focus just on greedy builds though, but rather on the importance of mixing it up, of being unpredictable. HerO did a nice job of that in the Dreamhack finals for example. If you instead just go for the safest build every time against a certain opponent, then to me that is underestimating your opponent. And your "someone you feel you can beat if you can take it to the mid to late game" is that exact kind of underestimating (unless of course you really just are that much better than ur opponent). If you play 100% standard every game, then you will never get any build order win, but neigher any build order loss. You will only win if oyur mechanics are better than your opponent. This is IMO the best way to learn to get better, though in tournaments i think most ppl will agree that doing an allin or playing greedy once in a while is pretty smart. | ||
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AutomatonOmega
United States706 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Why does it matter so much for them how well the game is balanced?? There is a good chance the race they are playing will be perfectly competetive and if it's really that bad they can always switch for a moment. Some games had their best competition during a time of imbalance and it generally doesn't affect the pro scene that much. Was GSL really that worse for the pro's when it was terran dominated? The general public can be affected by imbalance because it decreases the fun for them but I don't see why pro's need to whine about it that much, who blames them if they simply choose to play what they think is the strongest race?? Also it's ludicrous to think the expansion will take as long to balance as the original game. First of all the amount of changes is much less compared to introducing an entire new game and many aspects like maps will probably be much better from the get go whereas sc2 WoL also had those issues. Besides that the game changes brought in HotS mostly affect units that are not made really early, the standard units for each race (marine/marauder, zealot/stalker, ling/roach) don't seem to get any changes to the initial framework will stay the same... The amount of 'broken' builds with HoTs will be MUCH and MUCH less then with WoL because there simply aren't many new rush builds available.. the new units only enter the game late. Lategame units rarely affect balance much so I don't see why people are so afraid HoTs will change balance completely.. Cloud's comment is completely ludicrous as well it's just another one of those whine arguments like Idra and Lucifron used to make too, which basically boils down to this: people much worse then me (in my opinion) are doing better then me, ergo the game must be flawed. Pathetic whining for a 'pro' player. Gambling will never give a player consistent results and if it does it is no longer called gambling.. It means those players then have a certain read on players allowing them to do well.. It's incredibly annoying to hear idiots try to decide for everyone what skill should consist off and what parts are luck.. Also the article itself is biased I think, lines like this: "With a general consensus of negativity surrounding Heart Of The Swarm, could this mean a stutter in the rise of e-sports?" are annoying to read as it doesn't reflect what the players said at all. It's just the writer's own opinion disguised as 'the general consensus' of the pro's. It's bad journalism to conclude with that kind of sentences.. | ||
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Raygun
348 Posts
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Kar98
Australia924 Posts
On December 04 2011 23:32 fabiano wrote: I agree with cloud. IdrA seems to be pretty clear on what he thinks about SC2 (stupid game, only switched because its easier to make money than BW, etc). Tasteless seems worn out with SC2 when I see him casting (he looks kinda bored), but he looks so excited when I saw his new BW castings on Arirang. Artosis "nerdchills" also seems kinda forced (something normal happens -> nerdchills). When did Idra say he only switched due to money? | ||
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Tortious_Tortoise
United States944 Posts
On December 05 2011 00:03 Raygun wrote: I wish there were more players like Cloud that speak their minds so frankly about the game. Agree or disagree, it's very refreshing to read. The problem is not that people speak their minds. Under normal circumstances, that's good. But eSports is like a greedy, economic, macro-oriented build: it's fragile, dangerous, and easy to irreparably damage or kill, but, if unpunished, it will develop into an unstoppable midgame. I guess the easier, more accurate way of saying this is, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
On December 04 2011 23:53 AutomatonOmega wrote: I think we can all look to Idra's blog post if we want to get a sense of how Cloud's comment stacks up in comparison with his relative level of skill at the game. Granted, that was written back when they were BW players, but it makes for an interesting read anyways, and it's also notably funny that it's his ONLY blog entry in the whole time he's been here, and he calls Cloud out by name in the first paragraph. That blog was a troll written by Incontrol to make fun of the fact USA got destroyed in USA vs EU before Blizzcon and Idra got mad as fuck shaking with anger while losing. And it was actually Incontrol's finest creation on TL I would say. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
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ScaryGhost
49 Posts
On December 03 2011 06:35 wraggy1234 wrote: Here is a preview: Cloud: 'I think the expansion will be a mess and blizzard won't be able to balance and control what they are about to do. I have very little expectations and I gave up on sc2 since it seems so many bad players can have decent results by just abusing the gamble aspect of this game.' Funny Cloud should say that, as he is one of those players, and really isn't good enough to talk down on people. I do agree that it'll be a total balance mess though, I can already foresee some of the abusable tactics, maybe with enough beta testing it'll be OK though. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On December 04 2011 23:56 Markwerf wrote: I don't get why all these pro's whine about a possible imbalance. Why does it matter so much for them how well the game is balanced?? There is a good chance the race they are playing will be perfectly competetive and if it's really that bad they can always switch for a moment. Some games had their best competition during a time of imbalance and it generally doesn't affect the pro scene that much. Was GSL really that worse for the pro's when it was terran dominated? The general public can be affected by imbalance because it decreases the fun for them but I don't see why pro's need to whine about it that much, who blames them if they simply choose to play what they think is the strongest race?? ??? Think about it. If your livelihood depends on this game like the pros do, wouldn't you care if the race you picked arbitrarily beforehand had blatant disadvantages? I'm not saying that's the case, in fact balance should definitely not be decided by pros who's lives depend on the balance of 1 race. Most pros probably don't play for the money alone, they play because they like gaming and happen to be good at it, enough to make money out of it. Everyone have their style of play, so it's not as simple as "switch races then fool". The game thrives on the premise of having 3 balanced yet different factions, if only 1 race dominates of course it's bad for both the pros who happen to not play the "good" race and the players who cheers for them. What games have a healthy pro scene while having glaring imbalance?? I bet you that none of them can achieve even a tiny fraction of Starcraft's popularity. | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
There is a slew of valid complaints about what Blizzard has chosen to show from HotS, and I for one am happy that some players have the guts to say what they really think of it. @ "It's not done yet" argument - this is the worst point you can make. I noticed people invoke this argument whenever anyone says anything negative, and yet hypocritically it is seldom invoked by those very same people when anyone is gushing over Blizzard/HotS. The reality is that Blizzard showed us its current plans for HotS. Some people like it, but why is it so hard to accept that some people hate it? Many of the points are valid, too, because of how Dustin Browder and David Kim explained their thought process. One major, and relatively objective argument that is free from emotion (no 'butthurt') is that the balance team is creating units with very narrow roles, and also have shown that they are simply not aware of the real issues that have been resonating throughout the community over the last year. Blizzard has proposed units which completely misunderstand the problems pointed out by the pro community, and instead solves another set of cases which never really were problematic. I expected better, even for this stage of development, and it shouldn't be that hard to see why (be honest). I do understand why some people like it though. Just as that does not shock me, do not be shocked that it's actually possible for Blizzard to make some wrong moves. | ||
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fritfrat
United States50 Posts
On December 04 2011 23:19 Hider wrote: Lol ppl dont want hots to come out soon? Tvp is abosllutely broken. Boring matchup and way too easy for mediocore toss players to win. At hots both races will require a lot of skill to win, and terran will be able to use mech .Personally I just quit sc2 cus of tvp. Did you ever think of playing Zerg..? | ||
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ch72105
24 Posts
On December 04 2011 04:36 aTnClouD wrote: Day9 gets an insane amount of money because he got famous with his dailies and other activities. If anything I noticed that the more time passed the more he catered to mainstream public and less to a strict elitist rts group of people. I don't know Day9 well enough to say what he really thinks (and even if I did I wouldn't out of respect for him) but I know for sure many progamers and casters are just not speaking honestly their mind when they talk about the game in public. This is very true. I don't think people understand the level of contempt ex-BW players have for SC2, and that includes pretty much all of the most successful progamers and casters. People keep their mouths shut because they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them, and SC2 is feeding them right now. Idra coming out and venting to the community about how laughable the game is for high level esports competition is only going to hurt him, for Day9 it'd damn near end his career and sever relationships he has with Blizzard. I think if Day9 started giving his 100% honest opinions of SC2 tomorrow, it might cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars in lifetime earnings. Any caster, speaking honestly about SC2 would simply end their career. You get glimpses of it occasionally, like Idra venting on his stream after losing to a dice throw, or inControl in this interview, but even in those examples these guys are really holding back. All these guys could write a 10,000-word thesis on how and why SC2 is really poorly designed for competitive play. For weeks, maybe even months after the game came out, you couldn't even discuss it on TL. I saw them deleting posts and temp banning anyone who criticized SC2 in any way, and it was happening left and right. I don't think we'll really see much open criticism of the game from the people who know it best until the money dries up, and by then maybe we still won't just because nobody cares anymore. | ||
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FatkiddsLag
United States413 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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FatkiddsLag
United States413 Posts
On December 05 2011 03:39 Brotocol wrote: I find it a bit disturbing how easily people dismiss any negative comments outright, saying that Cloud is "a baby" or not good enough to comment, or "it's too early to comment." and what would you suggest then? youre on a sc forum. you can either give up like cloud, in which case you shouldnt be posting at all. or you could hope that blizzard completely changes their mind and the direction in which they are taking the game, which is unlikely. | ||
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