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It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh.
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On December 05 2011 05:58 ch72105 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 04:36 aTnClouD wrote:
Day9 gets an insane amount of money because he got famous with his dailies and other activities. If anything I noticed that the more time passed the more he catered to mainstream public and less to a strict elitist rts group of people. I don't know Day9 well enough to say what he really thinks (and even if I did I wouldn't out of respect for him) but I know for sure many progamers and casters are just not speaking honestly their mind when they talk about the game in public. This is very true. I don't think people understand the level of contempt ex-BW players have for SC2, and that includes pretty much all of the most successful progamers and casters. People keep their mouths shut because they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them, and SC2 is feeding them right now. Idra coming out and venting to the community about how laughable the game is for high level esports competition is only going to hurt him, for Day9 it'd damn near end his career and sever relationships he has with Blizzard. I think if Day9 started giving his 100% honest opinions of SC2 tomorrow, it might cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars in lifetime earnings. Any caster, speaking honestly about SC2 would simply end their career. You get glimpses of it occasionally, like Idra venting on his stream after losing to a dice throw, or inControl in this interview, but even in those examples these guys are really holding back. All these guys could write a 10,000-word thesis on how and why SC2 is really poorly designed for competitive play. For weeks, maybe even months after the game came out, you couldn't even discuss it on TL. I saw them deleting posts and temp banning anyone who criticized SC2 in any way, and it was happening left and right. I don't think we'll really see much open criticism of the game from the people who know it best until the money dries up, and by then maybe we still won't just because nobody cares anymore.
I am unimpressed with this argument. When SC2 came out people compared it to BW, which is fine. But you cannot expect any game to have the same level of depth as one that has been around for over a decade. If Chess 2, came out tomorrow, it would be nothing compared to Chess classic when it came to depth and history. For the first year or two scrubby players are going to win against players with coin flip builds. It is bound to happen and a natural progression of any game. It is easier to abuse an aspect than it is to figure out a way to deal with it.
I did not read the threads about how much SC 2 sucks on TL. But judging by the crap that gets closed on a daily basis, I am sure it had less to do with the topic and more to do with the content and thought put into the post. I am sure Day9 and everyone else is playing SC 2 because they love it. Day9 did the daily for free for quite a long time while he was in school, spending an hour each night trying to speed everyone along on the path to being better at Starcraft 2. I don't think Incontrol or Artosis or Idra would like to go back to BW. They want to figure this game out and they want to be on the ones to do it.
But maybe your right. Maybe all the ex brood war pros hate SC2 with the fire of a nova. Maybe they feel bad for their fans for cheering for such a horrible game and wish that SC2 was really BW with better graphics. Maybe Day9 cries into his hands every night because what his life has become. Maybe it's all a lie and TL is just riding the wave because Blizzard told them to.
But I doubt it. Maybe there are a bunch of people looking back on the days of BW, remembering how amazing the game was and glossing over the parts where they lost to scubby players doing an abusive build.
Edited for typos.
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On December 05 2011 05:58 ch72105 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 04:36 aTnClouD wrote:
Day9 gets an insane amount of money because he got famous with his dailies and other activities. If anything I noticed that the more time passed the more he catered to mainstream public and less to a strict elitist rts group of people. I don't know Day9 well enough to say what he really thinks (and even if I did I wouldn't out of respect for him) but I know for sure many progamers and casters are just not speaking honestly their mind when they talk about the game in public. This is very true. I don't think people understand the level of contempt ex-BW players have for SC2, and that includes pretty much all of the most successful progamers and casters.
Wow Mr 3-posts-on-tl way to speak for that many people with zero data to support it. The debate is over guys, this guy speaks for all of the most successful progamers, the casters and a good chunk of the entire player community.
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On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh.
During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for).
You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up.
Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch.
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On December 04 2011 03:03 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:
Sc2 is already bad enough with all those aoe super powerful no brainer easy to use units (ghost, templar, colo, infestor). Let's add more spellcasting bs on the field so the game gets... worse. This is my opinion and I'm not being a crybaby. If you don't like it don't assume I'm just whining randomly. I'm not blaming my "lack of results" (?!?results that anyway most people who play sc2 all day would love to have) on a bad game since I know it was obviously due to the fact I never liked SC2 for the reasons I stated before so I was never able to enjoy and practice as much as many other tournament winning players. Even if the game is super gamblish and bad players can win against good ones it doesn't mean the very best players in the world are not able to put the results they deserve (and they can still lose to incomparably worse players - watch mlg orlando). Thing is they are gonna add stuff in hots that will probably be sick hard to balance with everything else already and I really wonder if there is any way for units like the oracle or the shredder to not fuck up totally the game. Don't get me wrong, I obviously hope I am just pessimistic and it won't be like this, still it looks pretty grim to me.
edit: and dont call me mid tier foreign player, cause i'm not. thanks. I've never played bw. I'm master sc2 player, and recently played sc2 bw maps and watched some pro league. Sc bw is so freaking superior to sc2, it's not even funny. I repeat: i'm not a bw fanboy, in fact i'm more a sc2 fanboy, but even the "sc2 bw" maps have so much better micro mechanics than sc2. I agree with cloud. After watching in bw maps, how better sc2 could have been. Sc2 is an amazing game, but the mechanics and balance design is totally flawed.
That's what I've been talking about, you guys. Why aren't we embracing the custom "sc2 bw" map?
There is just so much talk about how BW is superior and SC2 inferior. All it takes is one person to ignite this idea of the SC2 BW custom map, embrace, spread it like wildfire, and soon the tourneys will follow the custom map, instead of the flawed default SC2.
It is completely the most perfect compromise and I am really disappointed to see so few people here acknowledge that simple, basic fact. BW in an SC2 engine. Can we please just spread the word and make it happen?
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On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch.
and we saw a 2 port banshee from Jjakji in the most recent GSL finals on the SAME map and leenock owned it. What? you just expecting people wouldn't adapt and learn how to better counter things? well it's clear players are getting better and better, just look at the quality of games from Nov GSL 2010 and Nov GSL 2011. Even MLG and DH then and now is a stark contrast.
and how would the transition from SC1 -> BW be any different from WoL -> HotS? Maybe you are forgetting that BW brought a ton of imbalances as well and was never truly stable until quite some time. If stability is something you want right now, then you're missing the point. The instability is what creates legends, would a player like Bisu have been so revolutionary if the game was already stabilized in PvZ? fuck no. SC2 is going to go through the same process and if we have to wait 10 years for legacy of the void to finally be stabilized then the game will be better for it.
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On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. Throw me a link, I'd love to see it. It took a longgg while in BW to figure out what builds were capable of what and what the best responses were. It's entirely possible that 4 months from now you'd have to make a fatal flaw to die to a tech cheese like that.
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On December 05 2011 12:47 emc wrote:
and we saw a 2 port banshee from Jjakji in the most recent GSL finals on the SAME map and leenock owned it. What? you just expecting people wouldn't adapt and learn how to better counter things? well it's clear players are getting better and better, just look at the quality of games from Nov GSL 2010 and Nov GSL 2011. Even MLG and DH then and now is a stark contrast.
and how would the transition from SC1 -> BW be any different from WoL -> HotS? Maybe you are forgetting that BW brought a ton of imbalances as well and was never truly stable until quite some time. If stability is something you want right now, then you're missing the point. The instability is what creates legends, would a player like Bisu have been so revolutionary if the game was already stabilized in PvZ? fuck no. SC2 is going to go through the same process and if we have to wait 10 years for legacy of the void to finally be stabilized then the game will be better for it. . Pretty solidly along the lines of how I feel
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On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh.
The game having wonky units/abilities +easier noob friendly mechanics and a lack of units with any depth to them (come you can't tell me the roach, marauder and the collosus have much depth to them at all.....) means that any scrub that plays 3-5 hours a day in master league is not far off as for being competitive with a pro player that plays 8-15 hours a day in a team house living and breathing for the game due to random allins that are next to impossible to scout even if the opponent messes up a lot of things and you play almost perfectly.
in any other competitive sport let's just use basketball as an example no random kid who shoots hoops in his back year a little bit could hop on the court and compete in the NBA. but that is possible with sc2 where it wasn't with bw which is what makes the idea of it being an esport not very legit.
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On December 05 2011 12:47 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. and we saw a 2 port banshee from Jjakji in the most recent GSL finals on the SAME map and leenock owned it. What? you just expecting people wouldn't adapt and learn how to better counter things? well it's clear players are getting better and better, just look at the quality of games from Nov GSL 2010 and Nov GSL 2011. Even MLG and DH then and now is a stark contrast. and how would the transition from SC1 -> BW be any different from WoL -> HotS? Maybe you are forgetting that BW brought a ton of imbalances as well and was never truly stable until quite some time. If stability is something you want right now, then you're missing the point. The instability is what creates legends, would a player like Bisu have been so revolutionary if the game was already stabilized in PvZ? fuck no. SC2 is going to go through the same process and if we have to wait 10 years for legacy of the void to finally be stabilized then the game will be better for it.
I say good job to Leenock for guessing correctly (or maybe Jjakji let him scout it, haven't seen that game). How exactly does this counter my argument?
Also, what transition from SC1 to BW? There was no professional vanilla SC1 play. There was no transition. It took a few years from BW's release before it even took off in Korea. I'm not sure if you even know what you're talking about, honestly. How can you even consider imbalances that BW introduced, when the only thing one needed to do to win in vanilla SC1 was making Mutalisks?
And yes, the reason Bisu was so revolutionary was because the game was stable, or at least that's what everyone thought. Do you really want a repeat of the first 6 months of SC2, with games rarely going past 1 base vs 1 base, and more 5 rax reaper or proxy Void Rays randomly killing better players? If so, congratulations, you're Dustin Browder's target audience.
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On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:
Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch.
When referring to Blizzard phrases like "imbalanced crap the threw into" , "basic design problems"
seem to indicate you believe Blizzard is incompetent. This is false. Blizzard is a solid company with a proven track record for creating quality entertainment software. Your post is far off base.
Name me 1 RTS game made since 1995 with diverse factions taht was balanced at teh top level at launch.
By definition every RTS game made has been imbalanced upon release. No one has been able to do this with diverse factions.
If both factions are identical balancing is easy.
So when a new RTS is released by any company or modified by teh addition of 1 or more new units per faction then expect an unstable period where the game must be balanced while players skill with the new units are improving.
There is a MOD kit and if you believe this balancing and design is a trivial problem then solve it with your own game design. Blizzard will hire you on the spot
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On December 05 2011 12:44 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 03:03 Belha wrote:On December 03 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:
Sc2 is already bad enough with all those aoe super powerful no brainer easy to use units (ghost, templar, colo, infestor). Let's add more spellcasting bs on the field so the game gets... worse. This is my opinion and I'm not being a crybaby. If you don't like it don't assume I'm just whining randomly. I'm not blaming my "lack of results" (?!?results that anyway most people who play sc2 all day would love to have) on a bad game since I know it was obviously due to the fact I never liked SC2 for the reasons I stated before so I was never able to enjoy and practice as much as many other tournament winning players. Even if the game is super gamblish and bad players can win against good ones it doesn't mean the very best players in the world are not able to put the results they deserve (and they can still lose to incomparably worse players - watch mlg orlando). Thing is they are gonna add stuff in hots that will probably be sick hard to balance with everything else already and I really wonder if there is any way for units like the oracle or the shredder to not fuck up totally the game. Don't get me wrong, I obviously hope I am just pessimistic and it won't be like this, still it looks pretty grim to me.
edit: and dont call me mid tier foreign player, cause i'm not. thanks. I've never played bw. I'm master sc2 player, and recently played sc2 bw maps and watched some pro league. Sc bw is so freaking superior to sc2, it's not even funny. I repeat: i'm not a bw fanboy, in fact i'm more a sc2 fanboy, but even the "sc2 bw" maps have so much better micro mechanics than sc2. I agree with cloud. After watching in bw maps, how better sc2 could have been. Sc2 is an amazing game, but the mechanics and balance design is totally flawed. That's what I've been talking about, you guys. Why aren't we embracing the custom "sc2 bw" map? There is just so much talk about how BW is superior and SC2 inferior. All it takes is one person to ignite this idea of the SC2 BW custom map, embrace, spread it like wildfire, and soon the tourneys will follow the custom map, instead of the flawed default SC2. It is completely the most perfect compromise and I am really disappointed to see so few people here acknowledge that simple, basic fact. BW in an SC2 engine. Can we please just spread the word and make it happen?
It's actually the worst possible compromise you could think of. You'd just alienate casuals and the whole ladder. You might as well just play bw. And sc2bw plays a lot differently than bw due to the AI and other issues.
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On December 05 2011 12:55 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. The game having wonky units/abilities +easier noob friendly mechanics and a lack of units with any depth to them (come you can't tell me the roach, marauder and the collosus have much depth to them at all.....) means that any scrub that plays 3-5 hours a day in master league is not far off as for being competitive with a pro player that plays 8-15 hours a day in a team house living and breathing for the game due to random allins that are next to impossible to scout even if the opponent messes up a lot of things and you play almost perfectly. in any other competitive sport let's just use basketball as an example no random kid who shoots hoops in his back year a little bit could hop on the court and compete in the NBA. but that is possible with sc2 where it wasn't with bw which is what makes the idea of it being an esport not very legit.
Please name 3 of these scrubs that "plays 3-5 hours a day in master league" that can consistently compete with "a pro player that plays 8-15 hours a day in a team house living and breathing for the game". There's a difference between occasionally taking a game off a player and actually being able to compete. This difference is the reason why we see the same names over and over again winning and making it to the brackets in tournaments even when they are open.
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On December 05 2011 12:58 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:47 emc wrote:On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. and we saw a 2 port banshee from Jjakji in the most recent GSL finals on the SAME map and leenock owned it. What? you just expecting people wouldn't adapt and learn how to better counter things? well it's clear players are getting better and better, just look at the quality of games from Nov GSL 2010 and Nov GSL 2011. Even MLG and DH then and now is a stark contrast. and how would the transition from SC1 -> BW be any different from WoL -> HotS? Maybe you are forgetting that BW brought a ton of imbalances as well and was never truly stable until quite some time. If stability is something you want right now, then you're missing the point. The instability is what creates legends, would a player like Bisu have been so revolutionary if the game was already stabilized in PvZ? fuck no. SC2 is going to go through the same process and if we have to wait 10 years for legacy of the void to finally be stabilized then the game will be better for it. I say good job to Leenock for guessing correctly (or maybe Jjakji let him scout it, haven't seen that game). How exactly does this counter my argument? Also, what transition from SC1 to BW? There was no professional vanilla SC1 play. There was no transition. It took a few years from BW's release before it even took off in Korea. I'm not sure if you even know what you're talking about, honestly. How can you even consider imbalances that BW introduced, when the only thing one needed to do to win in vanilla SC1 was making Mutalisks? And yes, the reason Bisu was so revolutionary was because the game was stable, or at least that's what everyone thought. Do you really want a repeat of the first 6 months of SC2, with games rarely going past 1 base vs 1 base, and more 5 rax reaper or proxy Void Rays randomly killing better players? If so, congratulations, you're Dustin Browder's target audience.
yeah, like players are just going to forget how to play SC2... You really think all of what's happened in SC2 this past year is going to get thrown out the window? I highly doubt 1 base play will be at all viable, even with new units and abilities, you don't just forget how to defend all-ins or play the game.
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On December 05 2011 12:55 Raiznhell wrote:
The game having wonky units/abilities +easier noob friendly mechanics and a lack of units with any depth to them (come you can't tell me the roach, marauder and the collosus have much depth to them at all.....) means that any scrub that plays 3-5 hours a day in master league is not far off as for being competitive with a pro player that plays 8-15 hours a day in a team house living and breathing for the game due to random allins that are next to impossible to scout even if the opponent messes up a lot of things and you play almost perfectly.
in any other competitive sport let's just use basketball as an example no random kid who shoots hoops in his back year a little bit could hop on the court and compete in the NBA. but that is possible with sc2 where it wasn't with bw which is what makes the idea of it being an esport not very legit.
This is complete hyperbole
And even if it were true (it isn't), none of it has anything to do with why, with all their supposed mechanical prowess from BW, ex-BW pros playing SC2 apparently can't manage 4 groups of units in different parts of the map at once despite the overall easier macro
Why is that
I mean, if any decent BW player can handle macroing off of 8 hatches in 3 different parts of the map while controlling large groups of zerglings in different parts of the map 12 at a time, why can decent SC2 players not even handle a large battle or two and a drop while macroing without screwing something up horribly
Or effectively split their units before/during engagements
Or incorporate infestors into their armies without throwing them away uselessly
Or, on a related note, handle managing their large army on more than one hotkey
Anytime a player manages to pull off one of the above things, they end up dominating the other player. But I see a lot of "pros" failing to successfully manage more difficult unit management/control. It has nothing to do with the skill ceiling and everything to do with the current level of play, which is slowly progressing as WoL gets older and older.
But I'm sure SC2 is totally "too easy" and players are totally playing "perfectly" and losing to bad strategies.
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On December 05 2011 13:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:
Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. When referring to Blizzard phrases like "imbalanced crap the threw into" , "basic design problems" seem to indicate you believe Blizzard is incompetent. This is false. Blizzard is a solid company with a proven track record for creating quality entertainment software. Your post is far off base. Name me 1 RTS game made since 1995 with diverse factions taht was balanced at teh top level at launch. By definition every RTS game made has been imbalanced upon release. No one has been able to do this with diverse factions. If both factions are identical balancing is easy. There is a MOD kit and if you believe this balancing and design is a trivial problem then solve it with your own game design. Blizzard will hire you on the spot
You know, the sad thing is that you're almost right. Blizzard was a pretty darned amazing videogame developer, up until about 2003, when they released TFT. But you know what happened then? They released WoW, and it became an instant hit. Until SC2 in 2010, they released nothing but WoW expansions. The simple truth, is that it's not the old Blizzard anymore. The lead designer for SC2, Dustin Browder, worked on C&C games before, and joined Blizzard in 2007 if I remember correctly.
Besides, they couldn't even balance WC3, which they made in their "good days" either, so there's really not much hope. And the information they've released so far on HotS and Diablo 3 really doesn't bode well. They're slowly removing themselves from the pedestal their old games put them on, as far as I'm concerned.
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Lol @ Cloud going all Phil Hellmuth on SC2. I'd say try and keep it just a tad humble about your own skills until you start claiming you'd win GSL championships if not for the "randomness" of SC2.
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On December 04 2011 05:09 mbr2321 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 05:04 aTnClouD wrote:On December 04 2011 05:00 Darksteel wrote:On December 04 2011 04:39 aTnClouD wrote:On December 04 2011 04:36 MichaelJLowell wrote:
What is your purpose in playing a video game that you clearly do not like? I like competing, I like traveling, I like knowing new people and I like the idea of making money out of it. I'm not the only one. So you like the positive sides of easy progamer life, but are unhappy about the game itself. You complain about the pathfinding and too powerfull aoe spells when almost no one splits their units effectively in combat. Only pro I've seen do it semi-regular is Puma when pre-emptively dodging storms and setting up flanks. You complain about spellcasters, when efficient spellcaster usage brings more ways to shine to the game. HotS doesn't bring any more AoE spells to the game, but it brings more ways to play better. So all I have to say is that maybe you should appreciate your welfare and think positive about the game that enables you to compete, travel, get to know new people and make money. What I think of the game and what I make out of it are two things that have no direct relation. I can think what I want of SC2 and still practice a lot, get better and have better results. I will practice like crazy in HotS unlike I did for WoL and I am sure I will have good results, but from what I've seen so far of that expansion I won't like it and I just said so. You say I should be grateful to the game itself (?!?) because it allows me to do what I like. This makes no sense. At this point I just don't understand. Why would you be a professional gamer if you don't enjoy the game? I understand that the best in the world can make a LOT of money, but there can only be a handful of people who win the GSL, and even then, there are still a lot easier ways to make more money.
Because it's different when you do something for money, versus doing it as a hobby. Sorry but it really isn't our place to tell someone else how to live their life.
The moment your very livelihood depends upon you being able to perform, is the moment that it is no longer "fun". It is stressful, time consuming, and all the negatives that go with just about anything you choose do do for a living.
We cannot fathom how it feels to be under the gun to do or die in a videogame. If you don't win, you don't eat. And then suddenly you are hit by an MC-level 4 gate, and you fail to hold.
And you don't have to be "best in the world" to make a living from this game. You can find your niche doing SC2-related things.
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On December 05 2011 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:55 Raiznhell wrote:
The game having wonky units/abilities +easier noob friendly mechanics and a lack of units with any depth to them (come you can't tell me the roach, marauder and the collosus have much depth to them at all.....) means that any scrub that plays 3-5 hours a day in master league is not far off as for being competitive with a pro player that plays 8-15 hours a day in a team house living and breathing for the game due to random allins that are next to impossible to scout even if the opponent messes up a lot of things and you play almost perfectly.
in any other competitive sport let's just use basketball as an example no random kid who shoots hoops in his back year a little bit could hop on the court and compete in the NBA. but that is possible with sc2 where it wasn't with bw which is what makes the idea of it being an esport not very legit.
This is complete hyperbole And even if it were true (it isn't), none of it has anything to do with why, with all their supposed mechanical prowess from BW, ex-BW pros playing SC2 apparently can't manage 4 groups of units in different parts of the map at once despite the overall easier macro Why is that I mean, if any decent BW player can handle macroing off of 8 hatches in 3 different parts of the map while controlling large groups of zerglings in different parts of the map 12 at a time, why can decent SC2 players not even handle a large battle or two and a drop while macroing without screwing something up horribly Or effectively split their units before/during engagements Or incorporate infestors into their armies without throwing them away uselessly Or, on a related note, handle managing their large army on more than one hotkey Anytime a player manages to pull off one of the above things, they end up dominating the other player. But I see a lot of "pros" failing to successfully manage more difficult unit management/control. It has nothing to do with the skill ceiling and everything to do with the current level of play, which is slowly progressing as WoL gets older and older. But I'm sure SC2 is totally "too easy" and players are totally playing "perfectly" and losing to bad strategies.
To completely say his argument is hyperbole in nature is totally flush his argument in to the toilet , I constantly refer to my argument that a amateur golfer compared to a pro golfer will never win a pro golfer in his game because , he is superiorly train to do the things to his do for a living . Same can be said for the mechanical demand needed to play broodwar at a higher level , he is saying that the skill ceiling for bw is much more higher than it is for sc2 , no where can a scrub beat Jaedong or flash in a best of 1000 of a game no matter how good he is .
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On December 05 2011 13:45 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:On December 05 2011 12:55 Raiznhell wrote:
The game having wonky units/abilities +easier noob friendly mechanics and a lack of units with any depth to them (come you can't tell me the roach, marauder and the collosus have much depth to them at all.....) means that any scrub that plays 3-5 hours a day in master league is not far off as for being competitive with a pro player that plays 8-15 hours a day in a team house living and breathing for the game due to random allins that are next to impossible to scout even if the opponent messes up a lot of things and you play almost perfectly.
in any other competitive sport let's just use basketball as an example no random kid who shoots hoops in his back year a little bit could hop on the court and compete in the NBA. but that is possible with sc2 where it wasn't with bw which is what makes the idea of it being an esport not very legit.
This is complete hyperbole And even if it were true (it isn't), none of it has anything to do with why, with all their supposed mechanical prowess from BW, ex-BW pros playing SC2 apparently can't manage 4 groups of units in different parts of the map at once despite the overall easier macro Why is that I mean, if any decent BW player can handle macroing off of 8 hatches in 3 different parts of the map while controlling large groups of zerglings in different parts of the map 12 at a time, why can decent SC2 players not even handle a large battle or two and a drop while macroing without screwing something up horribly Or effectively split their units before/during engagements Or incorporate infestors into their armies without throwing them away uselessly Or, on a related note, handle managing their large army on more than one hotkey Anytime a player manages to pull off one of the above things, they end up dominating the other player. But I see a lot of "pros" failing to successfully manage more difficult unit management/control. It has nothing to do with the skill ceiling and everything to do with the current level of play, which is slowly progressing as WoL gets older and older. But I'm sure SC2 is totally "too easy" and players are totally playing "perfectly" and losing to bad strategies. To completely say his argument is hyperbole in nature is totally flush his argument in to the toilet , I constantly refer to my argument that a amateur golfer compared to a pro golfer will never win a pro golfer in his game because , he is superiorly train to do the things to his do for a living . Same can be said for the mechanical demand needed to play broodwar at a higher level , he is saying that the skill ceiling for bw is much more higher than it is for sc2 , no where can a scrub beat Jaedong or flash in a best of 1000 of a game no matter how good he is . Just like Ryan Fitzpatrick will never have a worse game than Tom Brady, right?
The mechanical demand needed to play SC:BW at a high level exists only because there are players SO GOOD that they have set the bar for play at that level. SC2's problem is that its pros have yet to set any sort of mechanical bar, because they can't consistently maintain their dominant mechanics.
The more mechanically sound player almost always wins in SC2, provided they make good decisions with the information at hand. SC2 pros are not at all consistent when it comes to their mechanics. They lose units, forget about units, have careless control, fail to control their third and fourth groups of units at the same time as their first and second, forget to build units, get supply blocked, fail to properly adjust their builds constantly. The issue isn't that there's an inherent low mechanical requirement to play SC2, it's that the current players are setting the bar too low by failing to be consistently awesome when it comes to mechanics.
edited to correct a few statements
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EPT
