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On December 05 2011 07:17 ch72105 wrote:
He understands competitive RTS very, very deeply, and the criticisms people like me and Cloud and Midas and Idra etc have for SC2 are criticisms that are almost universally shared by everyone with a deep understanding of competitive RTS.
People With A Deep Understanding of Competitive RTS:
Cloud
Midas
Idra
ch72105
etc.
Not exactly the list I would have put together...
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I think Blizzard needs to take this seriously. When so many pros are annoyed that the game is too coin-flippy you have to address it.
Pros from BW say winning a match in SC1 is like winning a BO3 in SC2. It's more legitimate with less random wins from lesser players.
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On December 05 2011 13:51 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 13:45 Sawamura wrote:On December 05 2011 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:On December 05 2011 12:55 Raiznhell wrote:
The game having wonky units/abilities +easier noob friendly mechanics and a lack of units with any depth to them (come you can't tell me the roach, marauder and the collosus have much depth to them at all.....) means that any scrub that plays 3-5 hours a day in master league is not far off as for being competitive with a pro player that plays 8-15 hours a day in a team house living and breathing for the game due to random allins that are next to impossible to scout even if the opponent messes up a lot of things and you play almost perfectly.
in any other competitive sport let's just use basketball as an example no random kid who shoots hoops in his back year a little bit could hop on the court and compete in the NBA. but that is possible with sc2 where it wasn't with bw which is what makes the idea of it being an esport not very legit.
This is complete hyperbole And even if it were true (it isn't), none of it has anything to do with why, with all their supposed mechanical prowess from BW, ex-BW pros playing SC2 apparently can't manage 4 groups of units in different parts of the map at once despite the overall easier macro Why is that I mean, if any decent BW player can handle macroing off of 8 hatches in 3 different parts of the map while controlling large groups of zerglings in different parts of the map 12 at a time, why can decent SC2 players not even handle a large battle or two and a drop while macroing without screwing something up horribly Or effectively split their units before/during engagements Or incorporate infestors into their armies without throwing them away uselessly Or, on a related note, handle managing their large army on more than one hotkey Anytime a player manages to pull off one of the above things, they end up dominating the other player. But I see a lot of "pros" failing to successfully manage more difficult unit management/control. It has nothing to do with the skill ceiling and everything to do with the current level of play, which is slowly progressing as WoL gets older and older. But I'm sure SC2 is totally "too easy" and players are totally playing "perfectly" and losing to bad strategies. To completely say his argument is hyperbole in nature is totally flush his argument in to the toilet , I constantly refer to my argument that a amateur golfer compared to a pro golfer will never win a pro golfer in his game because , he is superiorly train to do the things to his do for a living . Same can be said for the mechanical demand needed to play broodwar at a higher level , he is saying that the skill ceiling for bw is much more higher than it is for sc2 , no where can a scrub beat Jaedong or flash in a best of 1000 of a game no matter how good he is . Just like Ryan Fitzpatrick will never have a worse game than Tom Brady, right? The mechanical demand needed to play SC:BW at a high level exists only because there are players SO GOOD that they have set the bar for play at that level. SC2's problem is that its pros have yet to set any sort of mechanical bar, because they can't consistently maintain their dominant mechanics. The more mechanically sound player almost always wins in SC2, provided they make good decisions with the information at hand. SC2 pros are not at all consistent when it comes to their mechanics. They lose units, forget about units, have careless control, fail to control their third and fourth groups of units at the same time as their third, forget to build units, get supply blocked, fail to properly adjust their builds constantly. The issue isn't that there's an inherent low mechanical requirement to play SC2, it's that the current players are setting the bar too low by failing to be consistently awesome when it comes to mechanics.
Both are NFL players , sadly I don't watch american football , let's take jack nicklaus in his prime and pit you against him in a game of 18 holes , will you ever take a single game off him ? definitely not , the problem is like many have pointed and even you , sc2 is so volatile to the extend like you have mention simple mistakes will screw up your game , "forgetting to build units, get block,not splitting up your units , not getting that force field down and etc . Will kill you in the game and the same can be said for broodwar , screwing up your engagement because of bad tank position, leaving your high templar chilling in some mountain for recreation is a very smart thing to do .
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On December 05 2011 13:57 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 13:51 RampancyTW wrote:On December 05 2011 13:45 Sawamura wrote:On December 05 2011 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:On December 05 2011 12:55 Raiznhell wrote:
The game having wonky units/abilities +easier noob friendly mechanics and a lack of units with any depth to them (come you can't tell me the roach, marauder and the collosus have much depth to them at all.....) means that any scrub that plays 3-5 hours a day in master league is not far off as for being competitive with a pro player that plays 8-15 hours a day in a team house living and breathing for the game due to random allins that are next to impossible to scout even if the opponent messes up a lot of things and you play almost perfectly.
in any other competitive sport let's just use basketball as an example no random kid who shoots hoops in his back year a little bit could hop on the court and compete in the NBA. but that is possible with sc2 where it wasn't with bw which is what makes the idea of it being an esport not very legit.
This is complete hyperbole And even if it were true (it isn't), none of it has anything to do with why, with all their supposed mechanical prowess from BW, ex-BW pros playing SC2 apparently can't manage 4 groups of units in different parts of the map at once despite the overall easier macro Why is that I mean, if any decent BW player can handle macroing off of 8 hatches in 3 different parts of the map while controlling large groups of zerglings in different parts of the map 12 at a time, why can decent SC2 players not even handle a large battle or two and a drop while macroing without screwing something up horribly Or effectively split their units before/during engagements Or incorporate infestors into their armies without throwing them away uselessly Or, on a related note, handle managing their large army on more than one hotkey Anytime a player manages to pull off one of the above things, they end up dominating the other player. But I see a lot of "pros" failing to successfully manage more difficult unit management/control. It has nothing to do with the skill ceiling and everything to do with the current level of play, which is slowly progressing as WoL gets older and older. But I'm sure SC2 is totally "too easy" and players are totally playing "perfectly" and losing to bad strategies. To completely say his argument is hyperbole in nature is totally flush his argument in to the toilet , I constantly refer to my argument that a amateur golfer compared to a pro golfer will never win a pro golfer in his game because , he is superiorly train to do the things to his do for a living . Same can be said for the mechanical demand needed to play broodwar at a higher level , he is saying that the skill ceiling for bw is much more higher than it is for sc2 , no where can a scrub beat Jaedong or flash in a best of 1000 of a game no matter how good he is . Just like Ryan Fitzpatrick will never have a worse game than Tom Brady, right? The mechanical demand needed to play SC:BW at a high level exists only because there are players SO GOOD that they have set the bar for play at that level. SC2's problem is that its pros have yet to set any sort of mechanical bar, because they can't consistently maintain their dominant mechanics. The more mechanically sound player almost always wins in SC2, provided they make good decisions with the information at hand. SC2 pros are not at all consistent when it comes to their mechanics. They lose units, forget about units, have careless control, fail to control their third and fourth groups of units at the same time as their third, forget to build units, get supply blocked, fail to properly adjust their builds constantly. The issue isn't that there's an inherent low mechanical requirement to play SC2, it's that the current players are setting the bar too low by failing to be consistently awesome when it comes to mechanics. Both are NFL players , sadly I don't watch american football , let's take jack nicklaus in his prime and pit you against him in a game of 18 holes , will you ever take a single game off him ? definitely not , the problem is like many have pointed and even you , sc2 is so volatile to the extend like you have mention simple mistakes will screw up your game , "forgetting to build units, get block,not splitting up your units , not getting that force field down and etc . Will kill you in the game and the same can be said for broodwar , screwing up your engagement because of bad tank position, leaving your high templar chilling in some mountain for recreation is a very smart thing to do . My point is those are all things that are included in mechanical requirement... and our current pros haven't set the bar very high for that. The player who best manages everything on the field of play (you know... mechanical dominance) almost always wins, but that level of "best" is usually pretty low. As that bar rises, as it becomes more and more necessary to be able to properly handle simultaneously throwing a lot of shit at your appointment and handling the lot of shit thrown at you, the mechanical bar will rise to the point where it totally excludes amateur players as well.
So again, everything to do with the level of competition and not the inherent gameplay mechanical ceiling. The mechanical floor is a little higher, yes, but that really doesn't affect the ceiling.
Why are you behaving as if there isn't a difference in mechanical prowess between now and the beginning of BW comp?
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On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch.
It's all from Zerg's greediness. Drones, drones, expand, expand...
Build 2 spore crawlers and your problem solved.
Why should terran always be prepared to muta by placing turrets but zerg not?
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This reminds me of the conversation preceding the WoL beta.
Some of the problems people foresaw ended up being problems we've all had to live with.
Most of them didn't. By and large, the haters were wrong. I strongly suspect that will be every bit as much the case in hots.
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On December 05 2011 14:07 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. It's all from Zerg's greediness. Drones, drones, expand, expand... Build 2 spore crawlers and your problem solved. Why should terran always be prepared to muta by placing turrets but zerg not?
The problem is zerg cannot scout it
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On December 05 2011 13:17 Tenks wrote:
Lol @ Cloud going all Phil Hellmuth on SC2. I'd say try and keep it just a tad humble about your own skills until you start claiming you'd win GSL championships if not for the "randomness" of SC2.
i mean, we do have the occasional silver player who thinks if he would be masters if it wasn't for cheese, or something of the sorts
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On December 05 2011 14:30 Bd.Snake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 14:07 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. It's all from Zerg's greediness. Drones, drones, expand, expand... Build 2 spore crawlers and your problem solved. Why should terran always be prepared to muta by placing turrets but zerg not? The problem is zerg cannot scout it
Why not just predict? Why not put 2 spores?
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I don't know... I'm really excited for the expansion.. Blizzard seems to always be having most of their -uber-units come in during their expansions. Like broodwar, frozen throne, etc.
Sure it will be hard to balance, but if they time it right it shouldn't influence the pro-scene too much.
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On December 05 2011 14:31 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 14:30 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:07 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. It's all from Zerg's greediness. Drones, drones, expand, expand... Build 2 spore crawlers and your problem solved. Why should terran always be prepared to muta by placing turrets but zerg not? The problem is zerg cannot scout it Why not just predict? Why not put 2 spores?
Because that isn't good game design your just guessing
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On December 05 2011 14:33 Bd.Snake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 14:31 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:30 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:07 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. It's all from Zerg's greediness. Drones, drones, expand, expand... Build 2 spore crawlers and your problem solved. Why should terran always be prepared to muta by placing turrets but zerg not? The problem is zerg cannot scout it Why not just predict? Why not put 2 spores? Because that isn't good game design your just guessing I think the point would be that you should be prepared to thrown down spores if the scouting info you're able to attain leaves a possibility of a quick 2-port banshee attack.
There being no way to deny your opponent information wouldn't be good game design, either.
Zergs punish greedy T/P players all the time for cutting corners. It's only fair that they can be punished for cutting corners as well.
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On December 05 2011 14:33 Bd.Snake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 14:31 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:30 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:07 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. It's all from Zerg's greediness. Drones, drones, expand, expand... Build 2 spore crawlers and your problem solved. Why should terran always be prepared to muta by placing turrets but zerg not? The problem is zerg cannot scout it Why not just predict? Why not put 2 spores? Because that isn't good game design your just guessing
Are you kidding me or what? Bad game design to be prepared to air attack? And spend just few minerals to put some defense that doesn't hurt your economy whatsoever?
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On December 05 2011 14:36 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 14:33 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:31 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:30 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:07 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. It's all from Zerg's greediness. Drones, drones, expand, expand... Build 2 spore crawlers and your problem solved. Why should terran always be prepared to muta by placing turrets but zerg not? The problem is zerg cannot scout it Why not just predict? Why not put 2 spores? Because that isn't good game design your just guessing Are you kidding me or what? Bad game design to be prepared to air attack? And spend just few minerals to put some defense that doesn't hurt your economy whatsoever?
its fine to be prepared for everything but theres time where you cant tell at all. There were times in starcraft 1 like this as well like zvp before the corsair comes out
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On December 05 2011 14:35 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 14:33 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:31 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:30 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:07 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. It's all from Zerg's greediness. Drones, drones, expand, expand... Build 2 spore crawlers and your problem solved. Why should terran always be prepared to muta by placing turrets but zerg not? The problem is zerg cannot scout it Why not just predict? Why not put 2 spores? Because that isn't good game design your just guessing I think the point would be that you should be prepared to thrown down spores if the scouting info you're able to attain leaves a possibility of a quick 2-port banshee attack. There being no way to deny your opponent information wouldn't be good game design, either. Zergs punish greedy T/P players all the time for cutting corners. It's only fair that they can be punished for cutting corners as well.
You absolutely right here. I can't get how some people can not understand that...
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On December 05 2011 14:38 Bd.Snake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 14:36 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:33 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:31 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:30 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:07 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. It's all from Zerg's greediness. Drones, drones, expand, expand... Build 2 spore crawlers and your problem solved. Why should terran always be prepared to muta by placing turrets but zerg not? The problem is zerg cannot scout it Why not just predict? Why not put 2 spores? Because that isn't good game design your just guessing Are you kidding me or what? Bad game design to be prepared to air attack? And spend just few minerals to put some defense that doesn't hurt your economy whatsoever? its fine to be prepared for everything but theres time where you cant tell at all. There were times in starcraft 1 like this as well like zvp before the corsair comes out
Let's talk about SC2. Not 1.
And zerg lost not because of game-scouting-problem, but because of zerg's greediness. And this game really allows zerg to be greedy, and THAT is bad game design.
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On December 03 2011 06:35 wraggy1234 wrote:Hey guys, I've gathered the opinions of players such as White-ra, iNcontrol, BlinG and others about the upcoming expansion Heart of the Swarm. You can have a look here: http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/Starcraft-II/578/Heart-Of-The-Swarm-the-pro-players-opinion/Here is a preview: Cloud: 'I think the expansion will be a mess and blizzard won't be able to balance and control what they are about to do. I have very little expectations and I gave up on sc2 since it seems so many bad players can have decent results by just abusing the gamble aspect of this game.' Any feedback is welcome. ps: apologies for my previous post with the lack of information in the OP, hope this is better.  Raiden
Cloud is a whiner...... also hes not that good so he cant really talk
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[QUOTE]On December 05 2011 14:43 Jimbo77 wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 05 2011 14:38 Bd.Snake wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 05 2011 14:36 Jimbo77 wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 05 2011 14:33 Bd.Snake wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 05 2011 14:31 Jimbo77 wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 05 2011 14:30 Bd.Snake wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 05 2011 14:07 Jimbo77 wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh.[/QUOTE]
During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for).
You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up.
Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch.[/QUOTE]
It's all from Zerg's greediness. Drones, drones, expand, expand...
Build 2 spore crawlers and your problem solved.
Why should terran always be prepared to muta by placing turrets but zerg not? [/QUOTE]
The problem is zerg cannot scout it [/QUOTE]
Why not just predict? Why not put 2 spores?
[/QUOTE]
Because that isn't good game design your just guessing
[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding me or what? Bad game design to be prepared to air attack? And spend just few minerals to put some defense that doesn't hurt your economy whatsoever?
[/QUOTE]
its fine to be prepared for everything but theres time where you cant tell at all. There were times in starcraft 1 like this as well like zvp before the corsair comes out
[/QUOTE]
Let's talk about SC2. Not 1.
And zerg lost not because of game-scouting-problem, but because of zerg's greediness. And this game really allows zerg to be greedy, and THAT is bad game design.
[/Q im talking in general i cant be bothered arguing with you anymore everything you say convinces me that you have very little experience playing rts
That was a fail.
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On December 05 2011 13:51 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 13:45 Sawamura wrote:On December 05 2011 13:07 RampancyTW wrote:On December 05 2011 12:55 Raiznhell wrote:
The game having wonky units/abilities +easier noob friendly mechanics and a lack of units with any depth to them (come you can't tell me the roach, marauder and the collosus have much depth to them at all.....) means that any scrub that plays 3-5 hours a day in master league is not far off as for being competitive with a pro player that plays 8-15 hours a day in a team house living and breathing for the game due to random allins that are next to impossible to scout even if the opponent messes up a lot of things and you play almost perfectly.
in any other competitive sport let's just use basketball as an example no random kid who shoots hoops in his back year a little bit could hop on the court and compete in the NBA. but that is possible with sc2 where it wasn't with bw which is what makes the idea of it being an esport not very legit.
This is complete hyperbole And even if it were true (it isn't), none of it has anything to do with why, with all their supposed mechanical prowess from BW, ex-BW pros playing SC2 apparently can't manage 4 groups of units in different parts of the map at once despite the overall easier macro Why is that I mean, if any decent BW player can handle macroing off of 8 hatches in 3 different parts of the map while controlling large groups of zerglings in different parts of the map 12 at a time, why can decent SC2 players not even handle a large battle or two and a drop while macroing without screwing something up horribly Or effectively split their units before/during engagements Or incorporate infestors into their armies without throwing them away uselessly Or, on a related note, handle managing their large army on more than one hotkey Anytime a player manages to pull off one of the above things, they end up dominating the other player. But I see a lot of "pros" failing to successfully manage more difficult unit management/control. It has nothing to do with the skill ceiling and everything to do with the current level of play, which is slowly progressing as WoL gets older and older. But I'm sure SC2 is totally "too easy" and players are totally playing "perfectly" and losing to bad strategies. To completely say his argument is hyperbole in nature is totally flush his argument in to the toilet , I constantly refer to my argument that a amateur golfer compared to a pro golfer will never win a pro golfer in his game because , he is superiorly train to do the things to his do for a living . Same can be said for the mechanical demand needed to play broodwar at a higher level , he is saying that the skill ceiling for bw is much more higher than it is for sc2 , no where can a scrub beat Jaedong or flash in a best of 1000 of a game no matter how good he is . Just like Ryan Fitzpatrick will never have a worse game than Tom Brady, right? The mechanical demand needed to play SC:BW at a high level exists only because there are players SO GOOD that they have set the bar for play at that level. SC2's problem is that its pros have yet to set any sort of mechanical bar, because they can't consistently maintain their dominant mechanics. The more mechanically sound player almost always wins in SC2, provided they make good decisions with the information at hand. SC2 pros are not at all consistent when it comes to their mechanics. They lose units, forget about units, have careless control, fail to control their third and fourth groups of units at the same time as their first and second, forget to build units, get supply blocked, fail to properly adjust their builds constantly. The issue isn't that there's an inherent low mechanical requirement to play SC2, it's that the current players are setting the bar too low by failing to be consistently awesome when it comes to mechanics. edited to correct a few statements
Not even close, why do people who don't even play BW try to argue. I could take the time and say why every single thing you said is wrong but it would take too long and i would have trouble holding back the laughter. But really please stop even trying to argue.
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On December 05 2011 12:58 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:47 emc wrote:On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. and we saw a 2 port banshee from Jjakji in the most recent GSL finals on the SAME map and leenock owned it. What? you just expecting people wouldn't adapt and learn how to better counter things? well it's clear players are getting better and better, just look at the quality of games from Nov GSL 2010 and Nov GSL 2011. Even MLG and DH then and now is a stark contrast. and how would the transition from SC1 -> BW be any different from WoL -> HotS? Maybe you are forgetting that BW brought a ton of imbalances as well and was never truly stable until quite some time. If stability is something you want right now, then you're missing the point. The instability is what creates legends, would a player like Bisu have been so revolutionary if the game was already stabilized in PvZ? fuck no. SC2 is going to go through the same process and if we have to wait 10 years for legacy of the void to finally be stabilized then the game will be better for it. Also, what transition from SC1 to BW? There was no professional vanilla SC1 play. There was no transition. It took a few years from BW's release before it even took off in Korea. I'm not sure if you even know what you're talking about, honestly. How can you even consider imbalances that BW introduced, when the only thing one needed to do to win in vanilla SC1 was making Mutalisks?
This is so completely wrong. You won by making 150 mineral pools 
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EPT
