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On December 05 2011 05:58 ch72105 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 04:36 aTnClouD wrote:
Day9 gets an insane amount of money because he got famous with his dailies and other activities. If anything I noticed that the more time passed the more he catered to mainstream public and less to a strict elitist rts group of people. I don't know Day9 well enough to say what he really thinks (and even if I did I wouldn't out of respect for him) but I know for sure many progamers and casters are just not speaking honestly their mind when they talk about the game in public. This is very true. I don't think people understand the level of contempt ex-BW players have for SC2, and that includes pretty much all of the most successful progamers and casters. People keep their mouths shut because they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them, and SC2 is feeding them right now. Idra coming out and venting to the community about how laughable the game is for high level esports competition is only going to hurt him, for Day9 it'd damn near end his career and sever relationships he has with Blizzard. I think if Day9 started giving his 100% honest opinions of SC2 tomorrow, it might cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars in lifetime earnings. Any caster, speaking honestly about SC2 would simply end their career. You get glimpses of it occasionally, like Idra venting on his stream after losing to a dice throw, or inControl in this interview, but even in those examples these guys are really holding back. All these guys could write a 10,000-word thesis on how and why SC2 is really poorly designed for competitive play. For weeks, maybe even months after the game came out, you couldn't even discuss it on TL. I saw them deleting posts and temp banning anyone who criticized SC2 in any way, and it was happening left and right. I don't think we'll really see much open criticism of the game from the people who know it best until the money dries up, and by then maybe we still won't just because nobody cares anymore.
I agree with what you say about not criticizing SC2 too much. day9 gives insight on the game a lot on SotG, but at times, you can tell that what he says is pretty tamed compared to someone like IdrA.
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On December 05 2011 05:58 ch72105 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 04:36 aTnClouD wrote:
Day9 gets an insane amount of money because he got famous with his dailies and other activities. If anything I noticed that the more time passed the more he catered to mainstream public and less to a strict elitist rts group of people. I don't know Day9 well enough to say what he really thinks (and even if I did I wouldn't out of respect for him) but I know for sure many progamers and casters are just not speaking honestly their mind when they talk about the game in public. This is very true. I don't think people understand the level of contempt ex-BW players have for SC2, and that includes pretty much all of the most successful progamers and casters. People keep their mouths shut because they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them, and SC2 is feeding them right now. Idra coming out and venting to the community about how laughable the game is for high level esports competition is only going to hurt him, for Day9 it'd damn near end his career and sever relationships he has with Blizzard. I think if Day9 started giving his 100% honest opinions of SC2 tomorrow, it might cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars in lifetime earnings. Any caster, speaking honestly about SC2 would simply end their career. You get glimpses of it occasionally, like Idra venting on his stream after losing to a dice throw, or inControl in this interview, but even in those examples these guys are really holding back. All these guys could write a 10,000-word thesis on how and why SC2 is really poorly designed for competitive play. For weeks, maybe even months after the game came out, you couldn't even discuss it on TL. I saw them deleting posts and temp banning anyone who criticized SC2 in any way, and it was happening left and right. I don't think we'll really see much open criticism of the game from the people who know it best until the money dries up, and by then maybe we still won't just because nobody cares anymore.
it really is adorable how you extrapolate the frustration of a few well-known figures to the entire community with no reasoning whatsoever. the "hand that feeds them"? I don't think you understand that concept quite as well as you think you do, nor the consequences for people speaking their minds (is blizzard a dictatorship?). idra does it all the time free of any consequence, day9's career is separate from his opinions on the game and he's far too professional to bother bridging that gap for any reason. again, the logical following from not speaking -----> pent-up frustration is a joke, this post is a joke, and people like you trying desperately to put unspoken words in others' mouths for the sake of causing drama hurts e-sports far more than any perceived dislike of the game balance that C-class players like Cloud might have for a game that frustrates them because of their inability to succeed at it.
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Well Day9 is no joke, there was a time in Brood War when he was the best Zerg in North America and maybe the best player in North America period. He understands competitive RTS very, very deeply, and the criticisms people like me and Cloud and Midas and Idra etc have for SC2 are criticisms that are almost universally shared by everyone with a deep understanding of competitive RTS.
That's really my only basis for speculating that Day9 probably shares these frustrations (despite never showing it).
The SC2 community is great, and the events are a lot of fun mostly thanks to people like Day9, but the game of SC2 itself has a very low skill ceiling and a lot of coins get flipped. The actual gameplay is far less compelling than what we used to have in BW, both as a player and as a spectator.
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On December 05 2011 05:58 ch72105 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 04:36 aTnClouD wrote:
Day9 gets an insane amount of money because he got famous with his dailies and other activities. If anything I noticed that the more time passed the more he catered to mainstream public and less to a strict elitist rts group of people. I don't know Day9 well enough to say what he really thinks (and even if I did I wouldn't out of respect for him) but I know for sure many progamers and casters are just not speaking honestly their mind when they talk about the game in public. This is very true. I don't think people understand the level of contempt ex-BW players have for SC2, and that includes pretty much all of the most successful progamers and casters. People keep their mouths shut because they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them, and SC2 is feeding them right now. Idra coming out and venting to the community about how laughable the game is for high level esports competition is only going to hurt him, for Day9 it'd damn near end his career and sever relationships he has with Blizzard. I think if Day9 started giving his 100% honest opinions of SC2 tomorrow, it might cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars in lifetime earnings. Any caster, speaking honestly about SC2 would simply end their career. You get glimpses of it occasionally, like Idra venting on his stream after losing to a dice throw, or inControl in this interview, but even in those examples these guys are really holding back. All these guys could write a 10,000-word thesis on how and why SC2 is really poorly designed for competitive play. For weeks, maybe even months after the game came out, you couldn't even discuss it on TL. I saw them deleting posts and temp banning anyone who criticized SC2 in any way, and it was happening left and right. I don't think we'll really see much open criticism of the game from the people who know it best until the money dries up, and by then maybe we still won't just because nobody cares anymore.
Lol incontrol was parodying idrA bitching about the game. I don't think he actually has a serious problem with the game.
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On December 05 2011 07:17 ch72105 wrote:
Well Day9 is no joke, there was a time in Brood War when he was the best Zerg in North America and maybe the best player in North America period. He understands competitive RTS very, very deeply, and the criticisms people like me and Cloud and Midas and Idra etc have for SC2 are criticisms that are almost universally shared by everyone with a deep understanding of competitive RTS.
That's really my only basis for speculating that Day9 probably shares these frustrations (despite never showing it).
The SC2 community is great, and the events are a lot of fun mostly thanks to people like Day9, but the game of SC2 itself has a very low skill ceiling and a lot of coins get flipped. The actual gameplay is far less compelling than what we used to have in BW, both as a player and as a spectator.
you're kidding me, right? "you can't argue with me, because if you don't share our opinion you aren't in on the pro RTS scene, and you wouldn't want that label!" also, why are you equating yourself with professional players, random TL poster?
you don't get to make blanket statements like the bolded without offering something of worth to support that proposition. as you've offered nothing but rabid, rose-colored glasses style fanboism, I guess we'll just have to let the professionals figure out where they stand for themselves without ridiculous pseudo-arguments like these.
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White-ra hit the nail on the head. Protoss units are going ot be even more expensive and gas heavy than before.
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The problem with the term "coin flippy" is that it implied there is no skill involved. I flip a coin, head i win, tails i lose. no skill, just luck.
The implication that skill isn't a factor is BS. If you ignore the cheesy openings, any game that lasts longer than 10 minutes is less and less of a "coin flip" and more and more about the skill of the players.
Yes, some cheesy "coin flip" openings can get you wins, though sometimes they don't even work (proxy 2 gate in your main huk? pffft, no worries, i got probes man!) but not longterm success.
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Hahaha white-ra gets to see some new special tactics
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I think they should cut macro mechanics and go from there
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On December 05 2011 07:35 TheExile19 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 07:17 ch72105 wrote:
Well Day9 is no joke, there was a time in Brood War when he was the best Zerg in North America and maybe the best player in North America period. He understands competitive RTS very, very deeply, and the criticisms people like me and Cloud and Midas and Idra etc have for SC2 are criticisms that are almost universally shared by everyone with a deep understanding of competitive RTS.
That's really my only basis for speculating that Day9 probably shares these frustrations (despite never showing it).
The SC2 community is great, and the events are a lot of fun mostly thanks to people like Day9, but the game of SC2 itself has a very low skill ceiling and a lot of coins get flipped. The actual gameplay is far less compelling than what we used to have in BW, both as a player and as a spectator. you're kidding me, right? "you can't argue with me, because if you don't share our opinion you aren't in on the pro RTS scene, and you wouldn't want that label!" also, why are you equating yourself with professional players, random TL poster? you don't get to make blanket statements like the bolded without offering something of worth to support that proposition. as you've offered nothing but rabid, rose-colored glasses style fanboism, I guess we'll just have to let the professionals figure out where they stand for themselves without ridiculous pseudo-arguments like these.
Theexile, I don't mean to sound rude, but ch72105 is no random TL poster. He was in clan x17, a PROFESSIONAL useast clan in BW. He knows what he is talking about. I mean he''s probably even played with lzgamer before.
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man gotta agree with some of what cloud said
first of all sc2 is more battle based and its extremely hard to make a comeback due to broodwar due to map size and stuff
also a lot of ppl can win just by gambling with random strategy or hard counters = ez win.
also in broodwar, all race are rly balanced through out early, mid and late game.
however in sc2, late game protoss is almost unbeatable since they can reinforce instantly at battle location with warp gate unlike other race which has to walk across. chrono boost also faciliates reinforcement of high tech units which takes a long time to build
also warp prism basiclly bypass ur defence as i have lost 3 games in which i had bunker at front and he just warp in sentry and zealots in my base and ff the ramp and stuff ><
PS: i am top 15 master terran
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On December 05 2011 07:49 Terrifyer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 07:35 TheExile19 wrote:On December 05 2011 07:17 ch72105 wrote:
Well Day9 is no joke, there was a time in Brood War when he was the best Zerg in North America and maybe the best player in North America period. He understands competitive RTS very, very deeply, and the criticisms people like me and Cloud and Midas and Idra etc have for SC2 are criticisms that are almost universally shared by everyone with a deep understanding of competitive RTS.
That's really my only basis for speculating that Day9 probably shares these frustrations (despite never showing it).
The SC2 community is great, and the events are a lot of fun mostly thanks to people like Day9, but the game of SC2 itself has a very low skill ceiling and a lot of coins get flipped. The actual gameplay is far less compelling than what we used to have in BW, both as a player and as a spectator. you're kidding me, right? "you can't argue with me, because if you don't share our opinion you aren't in on the pro RTS scene, and you wouldn't want that label!" also, why are you equating yourself with professional players, random TL poster? you don't get to make blanket statements like the bolded without offering something of worth to support that proposition. as you've offered nothing but rabid, rose-colored glasses style fanboism, I guess we'll just have to let the professionals figure out where they stand for themselves without ridiculous pseudo-arguments like these. Theexile, I don't mean to sound rude, but ch72105 is no random TL poster. He was in clan x17, a PROFESSIONAL useast clan in BW. He knows what he is talking about. I mean he''s probably even played with lzgamer before.
:/ my fault for BM'ing him then. I still don't really agree with the lack of showing his work, but the lack of post count threw me off. you can also infer I wasn't really into BW.
edit: terrifyer a masterful troll, i am impressed
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On December 05 2011 07:17 ch72105 wrote:
Well Day9 is no joke, there was a time in Brood War when he was the best Zerg in North America and maybe the best player in North America period. He understands competitive RTS very, very deeply, and the criticisms people like me and Cloud and Midas and Idra etc have for SC2 are criticisms that are almost universally shared by everyone with a deep understanding of competitive RTS.
That's really my only basis for speculating that Day9 probably shares these frustrations (despite never showing it).
The SC2 community is great, and the events are a lot of fun mostly thanks to people like Day9, but the game of SC2 itself has a very low skill ceiling and a lot of coins get flipped. The actual gameplay is far less compelling than what we used to have in BW, both as a player and as a spectator.
Lol, you need to read what Nazgul said about Day 9, plz stop thinking he's some kind of hidden god.
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Day9 probably does believe what he says about SC2 - that the bad/stupid parts are an effect of the game not being figured out enough and/or players not being good enough; and that complaining about balance is ultimately futile, as trying to improve or figure out new stuff will always yield more benefits. I would be really surprised if he hides his true opinion of the game, even if doing so is clearly beneficial to him. On the other hand, he is very capable of producing false hype, as his Skyrim livestream showed, so I guess it's possible.
As for his understanding of the game, he obviously has a good handle on RTS gameplay theory in general - this is what his dailies are all about, and it's why so many of his fans value his insight. However, at least judging from his casts, he doesn't understand SC2 specifically all that well, from the perspective of a mid Masters player who only keeps up with the big tournaments. The point at which I began to notice this was during an MLG, when he was casting a game between Sjow and Bomber on Testbug, and kept saying how Banshees can shoot at the natural from above the cliff without being seen. This is obviously false, as anyone who plays SC2 semi-regularly should know - air units become visible when they attack, no matter their position. Funnily enough, Day9 persisted in his opinion, and when the players refused to do what he advised, he essentially labelled them ignorant, arrogantly declaring "you gotta know how Starcraft 2 works!". Gotta know, indeed.
Similarly, in that debate with Idra on SotG, he just kept repeating the same generalities, without addressing Idra's point (which was very specific) at all. Idra was perfectly correct in his assertion, that if there is no safe build capable of dealing with everything, and no means to scout at critical timings, then the game becomes a coinflip. And indeed, I firmly believe it is a coinflip in some situations, and can direct anyone interested to a game where Nestea lost after not being able to scout and blindly choosing the wrong response to an all-in. But Day9 would never accept such a thing, he'd claim there could possibly be a way without specifying what it is.
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On December 05 2011 00:19 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 23:53 AutomatonOmega wrote:
I think we can all look to Idra's blog post if we want to get a sense of how Cloud's comment stacks up in comparison with his relative level of skill at the game. Granted, that was written back when they were BW players, but it makes for an interesting read anyways, and it's also notably funny that it's his ONLY blog entry in the whole time he's been here, and he calls Cloud out by name in the first paragraph. That blog was a troll written by Incontrol to make fun of the fact USA got destroyed in USA vs EU before Blizzcon and Idra got mad as fuck shaking with anger while losing. And it was actually Incontrol's finest creation on TL I would say.
Oh wow, I wasn't aware of that, haha. Thx for the heads up cloud lol.
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WoL keeps getting better each day. If you look at players like Leenock, MVP and HerO then you know how good WoL could become.
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On December 05 2011 09:59 Koshi wrote:
WoL keeps getting better each day. If you look at players like Leenock, MVP and HerO then you know how good WoL could become.
And all good that was created in WoL will be partially destroyed with HotS, and after 2 years when HotS finally becomes stable then LotV destroys it all over again.
And who knows if we wont see Starcraft 3 few years later....
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On December 05 2011 08:31 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 07:17 ch72105 wrote:
Well Day9 is no joke, there was a time in Brood War when he was the best Zerg in North America and maybe the best player in North America period. He understands competitive RTS very, very deeply, and the criticisms people like me and Cloud and Midas and Idra etc have for SC2 are criticisms that are almost universally shared by everyone with a deep understanding of competitive RTS.
That's really my only basis for speculating that Day9 probably shares these frustrations (despite never showing it).
The SC2 community is great, and the events are a lot of fun mostly thanks to people like Day9, but the game of SC2 itself has a very low skill ceiling and a lot of coins get flipped. The actual gameplay is far less compelling than what we used to have in BW, both as a player and as a spectator. Lol, you need to read what Nazgul said about Day 9, plz stop thinking he's some kind of hidden god.
What did he say? Can you give me a link?
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On December 05 2011 10:28 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 09:59 Koshi wrote:
WoL keeps getting better each day. If you look at players like Leenock, MVP and HerO then you know how good WoL could become. And all good that was created in WoL will be partially destroyed with HotS, and after 2 years when HotS finally becomes stable then LotV destroys it all over again. And who knows if we wont see Starcraft 3 few years later....
Hopefully, if Blizzard does it right, HOTS will add more good to WOL in the long run.
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EPT
