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On November 16 2011 01:25 AtreSamus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:23 Nightmer09 wrote:
Who the hell is slayers to interdict a skill player like coca to not play and stuff, he can just ditch their asses and make money, there 10000 teams there anyways, he can do what he wants as long as he has skill, fuck off slayers, stop bashing coca. Contracts? When joining and signing up for a team you should have a fairly good idea about what their philosophy about stuff is and if he didnt feel that he did something slightly wrong Im sure he will just do what you think he should do, leave. Dont hate on Slayers for wanting to keep up face. In a way, they are being silly, because they made the biggest deal of it, before even properly investigating (the measure about Code S withdrawal was posted almost immediately after air). I still have some little hope (there are some hours left) that they will overrule what they did. After all, even the threat of doing it by now is of almost the same magnitude of punishment (not that Coca needs to be punished for being busy to play next round and thus forfeiting due to scheduling issues).
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This whole thing is just stupid, it wasn't match fixing. Match fixing has to be in some way predetermined, leaving the match randomly because he decided to leave isn't match fixing it's just stupid. The worst that should happen to either of them is have them banned from the next x ESV Korean Weekly tournaments for doing something that messes with their tournament, but they shouldn't be banned from other tournaments or penalized in other ways. This entire thing is being blown out of proportion.
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On November 16 2011 01:32 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:26 CinnaBuns wrote:
I don't understand the reaction that some people don't think this is match fixing.
Were the players friends?
Sure.
Was there a bit of joking around?
No doubt.
Was this a highly premeditated act to deceive the public?
Obviously not.
Did a player intentionally lose so another could advance in a tournament setting?
YES. This is the only relevant case in the matter. This is match fixing.
They did something incredibly stupid, got caught, and will now be paying the price. It's a heavy price to pay, but live and learn. I don't think it really is matchfixing because Coca didn't benefit from the situation, he could have just played the games with one hand and let the other guy win, haha. There is no "criminal intent" here, so it's really not that big a deal.
Coca didn't benefit other than getting the warm fuzzy feeling of helping a friend. But what he did directly throws into doubt the integrity of the tournament and scene as a whole. This was not an exhibition match, but a tournament with prize winnings (even if said prize is quite minor).
In a country that takes esports seriously, like a real sport, competitive integrity must also be taken seriously. So, in their case, they got the hammer dropped on them. If they only wanted to play for fun, don't become a "pro" gamer and everything that being a professional encompasses.
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Lol, this thread just shows how different foreigners see ¨e sports ¨ as compared to the Koreans
Foreigners:¨Nah its Ok, it was just a game in a tournament that didn´t matter. respect to the competition, sponsors and tournament makers be damned¨
Koreans:¨This is a competition, no matter how big or small the tournament is you are going to play it seriously, you owe it to the fans, sponsors and tournament makers¨
Hell, the fact that foreigner fans want to have Savior playing again shows how casually they take this kind of stuff.
was it a small tournament? yes
Were the players involved friends? yes
Was it ok for them to do this? No, its a total lack of respect to the competition.
Welp, I guess this shows the difference in passion between the communities when it comes to e sports. Koreans protected the legitimacy of the competition. Was the punishment too harsh? maybe but thats what they decided.
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I'm disappointed in both coca and byun's roles in this. Poor liquibet x.x
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So, Coca forfeits a game, and the punishment for that is to make him forfeit all his games at GSL, oh the irony....
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On November 16 2011 01:34 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:26 Bobster wrote:On November 16 2011 01:09 Zeetee wrote:wait.. what the hell? didn't some guy do the same thing for white-ra at an MLG one time? (white-ra showed up late so he lost the first 2 sets or something, so the guy just worker rushed/gg'd until the score was even). i understand that there's some differences (coca was in a winning position before giving away the free win, while white-ras opponent just gave it away at the beginning), but its still amazing to me that people will flip out over this while white-ras opponent was praised for throwing games.... liquipedia source + Show Spoiler +On July 22 2011, Slasher of MLG announced that White-Ra would appear at MLG Anaheim in the open bracket along with players Jinro and LastShadow.[4] White-Ra was disqualified in his match against Gimix because he did not make it to the game in time, but he managed to fight his way through the loser's bracket to secure him a slot in the Championship Bracket where he was stopped by SeleCT. During his path to the Championship Bracket, he once again faced Gimix, and due to his previous disqualification and MLG's extended series rule, Gimix had a 2 - 0 lead on White-Ra. Knowing that the disqualification was not "right", Gimix worker rushed the first two games so that the series would be 2 - 2, and thus be a normal best of three. Completely different situation. The MLG incident was an excellent display of fair play and sportsmanship, while this incident undermines the legitimacy and integrity of the tournament it was played in and went against the competitive spirit of the game. A much better comparison would've been the EG ESCW situation (which was terrible as well, imo). Yeah, Gimix was awarded a forfeit win earlier when he did not want to accept it, and was given a 2-0 lead the next time they met due to extended series rules, and he didn't want an unfair advantage. He did it TO have a fair match and to try to beat WhiteRa fair and square. This is quite a bit different. how was gimix's advantage unfair? did White-Ra broke rules? yes he did and got punished (White-ra's fan here).
gimix did the same as coca .. he did not play to his best and that way he "undermined the legitimacy and integrity of the tournament" (as many in this thread use this reasoning) ... doesnt matter what "good" reasons to do that he had ... coca had his "good" reasons as well
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On November 16 2011 01:32 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:26 CinnaBuns wrote:
I don't understand the reaction that some people don't think this is match fixing.
Were the players friends?
Sure.
Was there a bit of joking around?
No doubt.
Was this a highly premeditated act to deceive the public?
Obviously not.
Did a player intentionally lose so another could advance in a tournament setting?
YES. This is the only relevant case in the matter. This is match fixing.
They did something incredibly stupid, got caught, and will now be paying the price. It's a heavy price to pay, but live and learn. I don't think it really is matchfixing because Coca didn't benefit from the situation, he could have just played the games with one hand and let the other guy win, haha. There is no "criminal intent" here, so it's really not that big a deal.
that's why he's not permanently banned from Korean SC scene
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On November 16 2011 01:46 windsupernova wrote:
Lol, this thread just shows how different foreigners see ¨e sports ¨ as compared to the Koreans
Foreigners:¨Nah its Ok, it was just a game in a tournament that didn´t matter. respect to the competition, sponsors and tournament makers be damned¨
Koreans:¨This is a competition, no matter how big or small the tournament is you are going to play it seriously, you owe it to the fans, sponsors and tournament makers¨
Hell, the fact that foreigner fans want to have Savior playing again shows how casually they take this kind of stuff.
was it a small tournament? yes
Were the players involved friends? yes
Was it ok for them to do this? No, its a total lack of respect to the competition.
Welp, I guess this shows the difference in passion between the communities when it comes to e sports. Koreans protected the legitimacy of the competition. Was the punishment too harsh? maybe but thats what they decided.
Yeah, only foreigners wants to see savior play again, right? I guess the thousands of koreans who watched and supported his stream on afreeca just did it because they hate him.
Don't go there.
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On November 16 2011 01:46 windsupernova wrote:
Lol, this thread just shows how different foreigners see ¨e sports ¨ as compared to the Koreans
Foreigners:¨Nah its Ok, it was just a game in a tournament that didn´t matter. respect to the competition, sponsors and tournament makers be damned¨
Koreans:¨This is a competition, no matter how big or small the tournament is you are going to play it seriously, you owe it to the fans, sponsors and tournament makers¨
Hell, the fact that foreigner fans want to have Savior playing again shows how casually they take this kind of stuff.
was it a small tournament? yes
Were the players involved friends? yes
Was it ok for them to do this? No, its a total lack of respect to the competition.
Welp, I guess this shows the difference in passion between the communities when it comes to e sports. Koreans protected the legitimacy of the competition. Was the punishment too harsh? maybe but thats what they decided.
Following your style:
Should they be punished for the total lack of respect to the competition? yes.
Is the punishment over the line? yes.
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what a pair of donkeys
they deserve what they get for being incompetant about making agreements.
as for the punishment beign too severe ... no its not.
In competition you compete ... often you are not even allowed to say encouraging words toyour oponent as it can be belittling.
Its not like the final table of a poker game where players reach an agreement on how to split the purse.
The entire premise of poker is different - its about making as much money as possible of chumps. The whole game is based ont he principle of exploiting. When you make an agreemtn on the final table you can bet the people with chips have the weight and also that everyone else walks away with LESS than they would if they placed in that position - but they are willing to spend that bit of income for CERTAINTY. However once that agreement is made and the awards are decided the game goes on again *properly* and the fans have no idea who gets what actual money. As far as they are concerned the guy who finished first won it all when in reality he may of agreed to a tiny stake at the start of the table.
This is different this is a competative sport in which there is supposed to be honor.
You owe it to the other guy to crush him
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On November 16 2011 01:53 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:46 windsupernova wrote:
Lol, this thread just shows how different foreigners see ¨e sports ¨ as compared to the Koreans
Foreigners:¨Nah its Ok, it was just a game in a tournament that didn´t matter. respect to the competition, sponsors and tournament makers be damned¨
Koreans:¨This is a competition, no matter how big or small the tournament is you are going to play it seriously, you owe it to the fans, sponsors and tournament makers¨
Hell, the fact that foreigner fans want to have Savior playing again shows how casually they take this kind of stuff.
was it a small tournament? yes
Were the players involved friends? yes
Was it ok for them to do this? No, its a total lack of respect to the competition.
Welp, I guess this shows the difference in passion between the communities when it comes to e sports. Koreans protected the legitimacy of the competition. Was the punishment too harsh? maybe but thats what they decided. Following your style: Should they be punished for the total lack of respect to the competition? yes. Is the punishment over the line? yes.
what punishment? it's Coca own decision to forfeit his code S spot, and slayers as a team's decision to limiting his participation in tournament, IF this happen to EG.Idra, they probably would just give Gom the middle finger/"ban me or fuck off",
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With regards to the chat vs no chat thing:
A lot of the time these "arrangements" between friends / teammates in sports aren't penalised because of how hard it is to police / prove. But in this case it isn't hard to prove at all. It's as bad as Fergie and Arsene Wenger entering the stadium holding a banner "We're gonna draw LOLOLOL  "
Although it's not as serious as what saviOr did, it's still matchfixing. Degree of magnitude should only be relevant to the degree of punishment (which in this case seems appropriate), not conviction.
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what is with everyone over reacting to EVERYTHING on this site?
Remember stephano and that russian terran (can't remember his name) from a recent tournament, where the winner was to play Sen in the next round and they both attempted to throw the game by playing absolutely awfully?
No one gave a shit about that
This is basically no different, Calm the fuck down.
Coca had nothing to gain from winning, so he lost.
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Extremely disappointed in Boxer. As the wise mentor of team Slayers you would expect him to be strict, but also to be lenient and forgiving. Handing out such harsh punishment to a kid like Coca....I don't know, I imagined Boxer to be a White-Ra/Gandalf-like person who takes the context of Coca's actions into account and judges accordingly.
Boxer's reaction to this whole thing was equivalent to a overly eager dad who catches his son stealing a candybar and proceeds to beat the shit out of him, so the other parents don't think he is a bad father.
I am a social worker myself and let me tell you this: Kids make mistakes, your job as an adult is make sure that they learn from it by giving them second chances. And lets be clear: Coca's actions were well-intentioned, but he chose the wrong way to go about it.
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On November 16 2011 01:53 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:46 windsupernova wrote:
Lol, this thread just shows how different foreigners see ¨e sports ¨ as compared to the Koreans
Foreigners:¨Nah its Ok, it was just a game in a tournament that didn´t matter. respect to the competition, sponsors and tournament makers be damned¨
Koreans:¨This is a competition, no matter how big or small the tournament is you are going to play it seriously, you owe it to the fans, sponsors and tournament makers¨
Hell, the fact that foreigner fans want to have Savior playing again shows how casually they take this kind of stuff.
was it a small tournament? yes
Were the players involved friends? yes
Was it ok for them to do this? No, its a total lack of respect to the competition.
Welp, I guess this shows the difference in passion between the communities when it comes to e sports. Koreans protected the legitimacy of the competition. Was the punishment too harsh? maybe but thats what they decided. Following your style: Should they be punished for the total lack of respect to the competition? yes. Is the punishment over the line? yes.
I would have to contest that the punishment wasn't really over the line. I believe that Coca and Byun should be punished as professional gamers, but not as people.
What they did, from the point of view of e-sports, was undermine the integrity of a tournament. Now, especially with the sting of the match-fixing scandal still being felt pretty hard by a large amount of people, it seems appropriate that their teams took the action they did. Their teams taking care of the punishment makes it less likely that other organizations will need to intervene heavily.
On the other hand, from the point of view that their human, what they did does not make them immoral or dumb. They just made a mistake, one that should have repercussions on their professional lives (so they and other people will not make that same mistake), but one that should not brand them harshly. In reality it just seems like they were having a bit too much fun with their match, but I'm sure that at least Coca will bounce back. I guess, in my mind, they are like the college freshman that drank too much in their first semester and got put on some sort of academic probation for their second semester. It's a mistake, but one that they can make up for.
Hopefully this blob of text made sense >_<.
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On November 16 2011 02:08 Emma Watson wrote:I am a social worker myself and let me tell you this: Kids make mistakes, your job as an adult is make sure that they learn from it by giving them second chances. And lets be clear: Coca's actions were well-intentioned, but he chose the wrong way to go about it.
He is given a second chance, just not immediately. He's just basically given a time-out and will be back when the team deems appropriate.
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On November 16 2011 02:08 UnholyRai wrote:
what is with everyone over reacting to EVERYTHING on this site?
Remember stephano and that russian terran (can't remember his name) from a recent tournament, where the winner was to play Sen in the next round and they both attempted to throw the game by playing absolutely awfully?
No one gave a shit about that
But they should have. Assembly rules CLEARLY stated that it is prohibited, yet nothing happened.
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I love Coca and Byun but this is the right decision
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EPT
