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On December 03 2011 06:59 Noro wrote:
Cloud is a baby. And so is anyone that thinks that they can predict how HotS will turn out. =/
agreed, way too early.
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On December 06 2011 02:13 Spicy_Curry wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 15:10 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 15:01 Spicy_Curry wrote:
I heard starcraft 1 was balanced and completely perfect one year after it came out. thx for that incredibly insightful input............... Yea no problem. Even after 1.08b much of the balancing came from mapmakers and not from blizzard. Without background knowledge on brood war there is no way to expect you to know that.
I dont want to get into how stupid you are but please dont post about things you know nothing about its better for the world :D
the point is the players and community balanced it after that patch not blizzard kthx
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On December 06 2011 02:02 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 21:45 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 14:43 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:38 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:36 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:33 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:31 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:30 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:07 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:
[quote]
During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for).
You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up.
Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. It's all from Zerg's greediness. Drones, drones, expand, expand... Build 2 spore crawlers and your problem solved. Why should terran always be prepared to muta by placing turrets but zerg not? The problem is zerg cannot scout it Why not just predict? Why not put 2 spores? Because that isn't good game design your just guessing Are you kidding me or what? Bad game design to be prepared to air attack? And spend just few minerals to put some defense that doesn't hurt your economy whatsoever? its fine to be prepared for everything but theres time where you cant tell at all. There were times in starcraft 1 like this as well like zvp before the corsair comes out Let's talk about SC2. Not 1. And zerg lost not because of game-scouting-problem, but because of zerg's greediness. And this game really allows zerg to be greedy, and THAT is bad game design. What in the world are you even talking about? In the game I'm talking about (which is free to watch on gomtv), Nestea did have two Spores and 3 Queens up blindly. He also got lucky and saw the Banshees move out with his Overlord, and immediately threw down like 5 more Spores. Didn't matter, lost anyway. He anticipated a ground-based all-in and delayed his Spire in order to get more defense up. If he hadn't done that, he'd be safe against banshees, but vulnerable to a marine/tank all-in. It's not about greediness, you simply cannot be prepared for both at the same time. Ok, just watched it. Spores weren't coming until 4 banshees were already on the way. To begin the game, Nestea overreacted hard to a "proxy" 2-rax push (the one proxy rax was almost as far away as the normal one), which set him back a little bit. Oops. Onto the 2-port Banshee piece: even if Nestea couldn't know whether or not a command center was being thrown down at all, sC was certainly on one base for an extended period of time. Keep lings outside his door, look for a push out. There was no reason to be so cautious with his overlords, especially once he gained map control. The second piece is: you know a one-base push is coming. Build queens! Do you know what's very effective in conjunction with spine crawlers? Queens with transfuse. Queens do as much dps vs. 0 armor as, and are tankier than, roaches, and don't cost larva. What are Queens also good against? Air. So how to deal with it: Notice sC is still on one-base. Continue to poke front with zerglings. No obvious sign of command center: prepare for one base push. Get full mineral saturation on 2 bases, begin to stockpile larva while building queens. Use queens to fling creep around the map, while keeping the energy moderately high on the extras. Build 3-4 spines. T is on one base. With full mineral saturation, you're still ahead.Building a lair was straight-up greedy. It's a terrible thing to sink resources into when you strongly suspect a 1-base push is coming, since lair tech takes a long time to kick in and start paying off. While being greedy, he failed to have spores/queens already in place to protect against the possibility of air. He got punished for it, and died because he was frustratingly cautious with his overlords and played greedy without even attempting to gain any information. If he responds properly, he crushes sC's play and makes him look stupid. By responding poorly,he made it look like a "coin flip" build when it really wasn't. Like I said, there's a reason you don't see more 2-port banshee shenanigans, and that's because it relies on your opponent playing stupid. If you spot a command center instead of a huge all-in at any point, drop your third/lair up ASAP. Use your stockpiled money/larva to take all gases and pump a huge round of drones. Proceed as (delayed) normal.
God Bless you.
People say SC2 has been figured out faster than any competitive game in history, yet we're still seeing that the skill ceiling hasn't come anywhere close to being reached yet. There is no such thing as perfect scouting, it doesn't exist in BW or SC2. People are calling things "coin flips" just because of IdrA comments from a WHILE ago.
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On December 05 2011 12:44 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 03:03 Belha wrote:On December 03 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:
Sc2 is already bad enough with all those aoe super powerful no brainer easy to use units (ghost, templar, colo, infestor). Let's add more spellcasting bs on the field so the game gets... worse. This is my opinion and I'm not being a crybaby. If you don't like it don't assume I'm just whining randomly. I'm not blaming my "lack of results" (?!?results that anyway most people who play sc2 all day would love to have) on a bad game since I know it was obviously due to the fact I never liked SC2 for the reasons I stated before so I was never able to enjoy and practice as much as many other tournament winning players. Even if the game is super gamblish and bad players can win against good ones it doesn't mean the very best players in the world are not able to put the results they deserve (and they can still lose to incomparably worse players - watch mlg orlando). Thing is they are gonna add stuff in hots that will probably be sick hard to balance with everything else already and I really wonder if there is any way for units like the oracle or the shredder to not fuck up totally the game. Don't get me wrong, I obviously hope I am just pessimistic and it won't be like this, still it looks pretty grim to me.
edit: and dont call me mid tier foreign player, cause i'm not. thanks. I've never played bw. I'm master sc2 player, and recently played sc2 bw maps and watched some pro league. Sc bw is so freaking superior to sc2, it's not even funny. I repeat: i'm not a bw fanboy, in fact i'm more a sc2 fanboy, but even the "sc2 bw" maps have so much better micro mechanics than sc2. I agree with cloud. After watching in bw maps, how better sc2 could have been. Sc2 is an amazing game, but the mechanics and balance design is totally flawed. That's what I've been talking about, you guys. Why aren't we embracing the custom "sc2 bw" map? There is just so much talk about how BW is superior and SC2 inferior. All it takes is one person to ignite this idea of the SC2 BW custom map, embrace, spread it like wildfire, and soon the tourneys will follow the custom map, instead of the flawed default SC2. It is completely the most perfect compromise and I am really disappointed to see so few people here acknowledge that simple, basic fact. BW in an SC2 engine. Can we please just spread the word and make it happen?
I blame the bad custom map settings of bnet 2.0. In BW there were community maps that really florished and eventually made into tournaments. We do not see this in SC2.
I wish they implement a wc3 like custom system along side the current one.
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I feel really betrayed by Blizzard's direct refusal to use good, time-tested unit designs from BW. Corsair is a great unit for fighting mutalisk. Why not use it? Goliath, vulture. Things like this make me sick.
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On December 06 2011 02:21 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 02:02 RampancyTW wrote:On December 05 2011 21:45 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 14:43 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:38 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:36 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:33 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:31 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:30 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:07 Jimbo77 wrote:
[quote]
It's all from Zerg's greediness. Drones, drones, expand, expand...
Build 2 spore crawlers and your problem solved.
Why should terran always be prepared to muta by placing turrets but zerg not? The problem is zerg cannot scout it Why not just predict? Why not put 2 spores? Because that isn't good game design your just guessing Are you kidding me or what? Bad game design to be prepared to air attack? And spend just few minerals to put some defense that doesn't hurt your economy whatsoever? its fine to be prepared for everything but theres time where you cant tell at all. There were times in starcraft 1 like this as well like zvp before the corsair comes out Let's talk about SC2. Not 1. And zerg lost not because of game-scouting-problem, but because of zerg's greediness. And this game really allows zerg to be greedy, and THAT is bad game design. What in the world are you even talking about? In the game I'm talking about (which is free to watch on gomtv), Nestea did have two Spores and 3 Queens up blindly. He also got lucky and saw the Banshees move out with his Overlord, and immediately threw down like 5 more Spores. Didn't matter, lost anyway. He anticipated a ground-based all-in and delayed his Spire in order to get more defense up. If he hadn't done that, he'd be safe against banshees, but vulnerable to a marine/tank all-in. It's not about greediness, you simply cannot be prepared for both at the same time. Ok, just watched it. Spores weren't coming until 4 banshees were already on the way. To begin the game, Nestea overreacted hard to a "proxy" 2-rax push (the one proxy rax was almost as far away as the normal one), which set him back a little bit. Oops. Onto the 2-port Banshee piece: even if Nestea couldn't know whether or not a command center was being thrown down at all, sC was certainly on one base for an extended period of time. Keep lings outside his door, look for a push out. There was no reason to be so cautious with his overlords, especially once he gained map control. The second piece is: you know a one-base push is coming. Build queens! Do you know what's very effective in conjunction with spine crawlers? Queens with transfuse. Queens do as much dps vs. 0 armor as, and are tankier than, roaches, and don't cost larva. What are Queens also good against? Air. So how to deal with it: Notice sC is still on one-base. Continue to poke front with zerglings. No obvious sign of command center: prepare for one base push. Get full mineral saturation on 2 bases, begin to stockpile larva while building queens. Use queens to fling creep around the map, while keeping the energy moderately high on the extras. Build 3-4 spines. T is on one base. With full mineral saturation, you're still ahead.Building a lair was straight-up greedy. It's a terrible thing to sink resources into when you strongly suspect a 1-base push is coming, since lair tech takes a long time to kick in and start paying off. While being greedy, he failed to have spores/queens already in place to protect against the possibility of air. He got punished for it, and died because he was frustratingly cautious with his overlords and played greedy without even attempting to gain any information. If he responds properly, he crushes sC's play and makes him look stupid. By responding poorly,he made it look like a "coin flip" build when it really wasn't. Like I said, there's a reason you don't see more 2-port banshee shenanigans, and that's because it relies on your opponent playing stupid. If you spot a command center instead of a huge all-in at any point, drop your third/lair up ASAP. Use your stockpiled money/larva to take all gases and pump a huge round of drones. Proceed as (delayed) normal. God Bless you. Obviously I'm nowhere nowhere nowhere near Nestea's level. And obviously what I said is a super simplification of the process. But seriously, he prepared poorly. There's no reason why he shouldn't have been ready for the possibility of 2-port banshee, and he very clearly wasn't ready. Frustrating game to watch.
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On December 06 2011 02:20 Bd.Snake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 02:13 Spicy_Curry wrote:On December 05 2011 15:10 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 15:01 Spicy_Curry wrote:
I heard starcraft 1 was balanced and completely perfect one year after it came out. thx for that incredibly insightful input............... Yea no problem. Even after 1.08b much of the balancing came from mapmakers and not from blizzard. Without background knowledge on brood war there is no way to expect you to know that. I dont want to get into how stupid you are but please dont post about things you know nothing about its better for the world :D the point is the players and community balanced it after that patch not blizzard kthx
You don't even make sense. I said that blizzard didn't balance the game the mapmakers did.
Even after 1.08b much of the balancing came from mapmakers and not from blizzard.
Then you just restate what I said and call me stupid.
On December 06 2011 02:20 Bd.Snake wrote:
the point is the players and community balanced it after that patch not blizzard kthx
Now I ask you, can you read?
Also, theorycrafting about an unreleased alpha stage game is so dumb. Why cant people like you just bite your tongue and actually watch what happens instead of opening your mouth whenever you get a chance to make a snide remark.
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On December 06 2011 03:29 Spicy_Curry wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 02:20 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 06 2011 02:13 Spicy_Curry wrote:On December 05 2011 15:10 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 15:01 Spicy_Curry wrote:
I heard starcraft 1 was balanced and completely perfect one year after it came out. thx for that incredibly insightful input............... Yea no problem. Even after 1.08b much of the balancing came from mapmakers and not from blizzard. Without background knowledge on brood war there is no way to expect you to know that. I dont want to get into how stupid you are but please dont post about things you know nothing about its better for the world :D the point is the players and community balanced it after that patch not blizzard kthx You don't even make sense. I said that blizzard didn't balance the game the mapmakers did. Show nested quote + Even after 1.08b much of the balancing came from mapmakers and not from blizzard.
Then you just restate what I said and call me stupid. Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 02:20 Bd.Snake wrote:
the point is the players and community balanced it after that patch not blizzard kthx Now I ask you, can you read? Also, theorycrafting about an unreleased alpha stage game is so dumb. Why cant people like you just bite your tongue and actually watch what happens instead of opening your mouth whenever you get a chance to make a snide remark.
i never theorycrafted anything lol you need to cool your jets and actually read what i wrote and yes i forgot to mention the mapmakers then you make your coy remarks it really is kinda funny how your writing all these angry things that have nothing to do with what i actually said with all the replies you have made you have not proven anything said anything that has any meaing to what i said thats why i said you should think before you say anything more stupid
im just gonna stop replying you obviously have nothing to discuss
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On December 03 2011 07:12 VanGarde wrote:
No offense to Cloud but it is getting silly how all of the mid tier foreign players are the ones who whine that the game is too random and the skill cap is too low so there is no point in competing. Unless you are beating mvp or nestea in gsl finals arguments like that are completely irrelevant when it comes to actually competing in the game. Seriously stop using how "flawed the game is" to explain away a lack of results. These kinds of comments always only come from the players who play seriously but who are never seen in the top of tournaments.
Completely disagree with your sentiments, just look at almost every other game, the skill caps are all way lower then starcraft yet they still have their top notch players that are hard to beat, the games are just not fun enough for "us" mid tier players to want to grind it out to become top tier or compete.
I would say the worst thing from switching from BW to SC2 is that my friends can beat me a percent of the time in SC2, where as in BW it was practically impossible. The skill cap was just too high.
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On December 06 2011 03:44 Jyxz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 07:12 VanGarde wrote:
No offense to Cloud but it is getting silly how all of the mid tier foreign players are the ones who whine that the game is too random and the skill cap is too low so there is no point in competing. Unless you are beating mvp or nestea in gsl finals arguments like that are completely irrelevant when it comes to actually competing in the game. Seriously stop using how "flawed the game is" to explain away a lack of results. These kinds of comments always only come from the players who play seriously but who are never seen in the top of tournaments. Completely disagree with your sentiments, just look at almost every other game, the skill caps are all way lower then starcraft yet they still have their top notch players that are hard to beat, the games are just not fun enough for "us" mid tier players to want to grind it out to become top tier or compete. I would say the worst thing from switching from BW to SC2 is that my friends can beat me a percent of the time in SC2, where as in BW it was practically impossible. The skill cap was just too high.
Drewbie beat MMA once in bo3 i think that should sum up the skill cap theory so far at least
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On December 06 2011 03:42 Bd.Snake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:29 Spicy_Curry wrote:On December 06 2011 02:20 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 06 2011 02:13 Spicy_Curry wrote:On December 05 2011 15:10 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 15:01 Spicy_Curry wrote:
I heard starcraft 1 was balanced and completely perfect one year after it came out. thx for that incredibly insightful input............... Yea no problem. Even after 1.08b much of the balancing came from mapmakers and not from blizzard. Without background knowledge on brood war there is no way to expect you to know that. I dont want to get into how stupid you are but please dont post about things you know nothing about its better for the world :D the point is the players and community balanced it after that patch not blizzard kthx You don't even make sense. I said that blizzard didn't balance the game the mapmakers did. Even after 1.08b much of the balancing came from mapmakers and not from blizzard.
Then you just restate what I said and call me stupid. On December 06 2011 02:20 Bd.Snake wrote:
the point is the players and community balanced it after that patch not blizzard kthx Now I ask you, can you read? Also, theorycrafting about an unreleased alpha stage game is so dumb. Why cant people like you just bite your tongue and actually watch what happens instead of opening your mouth whenever you get a chance to make a snide remark. i never theorycrafted anything lol you need to cool your jets and actually read what i wrote and yes i forgot to mention the mapmakers then you make your coy remarks it really is kinda funny how your writing all these angry things that have nothing to do with what i actually said with all the replies you have made you have not proven anything said anything that has any meaing to what i said thats why i said you should think before you say anything more stupid
Angry? Says who? Says you.Some random on the interwebz who doesn't know jack shit. If I got pissed everytime a idiot posted on a forum I would be one angry person.
Anyway, so far you have stated your opinion. However I have only made general statements that are mostly true.
1. Blizzard stopped patching sc1. Game reached the balance level that it currently has from the diligent work of mapmakers and community.
2. Arguing balance is pointless because despite what you believe, blizzard doesn't give two shits about what you think BD.snake.
Lastly before you try to flame me again,
Has every avenue of the game been explored?
If it has, then the game may be imbalanced.
If it hasn't, can you make remarks on balance since there are still options that are still unexplored?
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On December 06 2011 04:05 Spicy_Curry wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 03:42 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 06 2011 03:29 Spicy_Curry wrote:On December 06 2011 02:20 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 06 2011 02:13 Spicy_Curry wrote:On December 05 2011 15:10 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 15:01 Spicy_Curry wrote:
I heard starcraft 1 was balanced and completely perfect one year after it came out. thx for that incredibly insightful input............... Yea no problem. Even after 1.08b much of the balancing came from mapmakers and not from blizzard. Without background knowledge on brood war there is no way to expect you to know that. I dont want to get into how stupid you are but please dont post about things you know nothing about its better for the world :D the point is the players and community balanced it after that patch not blizzard kthx You don't even make sense. I said that blizzard didn't balance the game the mapmakers did. Even after 1.08b much of the balancing came from mapmakers and not from blizzard.
Then you just restate what I said and call me stupid. On December 06 2011 02:20 Bd.Snake wrote:
the point is the players and community balanced it after that patch not blizzard kthx Now I ask you, can you read? Also, theorycrafting about an unreleased alpha stage game is so dumb. Why cant people like you just bite your tongue and actually watch what happens instead of opening your mouth whenever you get a chance to make a snide remark. i never theorycrafted anything lol you need to cool your jets and actually read what i wrote and yes i forgot to mention the mapmakers then you make your coy remarks it really is kinda funny how your writing all these angry things that have nothing to do with what i actually said with all the replies you have made you have not proven anything said anything that has any meaing to what i said thats why i said you should think before you say anything more stupid Angry? Says who? Says you.Some random on the interwebz who doesn't know jack shit. If I got pissed everytime a idiot posted on a forum I would be one angry person. Anyway, so far you have stated your opinion. However I have only made general statements that are mostly true. 1. Blizzard stopped patching sc1. Game reached the balance level that it currently has from the diligent work of mapmakers and community. 2. Arguing balance is pointless because despite what you believe, blizzard doesn't give two shits about what you think BD.snake. Lastly before you try to flame me again, Has every avenue of the game been explored? If it has, then the game may be imbalanced. If it hasn't, can you make remarks on balance since there are still options that are still unexplored?
your anger is blinding your posts from making any sense i never argued balance i said that they should take more time before they released patches your posts still dont make sense not once have you discussed what i have said you just keep stating your opinion as fact i dont know how many times i have to tell you to think before you post i stated my opinion you didnt once argue it you just keep saying general things you say things like has every avenue of the game been explored you talk about balance and all this but not once did i talk about the games balance or heart of the swarms balance i just said that they should take more time with patches and stop listening to the people who just whine about how bad there race is so the game is more solid
besides not once have i flamed you yet you call me a idiot who doesnt know jackshit your posts are just a badly thought out mess
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On December 06 2011 04:31 Bd.Snake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 04:05 Spicy_Curry wrote:On December 06 2011 03:42 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 06 2011 03:29 Spicy_Curry wrote:On December 06 2011 02:20 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 06 2011 02:13 Spicy_Curry wrote:On December 05 2011 15:10 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 15:01 Spicy_Curry wrote:
I heard starcraft 1 was balanced and completely perfect one year after it came out. thx for that incredibly insightful input............... Yea no problem. Even after 1.08b much of the balancing came from mapmakers and not from blizzard. Without background knowledge on brood war there is no way to expect you to know that. I dont want to get into how stupid you are but please dont post about things you know nothing about its better for the world :D the point is the players and community balanced it after that patch not blizzard kthx You don't even make sense. I said that blizzard didn't balance the game the mapmakers did. Even after 1.08b much of the balancing came from mapmakers and not from blizzard.
Then you just restate what I said and call me stupid. On December 06 2011 02:20 Bd.Snake wrote:
the point is the players and community balanced it after that patch not blizzard kthx Now I ask you, can you read? Also, theorycrafting about an unreleased alpha stage game is so dumb. Why cant people like you just bite your tongue and actually watch what happens instead of opening your mouth whenever you get a chance to make a snide remark. i never theorycrafted anything lol you need to cool your jets and actually read what i wrote and yes i forgot to mention the mapmakers then you make your coy remarks it really is kinda funny how your writing all these angry things that have nothing to do with what i actually said with all the replies you have made you have not proven anything said anything that has any meaing to what i said thats why i said you should think before you say anything more stupid Angry? Says who? Says you.Some random on the interwebz who doesn't know jack shit. If I got pissed everytime a idiot posted on a forum I would be one angry person. Anyway, so far you have stated your opinion. However I have only made general statements that are mostly true. 1. Blizzard stopped patching sc1. Game reached the balance level that it currently has from the diligent work of mapmakers and community. 2. Arguing balance and game design is pointless because despite what you believe, blizzard doesn't give two shits about what you think. Lastly before you try to flame me again, Has every avenue of the game been explored? If it has, then the game may be imbalanced. If it hasn't, can you make remarks on balance since there are still options that are still unexplored? your anger is blinding your posts from making any sense i never argued balance i said that they should take more time before they released patches your posts still dont make sense not once have you discussed what i have said you just keep stating your opinion as fact i dont know how many times i have to tell you to think before you post i stated my opinion you didnt once argue it you just keep saying general things you say things like has every avenue of the game been explored you talk about balance and all this but not once did i talk about the games balance or heart of the swarms balance i just said that they should take more time with patches and stop listening to the people who just whine about how bad there race is so the game is more solid besides not once have i flamed you yet you call me a idiot who doesnt know jackshit your posts are just a badly thought out mess
I give up, you are right about patching things too quickly, that is obvious. Maybe that why I never responded to it? If you need confirmation, here it is. However, It looks like you are the one who is angry since you don't have time for punctuation. I cant expect someone to read through a mess like that.
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On December 06 2011 05:01 Spicy_Curry wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 04:31 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 06 2011 04:05 Spicy_Curry wrote:On December 06 2011 03:42 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 06 2011 03:29 Spicy_Curry wrote:On December 06 2011 02:20 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 06 2011 02:13 Spicy_Curry wrote:On December 05 2011 15:10 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 15:01 Spicy_Curry wrote:
I heard starcraft 1 was balanced and completely perfect one year after it came out. thx for that incredibly insightful input............... Yea no problem. Even after 1.08b much of the balancing came from mapmakers and not from blizzard. Without background knowledge on brood war there is no way to expect you to know that. I dont want to get into how stupid you are but please dont post about things you know nothing about its better for the world :D the point is the players and community balanced it after that patch not blizzard kthx You don't even make sense. I said that blizzard didn't balance the game the mapmakers did. Even after 1.08b much of the balancing came from mapmakers and not from blizzard.
Then you just restate what I said and call me stupid. On December 06 2011 02:20 Bd.Snake wrote:
the point is the players and community balanced it after that patch not blizzard kthx Now I ask you, can you read? Also, theorycrafting about an unreleased alpha stage game is so dumb. Why cant people like you just bite your tongue and actually watch what happens instead of opening your mouth whenever you get a chance to make a snide remark. i never theorycrafted anything lol you need to cool your jets and actually read what i wrote and yes i forgot to mention the mapmakers then you make your coy remarks it really is kinda funny how your writing all these angry things that have nothing to do with what i actually said with all the replies you have made you have not proven anything said anything that has any meaing to what i said thats why i said you should think before you say anything more stupid Angry? Says who? Says you.Some random on the interwebz who doesn't know jack shit. If I got pissed everytime a idiot posted on a forum I would be one angry person. Anyway, so far you have stated your opinion. However I have only made general statements that are mostly true. 1. Blizzard stopped patching sc1. Game reached the balance level that it currently has from the diligent work of mapmakers and community. 2. Arguing balance and game design is pointless because despite what you believe, blizzard doesn't give two shits about what you think. Lastly before you try to flame me again, Has every avenue of the game been explored? If it has, then the game may be imbalanced. If it hasn't, can you make remarks on balance since there are still options that are still unexplored? your anger is blinding your posts from making any sense i never argued balance i said that they should take more time before they released patches your posts still dont make sense not once have you discussed what i have said you just keep stating your opinion as fact i dont know how many times i have to tell you to think before you post i stated my opinion you didnt once argue it you just keep saying general things you say things like has every avenue of the game been explored you talk about balance and all this but not once did i talk about the games balance or heart of the swarms balance i just said that they should take more time with patches and stop listening to the people who just whine about how bad there race is so the game is more solid besides not once have i flamed you yet you call me a idiot who doesnt know jackshit your posts are just a badly thought out mess I give up troll
i dont get you at all so far you have claimed i flamed you when you called me a idiot who knew jackshit
said my opinions are all wrong without arguing them claimed you are right then you just call me a troll
please just think before you post i have not tried to force my opinion on you
bye
we will talk about my punctuation at a later date lol i never said i was right im just giving my opinion
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On December 03 2011 12:00 Velr wrote:
I don't see how anyone that saw the Hots multiplayer preview could have a positive oppinion about SC2.
What was shown at Blizzcon was just utter bullshit.
Seriously i think the people who disagree with ClouD must not be thinking this through in detail.. i don't consider myself too great of an RTS player as i don't play very often, but good enough to analysis how such large changes to the game will affect things.
The most obvious thing that stood out to me is that some, maybe the majority, of the new additions are going to be things which are either vital or useless, what's the middle ground for these shit ideas?. Infact all 3 of the new Protoss units are like this; Not to mention none of them are even relevant in PvP? Despite this being prehaps the worst matchup there is zero additions that will change it. I should know better since nobody probably reads other peoples opinions in detail but here's what i think of the units, focusing on the concepts and ignoring the fact stats can change;
Replicant: when this this ever going to be actually useful in a game? It's always going to have to cost more than the units it can copy; no single zerg unit will ever be worth it. The only feasible unit i can see is the tank rather than spellcasters, because why would you want to copy a single spellcaster or spend the time to build multiple replicants. And for the tank, either cloning tanks and turtling is a viable strategy, or it's not. There's NOTHING interesting about this unit, no situation will arise where it would suddenly be a good idea over a combat unit. Not to mention the idea of a P unit transforming into something anywhere on the map is fucking stupid and doesn't match the lore or the expected internal rules of the game.
Oracle: first, preordain is completely useless and would never be worth the energy cost compared to the other two abilities. Entomb i bet came from simply thinking of a way to harass without killing workers. I don't even care if this is viable because it's simply not interesting or fun to do or spectate. Phase shift sounds like it's most likely to be broken and nerfed until it's not even worth getting the unit. Targeting minerals and buildings is a really boring idea in the first place, and the oracle is either going to be too expensive and not built at all or too cheap and they will be flying around in groups constantly freezing minerals/buildings, and most likely broken in PvZ.
Tempest: this is the one i hate the most cause it seems like they just added the carrier for nothing and couldn't wait to put this back in. No micro, nothing interesting in this unit at all, no skill required. Either it counters zerg air effectively, or it doesn't and is changed until it does counter it or they give up. Even the removed shuriken idea would be more interesting to counter muta's with. This and the replicant deserve 0/10 for originality.
The T/Z units have their own problems (especially shredder/swarm host which frankly suck). But these are just the worst. There's NO middle ground between units which have overly-micro heavy abilities which you'll constantly do and units which require no micro or skill at all. How about any units which require skill which doesn't involve an unimaginative ability attached to it, and are not being forced into a single blatantly obvious role with no other use. Blizzard seem to have this idea of main composition then everything else is harass/support; probably so it's easy to balance the main compositions with each other with simplistic units like roach/marauder/stalker then roughly balance the rest separately.
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Or more like we wonder why we should care what a low-mid tier foreign 'pro' thinks about an unreleased expansion? Honestly his opinion is no more valid or legit than any random GM player (or mid-high Korean Masters).
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On December 06 2011 03:44 Jyxz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 07:12 VanGarde wrote:
No offense to Cloud but it is getting silly how all of the mid tier foreign players are the ones who whine that the game is too random and the skill cap is too low so there is no point in competing. Unless you are beating mvp or nestea in gsl finals arguments like that are completely irrelevant when it comes to actually competing in the game. Seriously stop using how "flawed the game is" to explain away a lack of results. These kinds of comments always only come from the players who play seriously but who are never seen in the top of tournaments. Completely disagree with your sentiments, just look at almost every other game, the skill caps are all way lower then starcraft yet they still have their top notch players that are hard to beat, the games are just not fun enough for "us" mid tier players to want to grind it out to become top tier or compete. I would say the worst thing from switching from BW to SC2 is that my friends can beat me a percent of the time in SC2, where as in BW it was practically impossible. The skill cap was just too high.
So you recognize that at the pro level some players are much better than others... this would suggest that there's not a skill cap problem.. but no, it's actually because the game isn't "fun enough".
"Yeah, I could be a top tier pro, but the game's just not fun enough so I'll stick with the mid tier, which still requires a lot of devotion to a game that isn't fun."
Also, I don't see how a player taking a game off of a better player occasionally is such a horrible thing... this is something that can happen in many successful sports/games and can lead to exciting upsets.
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On December 05 2011 14:43 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 14:38 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:36 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:33 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:31 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 14:30 Bd.Snake wrote:On December 05 2011 14:07 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 05 2011 12:40 Toadvine wrote:On December 05 2011 12:09 RampancyTW wrote:
It's ridiculous to me that "pros" can lose all the time to misclicks, mismicros, not watching units, inappropriate responses to situations going on etc... and then complain about the lack of mechanical depth/difficulty of SC2.
It's ridiculous to me that every time you see a juggernaut player lose to a relative unknown, you can go back through the games and pick out exactly why they lost due to poor decision-making or mechanical missteps, yet people try to blame the game for it.
If the game is so easy, and so random, why is it that no player has come close to displaying either awareness-related or mechanical perfection on a consistent basis in SC2? Why is it that when players are nowhere near the skill ceiling, there are people claiming it's too low? We can't even see it. We're nowhere near it yet.
Builds that months ago were considered imbalanced are now standard fare. Hell, some builds that were persistently problematic for up to a year have found themselves less and less effective as players get better and better at recognizing and dealing with formerly "abusive" openings.
SC2 has yet to even begin to approach the level of play present in SC:BW. If/when it does, you can begin to draw valid comparisons and critiques about any randomness or skill ceiling. But when even the best players can't even consistently play merely well, why are we judging the game? Ugh. During the GSL November Ro32, Nestea played against sC on Bel'Shir Beach, and lost to 2port Banshee. I dare you to watch that game and tell me what he could've done to know whether it was that, or a ground-based all-in (which is what he ended up preparing for). You really don't need the game to be played for 5 years to notice stupid crap like this. Either you can scout it or you need a build that can deal with everything - and if that doesn't exist, you flip a coin and hope for the best. No matter what the skill ceiling is, nobody can make spine crawlers shoot up. Finally, we won't really see any truly refined play in WoL, because HotS will arrive, destroy most of what has been developed up until that point, and then we'll enter another 6 month period where Blizzard will constantly nerf all the imbalanced crap they threw into the game, and continue to ignore the basic design problems that have been producing all these imbalances since WoL launch. It's all from Zerg's greediness. Drones, drones, expand, expand... Build 2 spore crawlers and your problem solved. Why should terran always be prepared to muta by placing turrets but zerg not? The problem is zerg cannot scout it Why not just predict? Why not put 2 spores? Because that isn't good game design your just guessing Are you kidding me or what? Bad game design to be prepared to air attack? And spend just few minerals to put some defense that doesn't hurt your economy whatsoever? its fine to be prepared for everything but theres time where you cant tell at all. There were times in starcraft 1 like this as well like zvp before the corsair comes out Let's talk about SC2. Not 1. And zerg lost not because of game-scouting-problem, but because of zerg's greediness. And this game really allows zerg to be greedy, and THAT is bad game design.
how is that different from BW? How was zerg not allowed to be greedy in BW? remember how BW overlord was also a detector. That took away MORE options from the other races. You couldn't just go wraith rush in BW. Therefore even MORE greedy then SC2.
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On December 06 2011 02:26 TORTOISE wrote:
I feel really betrayed by Blizzard's direct refusal to use good, time-tested unit designs from BW. Corsair is a great unit for fighting mutalisk. Why not use it? Goliath, vulture. Things like this make me sick.
Once again, yet another reason to promote the SC2 BW custom map.
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On December 06 2011 03:44 Jyxz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 07:12 VanGarde wrote:
No offense to Cloud but it is getting silly how all of the mid tier foreign players are the ones who whine that the game is too random and the skill cap is too low so there is no point in competing. Unless you are beating mvp or nestea in gsl finals arguments like that are completely irrelevant when it comes to actually competing in the game. Seriously stop using how "flawed the game is" to explain away a lack of results. These kinds of comments always only come from the players who play seriously but who are never seen in the top of tournaments. Completely disagree with your sentiments, just look at almost every other game, the skill caps are all way lower then starcraft yet they still have their top notch players that are hard to beat, the games are just not fun enough for "us" mid tier players to want to grind it out to become top tier or compete. I would say the worst thing from switching from BW to SC2 is that my friends can beat me a percent of the time in SC2, where as in BW it was practically impossible. The skill cap was just too high.
I hate to say it but it almost reminds me of Linux versus everyone else.
The UNIX/Linux diehards(the guys who know how to write applications to the point that they can code the entire OS from scratch) want to keep the OS exclusive to just their little community. They turn up their noses at the Redhat distros, all those variations that try to make Linux easier for the masses. The combination of the elitism, fragmentation, and so on prevented Linux from every reaching the mainstream. Meanwhile everyone's running either Windows or Macs. These elite people want everyone to be stuck in a world of a command line, and that's it.
That's why I almost feel that this is sour grapes. SC2 simplified much of the mechanics, so people can stop worrying so much about the basics and just jump into the action(extra rally points for workers, automine, etc).
Because your friends didn't have to worry about all these mundane things in SC2(whereas in BW, they simply couldn't keep up with you due to all the "housework" they were ill-equiped to take care), they could actually execute some scary timings.
Finally let's think about this. Your friends had a hope in hell of taking 1 game off of you(out of let's say 1 game out of 50 maybe)? You want them to never, ever have a chance in hell. Would they stay interested in this game, or move on to something else, because honestly, they're bored? Should probably think about that.
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