I was working on this post explaining why "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team house?", was a poorly done article that should not be featured on TL when I started running a few stats on some EG players. As it turned out, both Incontrol and Axslav did worse in the second season of NASL while Machine didn't even qualify for season two.
On the surface, it looks pretty bad. Not only did they do significantly worse, but the general consensus seems to be that Season Two was a weaker field. With the exodus of top Koreans, including 7 of the 15 final tournament participants (excluding open tournament), the field must surely be weaker, right? Seemingly the only saving grace for Season 2 was the addition of a few top end foreigners and foreign-team Koreans such as HerO (14-2), DeMusliM (12-4), PuMa (12-4), and HuK (11-6). But perhaps the more important thing to note is that the bottom of the league also was cut/replaced. After crunching a few numbers, I can safely come to a bold conclusion:
Season Two of NASL had a stronger overall field than Season One.
To come to this conclusion, I compiled the wins and losses for each player that played in Season One and Season Two. A picture of the spreadsheet is spoilered below. + Show Spoiler +
Overall, the returning players went 322-278 (54%) in Season One, but only 229-243 (49%) in Season Two. That's a 5% lower winning rate. Same players, same format, less Koreans, yet a worse overall record. Even taking out the aforementioned Axslav and iNcontroL, it still comes out at a 4% drop. Of the 28 returning players, 10 improved their win%, one stayed the same, and 17 did worse.
There will always be variance from game to game so it's not too surprising when one player goes on a very nice/poor run that could skew individual results. However, the combined sample size should be enough to pass mathematical rigor. With near certainty, Season Two has indeed been a tougher regular season than Season One.
So don't fret Starcraft fans. While some could arguably say that the very top of NASL was weakened, the lineup overall was definitely strengthened. The upcoming championship playoffs should be a great exhibition of closely fought games.
Here's my hypothesis that is completely unresearched and unsupported: Koreans in NASL season one preformed less well than foreigner additions because of the timezone and server differences.
On November 30 2011 20:03 SimDawg wrote: That's interesting.
Here's my hypothesis that is completely unresearched and unsupported: Koreans in NASL season one preformed less well than foreigner additions because of the timezone and server differences.
So I think you might have something there.
Koreans in Season 1 performed really well though. Of the 10 who played in Season 1... only 2 failed to make the finals, if I'm not mistaken (Rainbow and Ace... and Ace was 1 game away from advancing).
While I agree overall the bottom/middle players of NASL season 2 are probably better than season 1, I wouldn't say for sure that the whole field was overall better. I'd be interested in some more data such as ELO comparisons and such, although I guess that'd be hard as well since most Koreans' foreign TLPD ELO's are a bit off.
I hope you're kidding with season 2 having a stronger field
Even though your statistics might "show" it on these results, there's also another factors that have to be taken into account.
For the players that performed lesser in season 2 than in season 1 you could also take into account all the other matches they played over the same time span. If they also showed a decline in those series it could very well be that some players are just slumping.
Also statistics could very well be influenced by what match-ups these persons had to play.
Therefor saying boldly that season 2 had a stronger field than in season 1 is in my opinion not valid. Maybe a bit more evenly matched, but in season 1 the differences between top and bottem were quite big.
If I have player A and B, with A being so much stronger than B that he would win 99 games out of 100 those two played, they would only make a one set (two games) difference in the scoreboard and hence in your statistic.
What I am saying is that some of the Koreans last season were incredibly good, however they are just one player per division!
The results don't take into consideration so many factors, some already explained by mithriel, but for instance, many of the returning players participated in tourney's that were alot less established back when NASL 1 was going on and so much more even excluding the "K factor;" what about patch changes and how that influenced the metagame? These factors don't even begin assessing player skill but they already render this evaluation naught.
I for one have seen many of the in-season games and for the most part they are EXTREMELY sub-par, with little to no 'wow-factor' and gives viewers almost NO incentive to tune in until playoffs as the games are pre-recorded and altogether boring.
Maybe wait 3-4 seasons (if it lasts that long) to crunch numbers and see if leaving out the best players in the world in your "global" SC2 tournament really does inspire some random influx of skill. I bet my money that it doesn't.
Stronger yes. The average player ability has risen in the sense of most of the garbage being removed. This has definitely resulted in more even games. Eg. Preslump MC was slightly better than Sen who is much much better than Incontrol. The gap between the top players are narrower than the differences around the bottom.
It is interesting to note that the "garbage" who remained, NASL managed to retain qxc, hasu and haypro, whose recent improvement and resurgence in other competitions truly underlines their improved score in NASL, which goes against the trend. While many can argue against their inclusion before s2, few can after their results of the past few weeks. A lucky fluke for NASL indeed.
That is a bold conclusion indeed. The saying, "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" kind of comes to mind here.
I’m no expert in statistics, but I would say that this exercise looks somewhat meaningless. 5% drop or increase is so small that it can be the result of players just having one or two “off days”. It may also depend other intangibles, such as did the players focus on practicing for these games or did they focus on others such as all the MLGs/IPLs/DreamHacks out there? What match-ups where played? Did the Koreans really care that much about this tournament? Etc.
All in all one can try to judge the competition by looking at the returning players but I believe it should be done after the season and by looking at their final placements. It is still not really a fair comparison due to the same reasons that others point out for the exercise you did but I believe it to be slightly more fair.
I enjoyed season2 way more. When I see 2 koreans playing I couldn't care less who wins, there is no storyline for me. But with 'foreigners' it's far more enjoyable too watch, and tbh the level of foreigners is getting really close to korea. Such tournaments only help to improve that because the players can get more motivated. They can fight koreans at the other 5milllion lans out there.
edit: Well I guess the chances of Puma or Hero winning are still pretty damn high ^^
Also from SoTG and what Tyler/Incontrol/Sheth said about NASL. The format was completely different from Season 1 to Season 2 due to scheduling issues. So in Season 1 where you had a player play one match a week, Season 2 they said they played several matches a day. So if you had a bad day in Season 1 you could hopefully bounce back next week with just one loss. This time around you had a bad day and you had 3-4 losses. Take into account being able to prepare for each opponent each week if you were so inclined(Season 1) and playing multiple matches a day(Season 2) left less room for that.
Completely different beasts AKA Season 1 and Season 2 are just not comparable.
Don't forget how long ago those matches were played...the whole NASL online season was probably long over by the time Axslav really hit the level of one of NA's best, beating Koreans and such. Obviously this is speculation but the team house would have only recently opened when a decent number of those matches were played.
That is a shady statistic. The bottom of the league is better in NASL 2, but the top is most likely not significantly better., if not worse.
1. Walkovers skew stats
Division A Not included. Reason stated in part 2.
Division B July w/o Whitera (Whitera -2, July +2) Sjow w/o Ensnare (Ensnare -2, Sjow +2) Whitera w/o Ensnare (Ensnare -4, Whitera +2)
Whitera - 13-8 in S1. 11-6 with w/o results removed. From 61.9% to 64.7%. (29% in S2)
Sjow - 13-8 in S1. 11-8 with w/o results removed. From 62% to 57.9%. (47% in S2) - (If Sjow had lost the w/o removed match he would have been 11-10 and 52.4% whichi s much closer to how he did in S2)
Division B break down. Sjow moves closer to his S2 %. Whitera's difference remains significantly different. Division C Strelok w/o Naniwa (Naniwa - 0, Strelok +2) Naniwa w/o Moonglade (Moonglade -2, Naniwa +2)
Strelok - 17-6 in S1. 15-6 with w/o results removed. From 73.9% to 71.4%. (67% in S2) Moonglade - 9-13 in S1. 9-11 with w/o results removed. 40.9% to 45%. (47% in S2)
Division C breakdown. Both players go closer to their S2 %s with w/os removed. Division D Bratok w/o MC (MC -0, Bratok +2) Select w/o Bratok (Bratok -2, Select +2) MC w/o Goody (Goody -2, MC +2)
Bratok - 10-12 in S1. 8-10 with w/o results removed. From 45% to 44.4%. (67% in S2) Select - 16-5 in S1. 14-5 with w/o results removed. From 76.2% to 73.7%. (56% in S2)
Division D breakdown. To be honest, there is not much difference in this group with w/os removed.
Division E Not included. Reason stated in Part 2.
2. Artosis/Painuser. To an extent, they were free wins throughout the season. Whether they played the matches out of whether they provided walkovers.
These 2 players (I won't argue whether they should have been in the season from the start) skewed the stats favorably for a lot of players due to how bad they were in the season.
In division A, you could argue 6 players on your list got 2 free wins.
If you take Artosis out of the group...
Sheth from 14-6 to 12-6. 70% to 66.6%.(59% in S2) Morrow from 15-8 to 13-8. 65% to 61.9%. (71% in S2) Kiwikaki from 13-6 to 11-6. 68% to 64.7%. (53% in S2) Fenix from 13-8 to 11-8. 62% to 57.9%. (31% in S2) Fenix was actually 41.7% if you ignore the w/os. TLO from 10-11 to 8-11. 48% to 42.1%. (33% in S2). Vibe from 8-12 to 6-12. 40% to 33.3%%. (39% in S2)
Only names which taking these games out takes it further away from the S2 % is Morrow and Vibe. Fenix still has a significant difference.
In division E, you could argue 6 players on your list got 2 free wins.
If you take PainUser out of the group...
Sen from 16-5 to 14-5. 76% to 73.7%. (71% in S2) Idra from 13-8 to 11-8. 62% to 57.9%. (71% in S2) Mana from 11-9 to 9-9. 55% to 50%. (60% in S2) Socke from 10-12 to 8-11. 45% to 42.1%.(44% in S2) Tyler from 8-13 to 6-13. 38% to 31.6%. (33% in S2) Cloud from 8-14 to 6-13. 36% to 31.6%. (47% in S2)
Only names which taking these games out takes it further away from the S2 % is Idra, Mana, and Cloud. (Socke difference is marginal) Overall with w/os and Artosis/PU results removed. 322-278 S1 - 54% 288-274 S1 ADJ - 51% 229-243 S2 - 49%
There isn't really a significant difference.
They just took the better players out of S1 and replaced them with players better than the returning ones on this list.
This doesn't mean that the replacing players are better than the ones they replaced. Just that they remain better than those on this list.
Also, some of the free wins towards the bottom were eliminated which shifted the weaker players to the bottom. (Though you could argue Softball was added as a free win.)
(I know this isn't exactly a clear cut statistic showing any significant proof. Of course, such a statistic cannot be done due to variance of players, balance changes, and other such changes. I just had some free time and wanted to show a possible explanation for the supposed difference in win %. 2% change in win rate would be insignificant.)
On November 30 2011 22:55 Corrik wrote: 2. Artosis/Painuser. To an extent, they were free wins throughout the season. Whether they played the matches out of whether they provided walkovers.
You mean whether they just left the player hanging, never appearing to the scheduled match in the first place, which lead to their Korean opponents getting up at 4am just to wait for several hours before getting the defwin?
On November 30 2011 22:55 Corrik wrote: 2. Artosis/Painuser. To an extent, they were free wins throughout the season. Whether they played the matches out of whether they provided walkovers.
You mean whether they just left the player hanging, never appearing to the scheduled match in the first place, which lead to their Korean opponents getting up at 4am just to wait for several hours before getting the defwin?
You can't just compare season 1 and season 2 stats of the returning players. You have to have factor in the non-NASL stats of these players over that time period as well. Like as not, many of the invited players in season 1 have been surpassed by the new talent that qualified in season 2, but such players were probably still newcomers to the scene in the time period around season 1. On an absolute level, the skill level has most likely increased in season 2, but the relative skill level of the competition to the skill level of the whole body of SC2 progamers is most likely worse.
There's also the problem with these stats that players don't stay the same in terms of ability. I mean... Incontrol was able to take the series off Whitera in season, he sure as hell won't be able to this season. TLO, no offense to the guy since he's awesome... just isn't as competitive as he was season 1, same can be said of other players like Moman.
I also wanna point out that there are people talking about how exciting the games are now that the Koreans are gone, but viewer numbers don't exactly agree that NASL2 is more popular by far as compared to viewer numbers in NASL1.
On November 30 2011 20:07 Talin wrote: Honestly, every time somebody makes conclusions about SC2 based on statistics I die a little inside. -_-
This is just one example of how statistics can always be (and often is) wrong.
I completely agree. As someone who does statistics for a living at a university, I sometimes just want to pull my hair out at the gross over simplification that happens with statistics on TL that leads to baseless conclusions.
Statistics calculations lose meaning when your starting assumptions can be questioned. In this case the base of your argument is the "returning players win ratio". And that can be questioned.
"overall" player quality I'd believe that. NASL 1 was based off of invites and some players just didn't deserve it and now the lower end has better players. But the top players are steam rolling through the tournament as if they should be in NASL code S and this is NASL code B.
On November 30 2011 20:42 cascades wrote: [...]It is interesting to note that the "garbage" who remained, NASL managed to retain qxc, hasu and haypro [...]
How can you put Hasu in this? Hasu was far away from elimination in both seasons and was never considered bad at any point of time. He got 5-4 in Season 1 and made it through the playoffs and in season he qualified directly for the grand final, beating the champion of season 1.
@topic: I share the opinion, which was stated before, the average skill level has maybe increased because of many bad players droping out, but the overall strengh was most certainly bigger in Season 1.
You can conclude that returning players did worse this season but I don't think you've accounted for enough outside variables to conclude that the flaying field is stronger. A big one would be who they played against; you can't have a high win rate in a group that plays among themselves.
On November 30 2011 20:07 Talin wrote: Honestly, every time somebody makes conclusions about SC2 based on statistics I die a little inside. -_-
This is just one example of how statistics can always be (and often is) wrong.
Statistics were not wrong, their interpretation was a bit too optimistic though because it didn't take into account interdependencies between events. f.e., groups were different, players improved, latency, etc.
I mean yeah you could use your statistics and say that they prove that the players are now in a tougher competition, but they could simply also mean that these players have gotten worse since season 1.
I'm not saying it's either one or the other, but I don't think you could make the assumptions you are
You can't draw these conclusions from these data and say they are robust. I am sure you are aware that this is only an interpretation that by no means holds statistical significance. It includes so much noise and the factor cannot simply be determined to be the player field.
On November 30 2011 20:07 Talin wrote: Honestly, every time somebody makes conclusions about SC2 based on statistics I die a little inside. -_-
This is just one example of how statistics can always be (and often is) wrong.
Just had to comment on this. Statistics are not wrong, its how you interpret them. Don't blame the math for an interpretation that you think is 'invalid'. Its difficult to predict games and with a game was volitle as starcraft its difficult to interpret the statistics.
You're trying to maintain that the statistics from a single tournament represent the entire scene but that's clearly not the starcraft scene is composed of MUCH MUCH more than just NASL. For example, if you take a look at the mlg pool play brackets, machine and incontrol were consistently last in the mid-late mlg events while axslav and strifecro failed to reach the championship bracket in the events they did participate in.
The problem is that the players will always either overperform or underperform their potential. By selecting the winners from Season 1 you are biasing your results towards players that overperformed. This is why in any study that shows promise, follow up studies usually show a regression towards the mean, i.e. less impressive results. So it is not surprising that the players that had a slight winning edge in season 1 had a worse performance in season 2. Look at any sport, the top players/teams in any year are almost always closer to average or even below average the next year.
A 5% difference in a sample size this small means diddly, for starters. Not to mention every other factor besides the players competing like... the rested state of all the players at the time of their matches or the shift in the game. Look at Zergs 6 months ago. They were bemoaning the state of ZvP... and then they figured out how do scary pressure builds while getting 70 drones and now they win loads against the current protoss builds. It sounds like you put some work into this, but it doesn't sound like you've looked at it from all the angles.
I like the OP takes one article to task for making questionable conclusions off of relatively scanty data, and then he does the exact same thing in an article he writes. Let's ignore the fact that overall everyone played less games this season, individual player skill across the board has heavily fluctuated between S1 and S2 for a host of reasons, the abundance of S1 players who were literally free wins, etc.etc.
On November 30 2011 21:14 Jakkerr wrote: I enjoyed season2 way more. When I see 2 koreans playing I couldn't care less who wins, there is no storyline for me. But with 'foreigners' it's far more enjoyable too watch, and tbh the level of foreigners is getting really close to korea. Such tournaments only help to improve that because the players can get more motivated. They can fight koreans at the other 5milllion lans out there.
edit: Well I guess the chances of Puma or Hero winning are still pretty damn high ^^
Storyline? Oh there is a storyline for you watching say Sen vs Naniwa? All because they are non korean huh?
On November 30 2011 21:14 Jakkerr wrote: I enjoyed season2 way more. When I see 2 koreans playing I couldn't care less who wins, there is no storyline for me. But with 'foreigners' it's far more enjoyable too watch, and tbh the level of foreigners is getting really close to korea. Such tournaments only help to improve that because the players can get more motivated. They can fight koreans at the other 5milllion lans out there.
edit: Well I guess the chances of Puma or Hero winning are still pretty damn high ^^
Storyline? Oh there is a storyline for you watching say Sen vs Naniwa? All because they are non korean huh?
what a dumb statement.
Gap is really close now you say? not even close.
After examining the statistics and evidence that you supplied with your compelling, elaborate argument, I am forced to agree, obviously.
On November 30 2011 21:14 Jakkerr wrote: I enjoyed season2 way more. When I see 2 koreans playing I couldn't care less who wins, there is no storyline for me. But with 'foreigners' it's far more enjoyable too watch, and tbh the level of foreigners is getting really close to korea. Such tournaments only help to improve that because the players can get more motivated. They can fight koreans at the other 5milllion lans out there.
edit: Well I guess the chances of Puma or Hero winning are still pretty damn high ^^
Storyline? Oh there is a storyline for you watching say Sen vs Naniwa? All because they are non korean huh?
what a dumb statement.
Gap is really close now you say? not even close.
After examining the statistics and evidence that you supplied with your compelling, elaborate argument, I am forced to agree, obviously.
what statistic would i need to provide for my statement? exacty none.
He said it's more enjoyable watching 2 non koreans play simply because they are non koreans.
that makes alot of sense huh?
Yea I'll take watching say puma vs hero anyday over two much lesser skilled non korean players.
I don't need statistic to say the gap isn't closing. Look at the results all around. Look at last MLG, look at last dreamhack.
Yea sure some foreigners have won some tournaments this past month, that's inevitable, but that doesn't mean the gap is closing and those foreigners that can take games away from koreans are very very few. Only a handful.
On November 30 2011 21:14 Jakkerr wrote: I enjoyed season2 way more. When I see 2 koreans playing I couldn't care less who wins, there is no storyline for me. But with 'foreigners' it's far more enjoyable too watch, and tbh the level of foreigners is getting really close to korea. Such tournaments only help to improve that because the players can get more motivated. They can fight koreans at the other 5milllion lans out there.
edit: Well I guess the chances of Puma or Hero winning are still pretty damn high ^^
Storyline? Oh there is a storyline for you watching say Sen vs Naniwa? All because they are non korean huh?
what a dumb statement.
Gap is really close now you say? not even close.
After examining the statistics and evidence that you supplied with your compelling, elaborate argument, I am forced to agree, obviously.
what statistic would i need to provide for my statement? exacty none.
He said it's more enjoyable watching 2 non koreans play simply because they are non koreans.
that makes alot of sense huh?
Yea I'll take watching say puma vs hero anyday over two much lesser skilled non korean players.
I don't need statistic to say the gap isn't closing. Look at the results all around. Look at last MLG, look at last dreamhack.
Yea sure some foreigners have won some tournaments this past month, that's inevitable, but that doesn't mean the gap is closing and those foreigners that can take games away from koreans are very very few. Only a handful.
And aside from Stephano almost all (or all?) of them got good by training lots of time in Korea. I agree with you, although i don't mind watching foreigners sometimes and although i didn't watch any of the NASL season i probably will watch the finals if i find the time.
Whats your point? What the hell does EG have to do with NASL?
You don't know what your talking about, you cant base all these accusations off such little data. Do you know how many tournaments you bomb before you are successful? Do you know how hard it is when every single opponent is very feared by everyone.
Personally I'm glad the Koreans are gone, I'd enjoy watching some foreigners play. I already see the Kor's play enough as it is.
a lot of the people in the second season of the NASL are there because they performed well in the first season, if the players that did badly in the first season were in the second season instead I would think that the win rates would be going up.
Just wondering if you've ever taken a statistics course and if you have, how could you come to a conclusion like this? You basically just said people who returned from season 1 did worse in season 2, therefore the field is stronger in season 2. Maybe the players from season 1 just got weaker? Can you expand on your conclusion so it doesn't seem as ridiculous?
Just because EG's "lower tier" isn't doing well, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's *because of* the team house. It just means that their lower tier isn't very good. Dress a monkey in a suit and its still a monkey.
I think it's difficult to deny that both Idra and Demuslim have posted *much* better results after moving into the teamhouse. I'm a big Demuslim fan so I watch his stream a ton, and it's actually quite shocking how much his play has dropped off after being just a month away from the house. And with all the flying around Huk does, I'm sure having a home base in NA is very helpful.
A team house is not going to turn an Axslav or an Incontrol into a tournament winner. But it is going to turn already talented players such as Idra, Huk, Puma, and Demuslim into potential tournament winners.
On November 30 2011 21:14 Jakkerr wrote: I enjoyed season2 way more. When I see 2 koreans playing I couldn't care less who wins, there is no storyline for me. But with 'foreigners' it's far more enjoyable too watch, and tbh the level of foreigners is getting really close to korea. Such tournaments only help to improve that because the players can get more motivated. They can fight koreans at the other 5milllion lans out there.
edit: Well I guess the chances of Puma or Hero winning are still pretty damn high ^^
Storyline? Oh there is a storyline for you watching say Sen vs Naniwa? All because they are non korean huh?
what a dumb statement.
Gap is really close now you say? not even close.
After examining the statistics and evidence that you supplied with your compelling, elaborate argument, I am forced to agree, obviously.
what statistic would i need to provide for my statement? exacty none.
He said it's more enjoyable watching 2 non koreans play simply because they are non koreans.
that makes alot of sense huh?
Yea I'll take watching say puma vs hero anyday over two much lesser skilled non korean players.
I don't need statistic to say the gap isn't closing. Look at the results all around. Look at last MLG, look at last dreamhack.
Yea sure some foreigners have won some tournaments this past month, that's inevitable, but that doesn't mean the gap is closing and those foreigners that can take games away from koreans are very very few. Only a handful.
And aside from Stephano almost all (or all?) of them got good by training lots of time in Korea. I agree with you, although i don't mind watching foreigners sometimes and although i didn't watch any of the NASL season i probably will watch the finals if i find the time.
don't get me wrong, I love watching non foreigners play if they are good. like say Sen or naniwa etc
my problem with his statement was that he said 2 koreans playing has no drama....
what does that even mean? So if I watch incontrol vs qxc, there's some inherent drama apparently because they are not korean
Most Koreans had lag when they played, so it makes sense that returning players had a worse win% as they aren't playing people with a significant handicap. I don't think you can think much past this.
On November 30 2011 21:14 Jakkerr wrote: I enjoyed season2 way more. When I see 2 koreans playing I couldn't care less who wins, there is no storyline for me. But with 'foreigners' it's far more enjoyable too watch, and tbh the level of foreigners is getting really close to korea. Such tournaments only help to improve that because the players can get more motivated. They can fight koreans at the other 5milllion lans out there.
edit: Well I guess the chances of Puma or Hero winning are still pretty damn high ^^
Storyline? Oh there is a storyline for you watching say Sen vs Naniwa? All because they are non korean huh?
what a dumb statement.
Gap is really close now you say? not even close.
After examining the statistics and evidence that you supplied with your compelling, elaborate argument, I am forced to agree, obviously.
what statistic would i need to provide for my statement? exacty none.
He said it's more enjoyable watching 2 non koreans play simply because they are non koreans.
that makes alot of sense huh?
Yea I'll take watching say puma vs hero anyday over two much lesser skilled non korean players.
I don't need statistic to say the gap isn't closing. Look at the results all around. Look at last MLG, look at last dreamhack.
Yea sure some foreigners have won some tournaments this past month, that's inevitable, but that doesn't mean the gap is closing and those foreigners that can take games away from koreans are very very few. Only a handful.
And aside from Stephano almost all (or all?) of them got good by training lots of time in Korea. I agree with you, although i don't mind watching foreigners sometimes and although i didn't watch any of the NASL season i probably will watch the finals if i find the time.
don't get me wrong, I love watching non foreigners play if they are good. like say Sen or naniwa etc
my problem with his statement was that he said 2 koreans playing has no drama....
what does that even mean? So if I watch incontrol vs qxc, there's some inherent drama apparently because they are not korean
I also have a problem with his statement. Clearly this guy has never seen any MVP vs Nestea matches. A big rivalry is brewing between them even though they're on the same team. The only foreign "drama" I know about is between Idra and Cruncher, but what else is there? I personally think Koreans have more of a storyline because they've pretty much given up everything to be a progamer and most of them have immense pressure to win. I have yet to see a foreigner cry after winning/losing a big match. I've seen tons of Koreans do it
Pretty sick final list, forgot nasl even existed after the whole korean drama pre-season. Hopefully the finals go over well and we get some great games out f it.
On November 30 2011 21:14 Jakkerr wrote: I enjoyed season2 way more. When I see 2 koreans playing I couldn't care less who wins, there is no storyline for me. But with 'foreigners' it's far more enjoyable too watch, and tbh the level of foreigners is getting really close to korea. Such tournaments only help to improve that because the players can get more motivated. They can fight koreans at the other 5milllion lans out there.
edit: Well I guess the chances of Puma or Hero winning are still pretty damn high ^^
Storyline? Oh there is a storyline for you watching say Sen vs Naniwa? All because they are non korean huh?
what a dumb statement.
Gap is really close now you say? not even close.
After examining the statistics and evidence that you supplied with your compelling, elaborate argument, I am forced to agree, obviously.
what statistic would i need to provide for my statement? exacty none.
He said it's more enjoyable watching 2 non koreans play simply because they are non koreans.
that makes alot of sense huh?
Yea I'll take watching say puma vs hero anyday over two much lesser skilled non korean players.
I don't need statistic to say the gap isn't closing. Look at the results all around. Look at last MLG, look at last dreamhack.
Yea sure some foreigners have won some tournaments this past month, that's inevitable, but that doesn't mean the gap is closing and those foreigners that can take games away from koreans are very very few. Only a handful.
And aside from Stephano almost all (or all?) of them got good by training lots of time in Korea. I agree with you, although i don't mind watching foreigners sometimes and although i didn't watch any of the NASL season i probably will watch the finals if i find the time.
don't get me wrong, I love watching non foreigners play if they are good. like say Sen or naniwa etc
my problem with his statement was that he said 2 koreans playing has no drama....
what does that even mean? So if I watch incontrol vs qxc, there's some inherent drama apparently because they are not korean
I also have a problem with his statement. Clearly this guy has never seen any MVP vs Nestea matches. A big rivalry is brewing between them even though they're on the same team. The only foreign "drama" I know about is between Idra and Cruncher, but what else is there? I personally think Koreans have more of a storyline because they've pretty much given up everything to be a progamer and most of them have immense pressure to win. I have yet to see a foreigner cry after winning/losing a big match. I've seen tons of Koreans do it
Some people obviously watch SC2 based on the skin color of the players playing. I don't see why you guys keep giving these people the time of day and replying to them.
I watched a lot of season 1 due to the koreans, but watched none of season 2 apart from a few hero games. Don't plan to watch the finals either except for hero's games. I really don't know how NASL is making money or getting any return on this with the low stream numbers, the huge expense they put into the finals event and the large prize pool.
On December 01 2011 02:38 awu25 wrote: Just wondering if you've ever taken a statistics course and if you have, how could you come to a conclusion like this? You basically just said people who returned from season 1 did worse in season 2, therefore the field is stronger in season 2. Maybe the players from season 1 just got weaker? Can you expand on your conclusion so it doesn't seem as ridiculous?
He just didn't take into account that the bottom of the field from Season 1 was removed. If you replayed Season 1 with the players on that list plus the Koreans/Naniwa/Huk/Demuslim, the records of those players on those list obviously trend downwards.
I can't comment on all of the players that participated in season 1 and 2 of NASL as I only watch the Zerg games but your stats assume that the players who participated in both seasons stayed as good or got better than they were in season 1 which after watching many of the NASL VODS does not appear to be the case. If you watch the Idra vods in season 2 and then watch the Idra vods in season 1 it would appear Idra has gotten worse at the game in between seasons. His games vs Socke were horrible in season 2 I had to turn them off they were that bad especially because I know he can play so much better. The same goes for Sheth, Sen and Ret. There overall game play was a lot more solid season one than in season two. Remember season 1 when Sen played Mana? Mana pushed out with a decent sized deathball which looked like it would crush sen but with great positioning and micro sen crushed the Mana with one of the most amazing surrounds I've ever seen a Zerg pull off yet in season 2 we see nothing quite as amazing out of Sen. It's as if a lot of the top contenders in season 1 were playing a lot worse in season 2.
Imagine if all of a sudden marineking was horrible at stutter stepping with marines everyone would be like WTF?! Well that's how I feel when I watch NASL season 2 zergs play from the previous performance in season 1.
On November 30 2011 21:14 Jakkerr wrote: I enjoyed season2 way more. When I see 2 koreans playing I couldn't care less who wins, there is no storyline for me. But with 'foreigners' it's far more enjoyable too watch, and tbh the level of foreigners is getting really close to korea. Such tournaments only help to improve that because the players can get more motivated. They can fight koreans at the other 5milllion lans out there.
edit: Well I guess the chances of Puma or Hero winning are still pretty damn high ^^
Storyline? Oh there is a storyline for you watching say Sen vs Naniwa? All because they are non korean huh?
what a dumb statement.
Gap is really close now you say? not even close.
After examining the statistics and evidence that you supplied with your compelling, elaborate argument, I am forced to agree, obviously.
what statistic would i need to provide for my statement? exacty none.
He said it's more enjoyable watching 2 non koreans play simply because they are non koreans.
that makes alot of sense huh?
Yea I'll take watching say puma vs hero anyday over two much lesser skilled non korean players.
I don't need statistic to say the gap isn't closing. Look at the results all around. Look at last MLG, look at last dreamhack.
Yea sure some foreigners have won some tournaments this past month, that's inevitable, but that doesn't mean the gap is closing and those foreigners that can take games away from koreans are very very few. Only a handful.
And aside from Stephano almost all (or all?) of them got good by training lots of time in Korea. I agree with you, although i don't mind watching foreigners sometimes and although i didn't watch any of the NASL season i probably will watch the finals if i find the time.
don't get me wrong, I love watching non foreigners play if they are good. like say Sen or naniwa etc
my problem with his statement was that he said 2 koreans playing has no drama....
what does that even mean? So if I watch incontrol vs qxc, there's some inherent drama apparently because they are not korean
I also have a problem with his statement. Clearly this guy has never seen any MVP vs Nestea matches. A big rivalry is brewing between them even though they're on the same team. The only foreign "drama" I know about is between Idra and Cruncher, but what else is there? I personally think Koreans have more of a storyline because they've pretty much given up everything to be a progamer and most of them have immense pressure to win. I have yet to see a foreigner cry after winning/losing a big match. I've seen tons of Koreans do it
Some people obviously watch SC2 based on the skin color of the players playing. I don't see why you guys keep giving these people the time of day and replying to them.
You don't have to be a racist to prefer watching foreigners play over Koreans.
On November 30 2011 21:14 Jakkerr wrote: I enjoyed season2 way more. When I see 2 koreans playing I couldn't care less who wins, there is no storyline for me. But with 'foreigners' it's far more enjoyable too watch, and tbh the level of foreigners is getting really close to korea. Such tournaments only help to improve that because the players can get more motivated. They can fight koreans at the other 5milllion lans out there.
edit: Well I guess the chances of Puma or Hero winning are still pretty damn high ^^
Storyline? Oh there is a storyline for you watching say Sen vs Naniwa? All because they are non korean huh?
what a dumb statement.
Gap is really close now you say? not even close.
After examining the statistics and evidence that you supplied with your compelling, elaborate argument, I am forced to agree, obviously.
what statistic would i need to provide for my statement? exacty none.
He said it's more enjoyable watching 2 non koreans play simply because they are non koreans.
that makes alot of sense huh?
Yea I'll take watching say puma vs hero anyday over two much lesser skilled non korean players.
I don't need statistic to say the gap isn't closing. Look at the results all around. Look at last MLG, look at last dreamhack.
Yea sure some foreigners have won some tournaments this past month, that's inevitable, but that doesn't mean the gap is closing and those foreigners that can take games away from koreans are very very few. Only a handful.
And aside from Stephano almost all (or all?) of them got good by training lots of time in Korea. I agree with you, although i don't mind watching foreigners sometimes and although i didn't watch any of the NASL season i probably will watch the finals if i find the time.
don't get me wrong, I love watching non foreigners play if they are good. like say Sen or naniwa etc
my problem with his statement was that he said 2 koreans playing has no drama....
what does that even mean? So if I watch incontrol vs qxc, there's some inherent drama apparently because they are not korean
I also have a problem with his statement. Clearly this guy has never seen any MVP vs Nestea matches. A big rivalry is brewing between them even though they're on the same team. The only foreign "drama" I know about is between Idra and Cruncher, but what else is there? I personally think Koreans have more of a storyline because they've pretty much given up everything to be a progamer and most of them have immense pressure to win. I have yet to see a foreigner cry after winning/losing a big match. I've seen tons of Koreans do it
Some people obviously watch SC2 based on the skin color of the players playing. I don't see why you guys keep giving these people the time of day and replying to them.
You don't have to be a racist to prefer watching foreigners play over Koreans.
Well its in the same direction tough, just not the same lvl.
EPT![[image loading]](http://starcraft.sageground.com/images/NASLS1vS2.jpg)
