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On December 04 2011 04:41 StarStruck wrote:
BTW Cloud is spot on about Sean. Promoting the game has become his job and you will always see him take a step back before he answers any touchy subject. Not the first time I say this either. Sean's a master at self-editing himself. It's smart on his part to take all the time in the world to construct his answers to such controversial things.
Too bad "Sean Plott carefully chooses his words in order to protect his paycheck" has absolutely no bearing on the issue of whether or not video game skill denotes the ability to understand and articulate issues in game design, a question that everyone seems terrified to answer.
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On December 04 2011 04:45 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 04:40 MichaelJLowell wrote:On December 04 2011 04:39 aTnClouD wrote:On December 04 2011 04:36 MichaelJLowell wrote:
What is your purpose in playing a video game that you clearly do not like? I like competing, I like traveling, I like knowing new people and I like the idea of making money out of it. I'm not the only one. Go back and read what I wrote. Don't skip to the bottom of the post and ignore everything else I had to say. You asked a question and I kindly answered. The rest of that post is just bs and I will also give you a tip: if you want to be taken seriously don't tell people what to do and don't bold words randomly when you write your stuff.
You're fucking hopeless. I'll go waste my words on my cat and at least he'll cluelessly purr and nuzzle my hand, which is more productive than anything you've done in this thread.
God, eight-to-ten hours a day of StarCraft and all you can do is pull out the "LOL U BOLD WORDS UR STOOPID" card. Get a grip. This is why I don't take the StarCraft opinion of someone seriously just because they're good at the game.
User was warned for this post
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Personally I dislike the Terran vs Protoss match up as it requires stutter stepping from the Terran to stand a chance in most battles, hopefully the new units will change this.
LOL
Guy wants to a+move versus Protoss just like he does versus Zerg? Is that right? No more micro? As if one needed to stutter step after a EMP shower xD LOLOLOLOL
It seems to me that WhiteRa's and Cloud's opinions are the most down-the-earth ones: Heart of the Swarm, as it is at the moment, will be a crappy expansion. I don't think it will be worth buying that thing for at least 6 months, when the most obvious imbalance problems will have been attended.
As a Protoss player, I have no expectations regarding this expansion, since the announced Protoss units are shit. I mean, you give Protoss a unit for harassment that does not kill anything. Then you give Protoss something to deal with Mass Mutas that needs 3 bases (LOL!) and then you give a unit that is made for CLONING ENEMY UNITS, but that CAN'T CLONE MASSIVE UNITS. I mean, if I wanted Zerg or Terran units, I would fucking play Zerg or Terran. What the fuck is Blizzard thinking, really? Even pro players are worried about what is to become of Starcraft 2, why shouldn't we be?
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On December 04 2011 04:52 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 04:45 aTnClouD wrote:On December 04 2011 04:40 MichaelJLowell wrote:On December 04 2011 04:39 aTnClouD wrote:On December 04 2011 04:36 MichaelJLowell wrote:
What is your purpose in playing a video game that you clearly do not like? I like competing, I like traveling, I like knowing new people and I like the idea of making money out of it. I'm not the only one. Go back and read what I wrote. Don't skip to the bottom of the post and ignore everything else I had to say. You asked a question and I kindly answered. The rest of that post is just bs and I will also give you a tip: if you want to be taken seriously don't tell people what to do and don't bold words randomly when you write your stuff. You're fucking hopeless. I'll go waste my words on my cat and at least he'll cluelessly purr and nuzzle my hand, which is more productive than anything you've done in this thread. God, eight-to-ten hours a day of StarCraft and all you can do is pull out the "LOL U BOLD WORDS UR STOOPID" card. Get a grip. This is why I don't take the StarCraft opinion of someone seriously just because they're good at the game.
he actually gave a spot on answer dude... he's not just playing a videogame here, its his job...
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On December 04 2011 04:36 MichaelJLowell wrote:
Fighting game players accept that "imbalance" is relative to the metagame (where underpowered and weak strategies and characters may someday become mid-and-high-tier characters) and don't complain about it. If the character is too weak, they change the character. And if they find out that imbalance makes the game no fun to play, they play a different video game, which is something the real-time strategy community (built on the idea that players can complain to the developer and they'll put out a balance patch) doesn't seem able to figure out.
But at the same time there's nothing wrong with complaining is there - I mean Blizzard does listen to complaints, and the patches are really based on the feedback of its users, which could be seen as complaints. You can complain but also continue to play and enjoy the game as much as one can at the same time! I hope I didn't misunderstand you
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On December 04 2011 04:53 Avan wrote:Show nested quote + Personally I dislike the Terran vs Protoss match up as it requires stutter stepping from the Terran to stand a chance in most battles, hopefully the new units will change this. LOL Guy wants to a+move versus Protoss just like he does versus Zerg? Is that right? No more micro? As if one needed to stutter step after a EMP shower xD LOLOLOLOL
I'm pretty sure he wants wants mech TvP similar to BW which is actually good and you know isn't just herp derp 2 balls skirting eachother and one battle decides everything.
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On December 04 2011 04:39 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 04:36 MichaelJLowell wrote:
What is your purpose in playing a video game that you clearly do not like? I like competing, I like traveling, I like knowing new people and I like the idea of making money out of it. I'm not the only one.
So you like the positive sides of easy progamer life, but are unhappy about the game itself. You complain about the pathfinding and too powerfull aoe spells when almost no one splits their units effectively in combat. Only pro I've seen do it semi-regular is Puma when pre-emptively dodging storms and setting up flanks. You complain about spellcasters, when efficient spellcaster usage brings more ways to shine to the game. HotS doesn't bring any more AoE spells to the game, but it brings more ways to play better.
So all I have to say is that maybe you should appreciate your welfare and think positive about the game that enables you to compete, travel, get to know new people and make money.
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On December 04 2011 04:41 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 02:41 RvB wrote:On December 04 2011 02:31 dignitas.merz wrote:On December 04 2011 02:10 Elefanto wrote:On December 04 2011 02:02 Gentso wrote:
It's funny how 'pros' are still using that excuse for losing. The best players consistently do well, it's just about getting to that level. This game was so build and that 'one deciding battle' focused for so long people (pros. mainly foreigners) don't play it well enough. SC2 has evolved beyond coin flip, it's 100% whoever plays better wins. First TT1's thread and now this statement.. I find it kind of sad. I believe they think they're better than they actually are. So, you think your insight gives you better judgment over the intricacies at the top level than people who invested over a year worth of dedicated practice into the game? I don't think you should speak so condescending to these people. Point is Gentso, even the best players (HuK for example) still lacks consistency. No one can deny their skill, and how good they are at this game, yet they go from winning huge events to failing in Group stages day 1 vs complete "no names". Things like these tells me a thing or two about how volatile the game still is. I'm certain ClouD for example, isn't complaining about this due to his own losses. Whenever I go to events and I see a favorite losing to a complete unknown (which pretty much happends every event now) it just saddens me. Upsets are upsets for a reason, they are called upsets because they rarely happen and no one expected that guy to win. But at this time, they are not even upsets, when a really good player loses to someone unknown we're hardly even surprised anymore, because that's just how this game is at the moment, and it sucks. There are also a lot of other factors involved in player performance, take for example all the traveling and exhaustion. Some people also perform better than others with less sleep etc. It's way to easy to just say the game is volatile but not factor in any of these circumstances which could very well be the biggest reason of them losing to lesser players. edit: also it's just stupid to compare sc2 and bw. Bw has a lot more closed tournament system than sc2 does, you need a progamer license which is very hard to get and then there are only a few player you will ever meet. It's way easier to prepare for these players since you know everyone and like I already said they have nearly no traveling. Also there were only 2 tournaments ( now just OSL ) and proleague to prepare for while most tournaments in sc2 are ones that go over the weekend and give you no time to prepare for your opponent. The only place that slightly resembles this is the GSL which does see quite some volatility but in the end mvp and nestea ( although slumping a bit ) and a few months ago MC would always come on top. Regurgitation, awesome! Players like HuK and IdrA (who make appearances at most majors) should be used to the travel schedule by now. There are some things you can control and some things you cannot. Those are minor excuses. Jet-lag is nothing more than an overused cop-out in most cases. You will get sick regardless if you don't take the proper precautions. With that said, we're seeing more and more players who travel around a lot flying out a few days to a week prior. A few days is more than enough. As for your spiel about tournament formats. Um, no? When it comes to preparation, BW players have to prepare more because of the competition level. If you make it on the A-team you've already proven your worth. The amount of preparation they have to do before each match is tenfold especially with the new format. We only see the best of the best. Look into the death stare. Tell me what you see? Sure, their practice is more focused because they only have one map in PL, but they give it their all. The amount of preparation that goes into individual leagues is just as rough as well. Traveling has nothing to do with BW. We're talking about the overall design of the game man and let's face it. There are plenty of things Blizzard can do to make it better. GSL is no different from the BW leagues-- the same fucking principles apply and guess what? The GSL is living proof that the game is volatile and this won't change anytime soon. With that said, there are still major flaws in the game design. BTW Cloud is spot on about Sean. Promoting the game has become his job and you will always see him take a step back before he answers any touchy subject. Not the first time I say this either. Sean's a master at self-editing himself. It's smart on his part to take all the time in the world to construct his answers to such controversial things.
Traveling is still something they have to deal with more than 'lesser' players it influences your performance. And as we all know in a game of starcraft mere seconds can decide whether you win or lose. So yes even if the effects aren't massive it can still cause a loss.
And practising for a specific opponent obviously decreases volatility, you will almost never get a player whose playstyle you don't know at all and you won't be against a player that could have specifically just prepared for you while you don't even know him that just doesn't happen in BW because it's a lot more closed. You don't have open brackets etc. If you would put the top 32 players of sc2 in a league together and let them prepare for each match you bet the better player would more frequently come out on top.
The GSL has a very different format though with code A and Code B, and it has new talents come out every time, not just lesser players that beat mvp once and then got knocked out ( those are there too ) but a lot of the volatility comes from that.
I agree the game isn't perfect but to say they're major flaws in game design is just overreacting, if it actually had so many design flaws it wouldn't have 100k viewers every big tournament.
Ima go off now though so if you want to respond pm.
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On December 04 2011 04:39 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 04:36 MichaelJLowell wrote:
What is your purpose in playing a video game that you clearly do not like? I like competing, I like traveling, I like knowing new people and I like the idea of making money out of it. I'm not the only one.
Sorry ClouD I like your "I say what I think attitude" and I respect you but you say that this game is random and luck based and then you say you like to compete? So you like the rock, paper, scissor kind of competition?
Sorry but if I think that a game is luck based I simply don't play it in a competitive way.
If you say that you like all the other stuff I can agree but not on this point.
And sorry for my english I would like to post this in italian but here I can't lol. I hope you and the other guys understand my point.
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On December 04 2011 05:00 Darksteel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 04:39 aTnClouD wrote:On December 04 2011 04:36 MichaelJLowell wrote:
What is your purpose in playing a video game that you clearly do not like? I like competing, I like traveling, I like knowing new people and I like the idea of making money out of it. I'm not the only one. So you like the positive sides of easy progamer life, but are unhappy about the game itself. You complain about the pathfinding and too powerfull aoe spells when almost no one splits their units effectively in combat. Only pro I've seen do it semi-regular is Puma when pre-emptively dodging storms and setting up flanks. You complain about spellcasters, when efficient spellcaster usage brings more ways to shine to the game. HotS doesn't bring any more AoE spells to the game, but it brings more ways to play better. So all I have to say is that maybe you should appreciate your welfare and think positive about the game that enables you to compete, travel, get to know new people and make money.
What I think of the game and what I make out of it are two things that have no direct relation. I can think what I want of SC2 and still practice a lot, get better and have better results. I will practice like crazy in HotS unlike I did for WoL and I am sure I will have good results, but from what I've seen so far of that expansion I won't like it and I just said so. You say I should be grateful to the game itself (?!?) because it allows me to do what I like. This makes no sense.
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I love cloud's posts in this thread.
I've played a few RTS games. In my opinion, SC2 is a not a great RTS, but it's solid. The only reason I play it as much as I do is because the bustling community. If the community shrinks to the level BW was at for about 8 years, give or take, I'll start RTS hopping from the SC2 expansion, to AOE, to WC4, and to a few of the cooler indie ones as well.
Trust nobody when money is involved ;p. If you could make well over six figures a year, and thousands for a WEEKEND, what lies would you tell!
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Northern Ireland25282 Posts
I hate the absolutism and the tribal nature of discussions on SC2 as it stands mechanically. I have never even played BW beyond the campaign and BGH games, followed the scene quite late-on but it is clearly a better spectacle and generally the better player usually wins. I like both games, and don't see why some SC2-specific fans can't look at incorporating mechanical changes to make the game... gasp.. BETTER?!
SC2 is a great game to play, and there IS strategic depth in it. However some of the mechanics are just a bit too easy to execute. Clumping has a few problems. Firstly it makes the game far too reliant on AoE units, secondly the likes of bio balls form a kind of defensive formation that automatically reduce their surface area against melee units. Zealots used to be truly terrifying, now they are merely quite scary if they have upgrades/charge/archon support.
WG is a problem, Protoss needs to be balanced around it. It negates defenders advantage to an extent, so Protoss all-ins can be a nightmare both to scout and defend properly. Conversely Protoss gateway units are terribly cost inefficient, the flipside being that their tech units are good (namely the collosus).
Another problem following on from this is that the tech units become game-defining. If the Terran has sufficient vikings to wipe your collosi out, but hasn't over-made them, he'll stomp you in the engagement. If the Terran doesn't have enough vikings and supplies are roughly even, he's going to get creamed.
This is complicated further with the ghost/templar battles as well, but it's a basic pattern that is observed in most matchups:
Blobs of core units vs another blob of core units with a few 'tech' units and a few hard-counter units. The battles often aren't decided on positioning or micro, but as to who has the better ratio of tech/counter units.
People say things like 'spread' your units. I pre-emptively spread all my stuff all the time, have separate control groups and all that good stuff. The second I go 1a2a3a, they all CLUMP UP, immediately.
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On December 04 2011 05:04 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 05:00 Darksteel wrote:On December 04 2011 04:39 aTnClouD wrote:On December 04 2011 04:36 MichaelJLowell wrote:
What is your purpose in playing a video game that you clearly do not like? I like competing, I like traveling, I like knowing new people and I like the idea of making money out of it. I'm not the only one. So you like the positive sides of easy progamer life, but are unhappy about the game itself. You complain about the pathfinding and too powerfull aoe spells when almost no one splits their units effectively in combat. Only pro I've seen do it semi-regular is Puma when pre-emptively dodging storms and setting up flanks. You complain about spellcasters, when efficient spellcaster usage brings more ways to shine to the game. HotS doesn't bring any more AoE spells to the game, but it brings more ways to play better. So all I have to say is that maybe you should appreciate your welfare and think positive about the game that enables you to compete, travel, get to know new people and make money. What I think of the game and what I make out of it are two things that have no direct relation. I can think what I want of SC2 and still practice a lot, get better and have better results. I will practice like crazy in HotS unlike I did for WoL and I am sure I will have good results, but from what I've seen so far of that expansion I won't like it and I just said so. You say I should be grateful to the game itself (?!?) because it allows me to do what I like. This makes no sense.
At this point I just don't understand. Why would you be a professional gamer if you don't enjoy the game? I understand that the best in the world can make a LOT of money, but there can only be a handful of people who win the GSL, and even then, there are still a lot easier ways to make more money.
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Guys, remember how things were introduced in the alpha? then changed heaps in the beta? then the game got released and it changed even more? The given information about HOTS is not definite , it will most likely to change hence there isn't really a point in arguing about HOTS balance.
What worries me is that Starcraft 2 is being very balanced with the latest patch looking at many recent tournaments and is finally becoming a solid e-sports game. The introduction of HOTS and how Blizzard needs to balance again worries me. Not a fan of DK really but yea
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On December 04 2011 05:09 mbr2321 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 05:04 aTnClouD wrote:On December 04 2011 05:00 Darksteel wrote:On December 04 2011 04:39 aTnClouD wrote:On December 04 2011 04:36 MichaelJLowell wrote:
What is your purpose in playing a video game that you clearly do not like? I like competing, I like traveling, I like knowing new people and I like the idea of making money out of it. I'm not the only one. So you like the positive sides of easy progamer life, but are unhappy about the game itself. You complain about the pathfinding and too powerfull aoe spells when almost no one splits their units effectively in combat. Only pro I've seen do it semi-regular is Puma when pre-emptively dodging storms and setting up flanks. You complain about spellcasters, when efficient spellcaster usage brings more ways to shine to the game. HotS doesn't bring any more AoE spells to the game, but it brings more ways to play better. So all I have to say is that maybe you should appreciate your welfare and think positive about the game that enables you to compete, travel, get to know new people and make money. What I think of the game and what I make out of it are two things that have no direct relation. I can think what I want of SC2 and still practice a lot, get better and have better results. I will practice like crazy in HotS unlike I did for WoL and I am sure I will have good results, but from what I've seen so far of that expansion I won't like it and I just said so. You say I should be grateful to the game itself (?!?) because it allows me to do what I like. This makes no sense. At this point I just don't understand. Why would you be a professional gamer if you don't enjoy the game? I understand that the best in the world can make a LOT of money, but there can only be a handful of people who win the GSL, and even then, there are still a lot easier ways to make more money.
I answered above to the exact same question. And honestly the source of my complaint is not the fact I don't like SC2. I think SC2 is a great game better than most RTS out there hands down. Problem is SCBW was just on another level and what makes me sad is that SC2 is just a huge delusion compared to its predecessor. This expansion is not going to make things better and that's why my opinion is negative. If there was no SCBW in the first place as a term of comparison I am pretty sure everybody would love SC2 even more.
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On December 03 2011 07:26 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 06:46 Grumbels wrote:
I wonder why there aren't any new updates on HotS. Blizzcon is like 6 weeks ago now, so they have gone through an entire new set of iterations for the new units and such. I wish they would have updates every time they did some relevant change. pretty simply, blizzcon is the place where they show how far they are, other then that they don't show off every single change, they show things if they are almost finished, which is now done by doing beta testing. So there won't be alot of informations about it until the next blizzcon. You shouldn't be spoiled from the indie devs, that will tease out any change they make. Otherwise there would also be no reason to make a blizzcon at all.
I actually think that Blizzcon is like a deadline for the design team to cram up something to show people. any thing we seen from the blizzcon can be scrapped or made huge change in their finalized form.
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On December 04 2011 05:12 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 05:09 mbr2321 wrote:On December 04 2011 05:04 aTnClouD wrote:On December 04 2011 05:00 Darksteel wrote:On December 04 2011 04:39 aTnClouD wrote:On December 04 2011 04:36 MichaelJLowell wrote:
What is your purpose in playing a video game that you clearly do not like? I like competing, I like traveling, I like knowing new people and I like the idea of making money out of it. I'm not the only one. So you like the positive sides of easy progamer life, but are unhappy about the game itself. You complain about the pathfinding and too powerfull aoe spells when almost no one splits their units effectively in combat. Only pro I've seen do it semi-regular is Puma when pre-emptively dodging storms and setting up flanks. You complain about spellcasters, when efficient spellcaster usage brings more ways to shine to the game. HotS doesn't bring any more AoE spells to the game, but it brings more ways to play better. So all I have to say is that maybe you should appreciate your welfare and think positive about the game that enables you to compete, travel, get to know new people and make money. What I think of the game and what I make out of it are two things that have no direct relation. I can think what I want of SC2 and still practice a lot, get better and have better results. I will practice like crazy in HotS unlike I did for WoL and I am sure I will have good results, but from what I've seen so far of that expansion I won't like it and I just said so. You say I should be grateful to the game itself (?!?) because it allows me to do what I like. This makes no sense. At this point I just don't understand. Why would you be a professional gamer if you don't enjoy the game? I understand that the best in the world can make a LOT of money, but there can only be a handful of people who win the GSL, and even then, there are still a lot easier ways to make more money. I answered above to the exact same question. And honestly the source of my complaint is not the fact I don't like SC2. I think SC2 is a great game better than most RTS out there hands down. Problem is SCBW was just on another level and what makes me sad is that SC2 is just a huge delusion compared to its predecessor.
I completely disagree with you, but that's a different topic. But even if this assertion has merit, what makes you think HotS will be "a huge delusion" compared to BW?
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On December 04 2011 05:05 -_- wrote:
Trust nobody when money is involved ;p. If you could make well over six figures a year, and thousands for a WEEKEND, what lies would you tell!
So wisely said.
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On December 04 2011 05:09 mbr2321 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 05:04 aTnClouD wrote:On December 04 2011 05:00 Darksteel wrote:On December 04 2011 04:39 aTnClouD wrote:On December 04 2011 04:36 MichaelJLowell wrote:
What is your purpose in playing a video game that you clearly do not like? I like competing, I like traveling, I like knowing new people and I like the idea of making money out of it. I'm not the only one. So you like the positive sides of easy progamer life, but are unhappy about the game itself. You complain about the pathfinding and too powerfull aoe spells when almost no one splits their units effectively in combat. Only pro I've seen do it semi-regular is Puma when pre-emptively dodging storms and setting up flanks. You complain about spellcasters, when efficient spellcaster usage brings more ways to shine to the game. HotS doesn't bring any more AoE spells to the game, but it brings more ways to play better. So all I have to say is that maybe you should appreciate your welfare and think positive about the game that enables you to compete, travel, get to know new people and make money. What I think of the game and what I make out of it are two things that have no direct relation. I can think what I want of SC2 and still practice a lot, get better and have better results. I will practice like crazy in HotS unlike I did for WoL and I am sure I will have good results, but from what I've seen so far of that expansion I won't like it and I just said so. You say I should be grateful to the game itself (?!?) because it allows me to do what I like. This makes no sense. At this point I just don't understand. Why would you be a professional gamer if you don't enjoy the game? I understand that the best in the world can make a LOT of money, but there can only be a handful of people who win the GSL, and even then, there are still a lot easier ways to make more money.
Not being satisfied about the current state of the game means you should quit? Everyone of us wants this game to be as perfect as it can be. The game is still not an entire coinflip, it's just pretty volatile at the moment. I don't think there's any progamer out there that feels the game is right where it needs to be, but we've seen improvements and it's still a great game. But when we see something that's wrong with it we should be able to complain, no?
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