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On November 26 2011 13:29 Packawana wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 12:45 DarQraven wrote:On November 26 2011 12:22 Noak3 wrote:
The people saying that the nicknames turns off a lot of casual viewers do have a point, though. I tried to show some of my family what Starcraft is this thanksgiving and a lot of them thought that the nicknames were stupid, and it made competitive gaming seem a lot more childish to them. And this is a problem why? How about we try to attract people that are actually interested and somewhat involved in gaming as opposed to your gran, your aunt the knitting fan, some random football fans and a guy who's never played a game in his life? You know, try and make e-sports as interesting and appealing for the people it is targeted at?I really don't understand why people seem to think that we must market e-sports for the masses. Why? So we can have commercial breaks during matches as well? So we can casually talk about Starcraft during coffee breaks with anyone at the office that doesn't actually know shit about the game and has semi-watched a game on TV once? I'm all for e-sports expanding, but let's expand where there actually is room for us instead of trying to change every single aspect of the scene that might be unattractive to *random demographic* and lose everything e-sports is in the process. If we're going to follow you're logic, it's practically saying, "Hey, let's wait till someone comes to us." No, that's not how you grow an industry. The spirit of e-sports will remain the same as so long as people continue to play for the sake of the game, but in terms of growing e-sports as in industry, you have to appeal to the masses. A lot of people want to see this expand to where it becomes something to talk about during office-break times. You know why? Because it shows how legitimate e-sports really is. Tell me, would you rather travel 30 miles to find an e-cafe or be able to watch MLG at your local bar and enjoy it with your friends? The way we view the scene must change if we want e-sports to expand. Otherwise, it won't be e-sports anymore. It'll be just a game. That being said, handles/nicknames have been a relatively important part of the game since day one. But, it would be nice to throw in the actual name, then the nickname. (Kinda like they do announcing for wrestling/boxing matches where there are nicknames)
OR, we could grow a pair and stop giving a damn what non-gamers think about e-sports. They are people who are irrelevant to the day-to-day of SC2 and progaming.
I love e-sports and gaming in general, but I'm also a realist. 90% of the people I know will not watch other people play videogames, period. Whether or not they use nicknames or real names, have sponsors or not, BM or not, play fifa/madden type games or high-fantasy strategy games/MMO's ... it doesn't matter. They simply aren't into gaming, let alone competitive gaming, and nothing is going to change that. Just like the majority of self-identifying gamers typically aren't the biggest physical sports guys, or how some people read books instead of watch TV, while others go see a play. It's a different demographic with different interests, lifestyle, likes/dislikes, opinions and preferred ways to spend their afternoons. Now, we could completely eliminate gaming culture from the phenomenon of e-sports, in an attempt to make it into an easily digestible mass-produced and socially inconspicuous husk of what it used to be, while naïvely believing that we can get the entire world to love SC2, or...
Wanna watch Sc2 in a sports bar? Just do it and do not even pay attention to whether or not random bystanders think your sport of choice is legitimate. Grow some damn balls. When I read this thread, most of what I see is disguised "I wanna make SC2 look serious because someone was dismissive of it once and now I feel like I have to prove myself."
The only reason you have to drive 30 miles to get to a barcraft now is because the amount of organized barcrafts are relatively low still and because - surprise, smallish towns or cities won't have them due to an absense of SC2-watching people that aren't already going to a bigger event.
"But attracting more viewers will improve that situation, and this is only possible by pandering to the masses!"
False. Even if we change all the nicknames and stages/venues, then change the game to have middle eastern versus western instead of earthlings versus bugs versus aliens - most of the population simply will not spend their evening watching videogames. Hell, most of them will not even play games themselves.
Some gamers will.
Our goal, for those who want to expand e-sports, is to change "some gamers" to "a lot of gamers". Not "everyone and their sister, who aren't actually into videogames at all".
These are people who know what games are like, what it feels like to get that one crucial kill at the right time. They know first hand how unforgivingly difficult games can be. They know what a rush close games can offer, and have only to discover what the tournament scene can offer them.
Wanna expand e-sports? Expand there. Your 50-year old uncle probably isn't interested.
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i think it's a carryover from the bw days that can't be stopped now
remember, back in "the day" the only thing most of us could read on the vods were the ids of the players, and that was it
some TL guys could read korean but not many
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I prefer real names and appreciate Tyler's change. Nicknames for primary names are like the XFL, and we all know where that went...
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On November 26 2011 14:21 DarQraven wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 13:29 Packawana wrote:On November 26 2011 12:45 DarQraven wrote:On November 26 2011 12:22 Noak3 wrote:
The people saying that the nicknames turns off a lot of casual viewers do have a point, though. I tried to show some of my family what Starcraft is this thanksgiving and a lot of them thought that the nicknames were stupid, and it made competitive gaming seem a lot more childish to them. And this is a problem why? How about we try to attract people that are actually interested and somewhat involved in gaming as opposed to your gran, your aunt the knitting fan, some random football fans and a guy who's never played a game in his life? You know, try and make e-sports as interesting and appealing for the people it is targeted at?I really don't understand why people seem to think that we must market e-sports for the masses. Why? So we can have commercial breaks during matches as well? So we can casually talk about Starcraft during coffee breaks with anyone at the office that doesn't actually know shit about the game and has semi-watched a game on TV once? I'm all for e-sports expanding, but let's expand where there actually is room for us instead of trying to change every single aspect of the scene that might be unattractive to *random demographic* and lose everything e-sports is in the process. If we're going to follow you're logic, it's practically saying, "Hey, let's wait till someone comes to us." No, that's not how you grow an industry. The spirit of e-sports will remain the same as so long as people continue to play for the sake of the game, but in terms of growing e-sports as in industry, you have to appeal to the masses. A lot of people want to see this expand to where it becomes something to talk about during office-break times. You know why? Because it shows how legitimate e-sports really is. Tell me, would you rather travel 30 miles to find an e-cafe or be able to watch MLG at your local bar and enjoy it with your friends? The way we view the scene must change if we want e-sports to expand. Otherwise, it won't be e-sports anymore. It'll be just a game. That being said, handles/nicknames have been a relatively important part of the game since day one. But, it would be nice to throw in the actual name, then the nickname. (Kinda like they do announcing for wrestling/boxing matches where there are nicknames) OR, we could grow a pair and stop giving a damn what non-gamers think about e-sports. They are people who are irrelevant to the day-to-day of SC2 and progaming. I love e-sports and gaming in general, but I'm also a realist. 90% of the people I know will not watch other people play videogames, period. Whether or not they use nicknames or real names, have sponsors or not, BM or not, play fifa/madden type games or high-fantasy strategy games/MMO's ... it doesn't matter. They simply aren't into gaming, let alone competitive gaming, and nothing is going to change that. Just like the majority of self-identifying gamers typically aren't the biggest physical sports guys, or how some people read books instead of watch TV, while others go see a play. It's a different demographic with different interests, lifestyle, likes/dislikes, opinions and preferred ways to spend their afternoons. Now, we could completely eliminate gaming culture from the phenomenon of e-sports, in an attempt to make it into an easily digestible mass-produced and socially inconspicuous husk of what it used to be, while naïvely believing that we can get the entire world to love SC2, or... Wanna watch Sc2 in a sports bar? Just do it and do not even pay attention to whether or not random bystanders think your sport of choice is legitimate. Grow some damn balls. When I read this thread, most of what I see is disguised "I wanna make SC2 look serious because someone was dismissive of it once and now I feel like I have to prove myself."The only reason you have to drive 30 miles to get to a barcraft now is because the amount of organized barcrafts are relatively low still and because - surprise, smallish towns or cities won't have them due to an absense of SC2-watching people that aren't already going to a bigger event. "But attracting more viewers will improve that situation, and this is only possible by pandering to the masses!" False. Even if we change all the nicknames and stages/venues, then change the game to have middle eastern versus western instead of earthlings versus bugs versus aliens - most of the population simply will not spend their evening watching videogames. Hell, most of them will not even play games themselves. Some gamers will. Our goal, for those who want to expand e-sports, is to change "some gamers" to "a lot of gamers". Not "everyone and their sister, who aren't actually into videogames at all". These are people who know what games are like, what it feels like to get that one crucial kill at the right time. They know first hand how unforgivingly difficult games can be. They know what a rush close games can offer, and have only to discover what the tournament scene can offer them. Wanna expand e-sports? Expand there. Your 50-year old uncle probably isn't interested.
Who are you to say that this is our goal? Do you speak for the leaders of the industries, for those who run Complexity or EG or the pundits that speak on Live on Three or State of the Game? I don't think so.
Now why is it that people find it so damn cool when an interview with Sean Plott shows up on Forbes or when ESPN considered putting MLG on television? Because it gets to the masses. Because more and more and more people will see it.
To expand the idea of "some gamers" to "a lot of gamers" can be reached through exposure to the masses. There are people from every corner of the world that have never blinked an eye at e-sports that may turn their heads and then say "Whoa, this is cool."
Let's not dilly-dally for just a small prize, but let's go for a jackpot. By continuing the idea that "most of the population will not spend their evening watching videogames" and living by that sentiment is absurd -- I highly doubt that people expected that some ridiculous game that involved throwing a ball into some baskets, or some corrupted form of rugby would be watched nationwide was ever expected.
But you know what? It happened because people were ambitious enough to bring it to the masses. And yes, that does mean having to turn it a bit mainstream as well.
Can you honestly say that the people who play basketball or football don't have the spirit of the sport in them? It's going to be the same with e-sports, even if it's brought to the masses, even if there have to be some sacrifices to make it look "legitimate." The spirit will always be there as long as there are players enjoying the game.
There is a reason why you have people on State of the Game saying that players need to learn how to talk or need to be able to relate to the fans. Why? Because the world is watching, and this industry is growing. And the world is just waiting to be thrown a bone in order to drag them into this wonderful thing we all enjoy.
Yes, we can forget what everyone else thinks and accept that things won't change. But that's not smart business sense. It never is, never was.
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i just want one day someone named ASDFJLKSDHA or ilkepen15 becomes pro then we'll realize how dumb and unprofessional nicknames in competitions are lol
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On November 26 2011 14:49 Malgrif wrote:
i just want one day someone named ASDFJLKSDHA or ilkepen15 becomes pro then we'll realize how dumb and unprofessional nicknames in competitions are lol
More like how dumb examples you used to try and make your point.
Also, are people really saying that the XFL failed because of the nicknames?
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On November 26 2011 14:42 Packawana wrote:
See above
I find it ironic that you talk of good business sense, then suggest grand market takeover plans without any regard for target demographics at all. Defining a solid demographic is step one of a business plan.
It's like a company making a product, then defining it's customer base as "EVERYONE!!!!:D ". Even a company as obviously unoffensive and ingrained in society like Coca Cola/Pepsi/whatever doesn't have the luxury of meeting that condition.
Yes, you could be overly optimistic like that. However, that also results in not being able to make any sensible decisions based on your customer base or even having an optimum decision at all anymore. (See: the multiplatform games debate that you probably are familiar with.)
You are bound to produce a bland lowest-common-denominator product that many people will be mildly interested in, at the cost of putting off a lot of people that would otherwise be heavily involved with it and form a solid customer base for years to come.
Is that worth it to you?
Where you and I disagree, I think, is in how big the group called gamers actually is. Look at today's youth. The majority of them grew up playing videogames. Should we tailor to them, try and convert them to e-sports, as I'm suggesting, or should we throw everything that could possibly be off-putting about e-sports out the window in an attempt to attract viewers that are about as far removed from gaming as possible? To get people who don't have any connection or click with games at all, to suddenly watch teens play a game they don't understand?
The reason football and other sports are as popular as they are is because people grew up with them, it was a gradual process, not a focused attempt to throw every bit of character the sport had out the window. The Super Bowl wasn't started on day 1 of the NFL's existence, or because they made people stop using nicknames.
People played those games when they were young, their parents maybe took them to a game at times, they watched world cups together or listened to the casts on the radio. Physical sports were pretty much the main source of entertainment and idols for generations of kids.
Guess what? Today's youth / teen has the same thing with games. They just need to be introduced to the idea of watching them as well. That is going to take some advertising and bringing the gospel of e-sports, making them not feel like a weirdo for doing it among their gamer peers.
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To give an example, I currently work as a programmer at a game development firm. Most if not all of my colleagues are gamers or have at least fundamentally accepted gaming as a valid pastime.
However, 4 out of 5 will still give you a funny look when you mention going to a barcraft and watching tournaments there. They might soften up after some explanation, but will still find the idea a bit strange or at least something that they would not do of their own accord.
These are gamers. Some of them play a whole lot. A couple clocked more than 40 hours in Skyrim in the first couple of days after release. Yet they are not accustomed to e-sports and find it an alien concept. If a group as heavily entangled with games as game developers is still as foreign to the e-sports scene as they are, how realistic do you think it is to try and market e-sports to non-gamers?
My suggestion (and I'll let slip the poor form of argument where you questioned my authority to take a position based on a figure of speech for now) is that we convert gamers to e-sports first instead of people that have nothing to do with it. There are a lot of gamers out there that have never heard of e-sports or find it a strange concept. Yet, these people are the most likely to be interested - they can relate. They know gamer culture, they don't see games as a time-waster for kids, they are often quite competitive, and they can play SC2 as well to get even more into the game - a connect that non-gamers will not be able to make.
This is not "a small prize" as you say. This is a HUGE market. Videogames are, I believe, the most profitable entertainment industry bar none. It is also a realistic market, one that we can actually hope to capture without having to throw the entire scene on its rear end.
Will some things have to be changed? Perhaps. The player media training you speak of is a very unintrusive yet effective way to drop the image of socially awkward gamers, while also significantly increasing the quality of SC2 interviews. Players being penalized for BM is another (however, look at the amount of smack talking and sometimes blatant dirty play in NFL and NHL...).
However, none of these things are changes that touch the core of e-sports. "Players playing for the sake of the game" is not e-sports. That + "the adoring fans watching" = e-sports. Alienating those fans will kill it.
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You know, DarQraven has hit it right on the spot - The chances of us being able to convert non-gamers into eSport lovers is way too small. We're better off nurturing gamers into eSport lovers. A gamer would be able to relate to eSports in a better and faster way than most non-gamers will. That's the matter of fact. If we're going to spend too much time and effort trying to convert a part of the population which may be un-receptive to gaming in general, wouldn't it be more worth the effort to appeal to people who already 'get' gaming and try to get them to watch eSports?
If so, then the idea of a 'nickname' or 'game handle' as a way of addressing someone shouldn't be as far fetched isn't it? lol
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This has nothing to do with BW. Nothing to do with StarCraft. Nothing to do with Korea. Nothing to do with anything other than gaming culture right from the start. Gamers had nicknames since forever and that's it.
Why have you signed up with a nick here instead of whatever you are called IRL?
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On November 23 2011 11:28 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 08:03 Laurence wrote:
I've been saying this to my SC buddies for ages. I don't see any use in Nicknames, we use real names when speaking about players. I'm not sure who we is, but it definitely includes yourself so... you're saying that when Leenock won MLG Providence you were saying "Lee Dong Nyung just won MLG!" instead of "Leenock won MLG"? I really doubt that, but I don't know why you would lie just to make your point so... that seems very uncommon, and it is more difficult to remember Korean names as opposed to English sounding names.
It's not so difficult if you're from a korean family
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On December 01 2011 05:13 Laurence wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 11:28 Chicane wrote:On November 23 2011 08:03 Laurence wrote:
I've been saying this to my SC buddies for ages. I don't see any use in Nicknames, we use real names when speaking about players. I'm not sure who we is, but it definitely includes yourself so... you're saying that when Leenock won MLG Providence you were saying "Lee Dong Nyung just won MLG!" instead of "Leenock won MLG"? I really doubt that, but I don't know why you would lie just to make your point so... that seems very uncommon, and it is more difficult to remember Korean names as opposed to English sounding names. It's not so difficult if you're from a korean family
Which is pretty much the minority (and should be, considering it's supposed to be a global game) of the SC2 audience, right?
My girlfriend and even my mom knows plenty of the big names by their IDs (Boxer, IdrA, HuK, Day[9], etc.), and they can connect those names to the names that appear on my monitor when I watch the pros play.
We don't refer to pro sports players by their nicknames because:
1. The vast majority of them don't have nicknames or alternate IDs
2. The names featured on their jerseys and uniforms are their regular names, not nicknames.
For any StarCraft pro-gamer who uses his real name as his gamer handle (like Jaedong from BW), we already do refer to him by his name.
In other words, by calling each pro-gamer by his gamer handle, we're calling him what he wants to be called... so this is really a non-issue.
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On November 22 2011 12:17 Ryusei-R1 wrote:
SC1 pros had handfuls of usernames each. Imagine calling Hiya all of his different usernames instead of just Magikarp or Hiya. Nobody would know who the fuck who was talking about.
Good thing this isn't BW and that we're limited to one username.
Usernames are much easier to remember than real names.
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Some soccer players also use "nicknames" instead of their real names.
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I'm sure someone brought this up already, I didn't go through all 23 pages to see if someone has, but I don't like how people are saying they are much easier to remember, to me thats a cop out to OP's point. I think that nicknames add Identity to the players. As soon as you take that away there's going to be a lot of Jonathan's and Chris's where as of right now there is only one Jinro and one HuK.
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Idk, i like the nicknames . . .theyre more fun, they also allow for less confusion. Do you know how many Chris's and Johns and so on and so on. I dont know how diverse korean names are but I do know korea is smaller than the whole foreigner sports scene combined. It would just be too confusing with real names.
I understand why we keep going back to real sports when trying to improve e-sports, but somethings just dont compare. This is one of those instances. Athletes don't have gamer tags like e-sport players do, so there's never any debate of nickname > realname . . .
Nicknames will stay for awhile, and I'm glad of it =). gives more personality to the player and less confusion to us.
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My nickname is my real name. Mind blown.
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Yet you did not make your handle Samuli, lead by example if you want change mate 
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It makes me feel awesome !!
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For BW it's a lot easier because Korean names keep to 3 characters. Imagine having to set up an overlay for someone who has an absurdly long first and last name. Something like Constantine Checkjowtov would be a nightmare for casters and for overlays. Instead the person uses a name like "IMSession" and everything is fine
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I don't get people complaining about things like this. Look at the growth SC2 has seen over the past year. It's growth that has never before been seen by any esport. I don't understand why people would want to change what isn't broken. This is how our community is, and that's how it should stay.
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EPT
