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On November 11 2011 23:36 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 21:28 msjakofsky wrote:just want to add that while the protoss army regains shields the ghosts also regain energy to emp again  I don't think Energy regenerates as fast as Shields though. All i'm saying here btw is that EMP is absolutely neccessary in Terran lategame against any Protoss army to win. There had been several Protoss-players ( i presume ) trying to argue otherwise and crying "OFMG 1000! IMBA bla bla" . While thats alot it's still actually neccessary . Would it still work if it was over time ? Probably but it wouldn't make a like of difference overall. It does it's damage instantly and after shields are gone and there's no target with Energy to EMP it's useless unlike Storm or Fungal .
You realize that after all the Protoss shields are down, an MMM ball that engages the Protoss army wins the battle decisively right?
If it was possible to run away after losing all Protoss' shields, people would done so already, but the MMM ball is a lot faster than the Protoss ball and Vikings will get a few Colo kills if they are running.
Yes, EMP is pretty much useless other than in engagements, but when that happens, the Terran wins in a landslide.
And Terran armies can win in the big 200/200 battles even if they don't have EMP as long as they don't have storms to blanket your army in.
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True, mass Archons/Zealot/Colossus cannot win vs Terran.
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On November 12 2011 01:31 Nightshake wrote:
True, mass Archons/Zealot/Colossus cannot win vs Terran.
...if they haven't got their shields up.
No need to thank for finish your sentence, was a pleasure.
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On November 11 2011 19:13 Honeybadger wrote:
Shields recharge. Fast.
Replied within 30 sec didn't you? But your point is mostly valid, especially on paper. As well, your final point is spot on, who are we to talk about balance?
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Double Forge is soooooo powerful now :D
Greetings.
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On November 12 2011 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
I actually want terrans to just shut up. What was until now OP they consider rightfully theirs and now that Blizzard took care of the problem (at least maybe) they are all OMG the NERFZ!!!. No dudes, it's called balance so that the mighty terrans come to the earthly zergs and protoss.
Man up and learn new strategies, but that should be easy cause all the t players are the smartest anyway.
So say the protoss players that only now realized the warp prism is in the game. It took 1 year for people to finally start using the warp prism...can you wrap your head around how hilarious that is? They've had nice harrass this entire time, they just refuse to use it because of a misconception it's not good lol.
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On November 12 2011 01:07 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 23:36 s3rp wrote:On November 11 2011 21:28 msjakofsky wrote:just want to add that while the protoss army regains shields the ghosts also regain energy to emp again I don't think Energy regenerates as fast as Shields though. All i'm saying here btw is that EMP is absolutely neccessary in Terran lategame against any Protoss army to win. There had been several Protoss-players ( i presume ) trying to argue otherwise and crying "OFMG 1000! IMBA bla bla" . While thats alot it's still actually neccessary . Would it still work if it was over time ? Probably but it wouldn't make a like of difference overall. It does it's damage instantly and after shields are gone and there's no target with Energy to EMP it's useless unlike Storm or Fungal . You realize that after all the Protoss shields are down, an MMM ball that engages the Protoss army wins the battle decisively right? If it was possible to run away after losing all Protoss' shields, people would done so already, but the MMM ball is a lot faster than the Protoss ball and Vikings will get a few Colo kills if they are running. Yes, EMP is pretty much useless other than in engagements, but when that happens, the Terran wins in a landslide. And Terran armies can win in the big 200/200 battles even if they don't have EMP as long as they don't have storms to blanket your army in.
Depends ALOT on fighting position. On open field with plenty of space to spread out yeah probably but you don' always get enough of that space. And 200/200 fights don't go allways in huge landslide in Terran favor thats just non-sense . Even if the Terran wins the losses will be severe enough to not immitiatly engage again afterwards and win the game in most cases. And since Protoss reeinforce quicker Terran is screwed if you ever not win a battle decisive enough. You'll just get overrun, especially on big Maps where Warpgate really makes a difference. You can't just engag with a wounded army if the Toss has 4-5 Bases and 20 Warpgate he'll be maxed again before you arrive at his base and in most cases with a changed up army . More of what gets countered by what you just lost the most. You have to know where his focus is right now or you'll die horribly. Too many Ghosts and too few Vikings well Colossi just kill you , too many Vikings too few Ghosts Archons and HT's will eat you. And if you have too few MMM you might just lose to a buttload of Zealots warped in .
You could scan but in most cases thats just a shot in the dark that might or might not work.
You guys act like Protoss gets rolled all the time which just isn't the case anymore. Everytime a Toss wins you guy act like the Toss player was by far the better player anyway but if the Terran wins "OMG! IMBA! NERF!" and not that the better player won. TvP right now is stupid but kinda balanced not in every situation or on every Map but still Protoss players win alot more against Terran these day then they do against Zergs for example.
I don't know what you expect remove EMP-Shield damage ? Playing Terran is not as easy as some of you guys make it out to be just as playing Protoss isn't. Both sides have pretty easy to use units one that are hard to use and both races ( all 3 in fact ) are different enough that it isn't possible to directly compare 1 thing with another. You can't just say well MMM is so strong that it beats Gateway and there's nothing i can do about that because thanks to Warpgate Gateway units can't be that strong else Warping in anywhere on the Map would be seriously imbalanced. There's a buttloard of those comparisions that could be drawn that would be totally misleading wihtout lookig at the total picture.
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On November 12 2011 09:11 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
I actually want terrans to just shut up. What was until now OP they consider rightfully theirs and now that Blizzard took care of the problem (at least maybe) they are all OMG the NERFZ!!!. No dudes, it's called balance so that the mighty terrans come to the earthly zergs and protoss.
Man up and learn new strategies, but that should be easy cause all the t players are the smartest anyway.
So say the protoss players that only now realized the warp prism is in the game. It took 1 year for people to finally start using the warp prism...can you wrap your head around how hilarious that is? They've had nice harrass this entire time, they just refuse to use it because of a misconception it's not good lol.
No, Protoss didn't use it because it died when something glanced at it.
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On November 12 2011 09:09 How2getMaster wrote:
Double Forge is soooooo powerful now :D
Greetings.
While this patch may have made you recognize that double upgrades have the potential to be good, I'm curious as to just how much stronger it is now than before the patch.
Did you go double upgrades a lot before the patch, and now you see a noticeable difference? Because the cost isn't that much different, so there shouldn't be much (or any) difference in the timing or anything like that. What actually makes double forge "soooooo" (worthy of six o's) powerful now, as opposed to before? Just curious. The extra two gateway units?
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On November 12 2011 09:11 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
I actually want terrans to just shut up. What was until now OP they consider rightfully theirs and now that Blizzard took care of the problem (at least maybe) they are all OMG the NERFZ!!!. No dudes, it's called balance so that the mighty terrans come to the earthly zergs and protoss.
Man up and learn new strategies, but that should be easy cause all the t players are the smartest anyway.
So say the protoss players that only now realized the warp prism is in the game. It took 1 year for people to finally start using the warp prism...can you wrap your head around how hilarious that is? They've had nice harrass this entire time, they just refuse to use it because of a misconception it's not good lol.
Was the misconception "it dying in five seconds to everything that shoots air"? Because that wasn't a misconception, and that was fixed by a buff (which allowed Protoss players to actually use warp prisms... which we now see... so clearly, the buff was needed).
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On November 12 2011 09:20 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 09:11 avilo wrote:On November 12 2011 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
I actually want terrans to just shut up. What was until now OP they consider rightfully theirs and now that Blizzard took care of the problem (at least maybe) they are all OMG the NERFZ!!!. No dudes, it's called balance so that the mighty terrans come to the earthly zergs and protoss.
Man up and learn new strategies, but that should be easy cause all the t players are the smartest anyway.
So say the protoss players that only now realized the warp prism is in the game. It took 1 year for people to finally start using the warp prism...can you wrap your head around how hilarious that is? They've had nice harrass this entire time, they just refuse to use it because of a misconception it's not good lol. No, Protoss didn't use it because it died when something glanced at it.
I believe a small group of progamers (including HerO and White-Ra) made extensive and highly effective use of the Warp Prism well before the health buff.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 12 2011 09:25 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 09:20 Elefanto wrote:On November 12 2011 09:11 avilo wrote:On November 12 2011 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
I actually want terrans to just shut up. What was until now OP they consider rightfully theirs and now that Blizzard took care of the problem (at least maybe) they are all OMG the NERFZ!!!. No dudes, it's called balance so that the mighty terrans come to the earthly zergs and protoss.
Man up and learn new strategies, but that should be easy cause all the t players are the smartest anyway.
So say the protoss players that only now realized the warp prism is in the game. It took 1 year for people to finally start using the warp prism...can you wrap your head around how hilarious that is? They've had nice harrass this entire time, they just refuse to use it because of a misconception it's not good lol. No, Protoss didn't use it because it died when something glanced at it. I believe a small group of progamers (including HerO and White-Ra) made extensive and highly effective use of the Warp Prism well before the health buff.
It worked mostly because nobody was expecting it
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On November 12 2011 09:43 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 09:25 Blazinghand wrote:On November 12 2011 09:20 Elefanto wrote:On November 12 2011 09:11 avilo wrote:On November 12 2011 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
I actually want terrans to just shut up. What was until now OP they consider rightfully theirs and now that Blizzard took care of the problem (at least maybe) they are all OMG the NERFZ!!!. No dudes, it's called balance so that the mighty terrans come to the earthly zergs and protoss.
Man up and learn new strategies, but that should be easy cause all the t players are the smartest anyway.
So say the protoss players that only now realized the warp prism is in the game. It took 1 year for people to finally start using the warp prism...can you wrap your head around how hilarious that is? They've had nice harrass this entire time, they just refuse to use it because of a misconception it's not good lol. No, Protoss didn't use it because it died when something glanced at it. I believe a small group of progamers (including HerO and White-Ra) made extensive and highly effective use of the Warp Prism well before the health buff. It worked mostly because nobody was expecting it
That's a reasonable explanation, and ordinarily I would find that convincing. In fact, if I were laddering and was up against an unknown protoss, I would not be expecting Warp Prism play. A point well-made.
However, both HerO and White-Ra are professionals. They used their builds repeatedly in recorded, tournament environments and were observed by their adversaries and contemporaries, sometimes using warp prisms more than once in the same series. The repeated and effective use of drop play by both of these players, pre-Warp Prism buff, garnered them devoted followings among the spectators and respect from their opponents.
As professionals, they played stylistically-- and both their fans and their opponents knew this.
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On November 11 2011 19:13 Honeybadger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 07:05 gosuMalicE wrote:
Man I cannot believe the massive amount of Terran balance whine in this thread (like every other post) Just suck it up guys, basically everyone, including most terrans, agreed that emp was overpowered, why don't you just try the new version of the spell instead of bitching about it. I'll stop thinking of EMP as OP when protoss stop saying it does damage. Shields recharge. Fast. You have storms, zerg has fungal. Both can kill units. Our damaging AOE spell comes from an awkward upgrade, slow, flying, vulnerable unit that has better spells in an engagement and the damage spell itself has a range of about nine inches. And I don't care. I'm just sick of protss players who aren't korean progamers whining that their race is weak. Grow up, seriously. You have a lot more problems before you can even THINK about game design as an issue.
Protoss will stop saying it does damage when terran medivacs stop healing. Medivacs recharge hp. Fast. Faster than shield regeneration. Blazing fast. You have EMP, it does damage AND takes away energy. Protoss cannot simply retreat and recharge their shields as they must be out of battle (impossible with 30 maraders with concussive chasing), where as medivacs heal instantly during battle. Your point is moot. Sorry.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 12 2011 09:48 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 09:43 pPingu wrote:On November 12 2011 09:25 Blazinghand wrote:On November 12 2011 09:20 Elefanto wrote:On November 12 2011 09:11 avilo wrote:On November 12 2011 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
I actually want terrans to just shut up. What was until now OP they consider rightfully theirs and now that Blizzard took care of the problem (at least maybe) they are all OMG the NERFZ!!!. No dudes, it's called balance so that the mighty terrans come to the earthly zergs and protoss.
Man up and learn new strategies, but that should be easy cause all the t players are the smartest anyway.
So say the protoss players that only now realized the warp prism is in the game. It took 1 year for people to finally start using the warp prism...can you wrap your head around how hilarious that is? They've had nice harrass this entire time, they just refuse to use it because of a misconception it's not good lol. No, Protoss didn't use it because it died when something glanced at it. I believe a small group of progamers (including HerO and White-Ra) made extensive and highly effective use of the Warp Prism well before the health buff. It worked mostly because nobody was expecting it That's a reasonable explanation, and ordinarily I would find that convincing. In fact, if I were laddering and was up against an unknown protoss, I would not be expecting Warp Prism play. A point well-made. However, both HerO and White-Ra are professionals. They used their builds repeatedly in recorded, tournament environments and were observed by their adversaries and contemporaries, sometimes using warp prisms more than once in the same series. The repeated and effective use of drop play by both of these players, pre-Warp Prism buff, garnered them devoted followings among the spectators and respect from their opponents. As professionals, they played stylistically-- and both their fans and their opponents knew this.
You're right, but I think they were using it more at random timings and tried to surprise their opponents with it, so even if they knew it would come, they wouldn't be prepared for it everytime. But I may be wrong.
Anyways, having your warp prism scouted was really unforgiving and I don't think Hero was able to do things like colossus drop before the patch, because the warp prism had so few health. That's why he was using it more as a support unit from what I've seen (keep it behind your army full with ht or as a forward pylon)
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For retreating purposes why not just left say 4-5 sentries behind your army..(you rly only need a couple for guardian shield which cant be shut down by ghosts emp shot thank god :D) Because you know anyway forcefield wont be effective when ghosts go live. So you get into a fight, get emped heavily and see you cannot win what you wanna do is just focus on killing ghosts(aka making a good trade) and fall back to your sentries and FF to delay as much as possible for regenerate and reinforce units(Same thing can apply to HT as Hero was doing amazingly well).. Even though it hurts my protoss heart - Idra said it great, protoss was getting away with the death balls for too long... We need to think "outside of the ball" :D
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On November 12 2011 09:11 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:
I actually want terrans to just shut up. What was until now OP they consider rightfully theirs and now that Blizzard took care of the problem (at least maybe) they are all OMG the NERFZ!!!. No dudes, it's called balance so that the mighty terrans come to the earthly zergs and protoss.
Man up and learn new strategies, but that should be easy cause all the t players are the smartest anyway.
So say the protoss players that only now realized the warp prism is in the game. It took 1 year for people to finally start using the warp prism...can you wrap your head around how hilarious that is? They've had nice harrass this entire time, they just refuse to use it because of a misconception it's not good lol.
the warp prysim was terrible before the patch. dont just compare the hp with medivacs and say "well there about the same so protoss players calling them paper planes must be retarded", compare the anti air of the protoss and the antiair of the terran as well.
terran has vikings which have insane range and marines which have insane dps. both of these units are nearly always made in a protoss vs terran matchup. pre-patch, a partrolling viking was enough to shut down any warp prysim harass within the viking's range (which is huge).if u dont believe me see san vs sc.
now look at the protoss anti air, we have stalkers, voidrays and phoenixs(im not counting archons, sentrys, carriers and mothership for obvious reasons) . phoenixs and voidrays arnt really that useful against anything else and require a good number to shut down terran drops otherwise the marines inside rape them. therefore, terran drops have a much easier time escaping and are very low risk. protoss also dont have that much stuff to actually drop, zealots are slow, stalkers have terrible dps, immortals cut away at colossus count and wernt that good in a engagement (5 range) and droping them was super risky.
add to that the fact that the terran will make medivacs no matter what since are made to heal stuff, while the warp prysim cuts away at the colossus count and doesnt do much other than harass so only one would most likely be made. u can see why people didnt harass with warp prysims pre patch
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On November 12 2011 09:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 09:09 How2getMaster wrote:
Double Forge is soooooo powerful now :D
Greetings. While this patch may have made you recognize that double upgrades have the potential to be good, I'm curious as to just how much stronger it is now than before the patch. Did you go double upgrades a lot before the patch, and now you see a noticeable difference? Because the cost isn't that much different, so there shouldn't be much (or any) difference in the timing or anything like that. What actually makes double forge "soooooo" (worthy of six o's) powerful now, as opposed to before? Just curious. The extra two gateway units?
I think its mostly the fact that you can start 2/2 upgrades (50gas/(228gas/min) * 60 seconds/min) = about 13 game seconds sooner now. Of course, this assumes your only using 2 gas.
But still, you'll be able to get 3/3 like 30 seconds sooner now.
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On November 12 2011 13:20 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 09:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 12 2011 09:09 How2getMaster wrote:
Double Forge is soooooo powerful now :D
Greetings. While this patch may have made you recognize that double upgrades have the potential to be good, I'm curious as to just how much stronger it is now than before the patch. Did you go double upgrades a lot before the patch, and now you see a noticeable difference? Because the cost isn't that much different, so there shouldn't be much (or any) difference in the timing or anything like that. What actually makes double forge "soooooo" (worthy of six o's) powerful now, as opposed to before? Just curious. The extra two gateway units? I think its mostly the fact that you can start 2/2 upgrades (50gas/(228gas/min) * 60 seconds/min) = about 13 game seconds sooner now. Of course, this assumes your only using 2 gas. But still, you'll be able to get 3/3 like 30 seconds sooner now.
Well technically, you could have always started 2/2 right after 1/1 finished, even before this patch hit. You just had to make sure you had enough gas. If your build centered around upgrades, this was never a problem... you just warped in the gas units after you started the upgrades, not the other way around (or you made a zealot instead of a sentry).
To be frank, this actually doesn't allow you to start later upgrades any faster at all, because 1/1 starts at the same time, and you're still capable of budgeting your own gas however you want afterwards. So actually, all the buff lets you do is get about two extra gateway units, not actually let you start your upgrades any faster than you would have pre-patch.
And also, who's going to only be on one base when they're already on 2/2 (let alone 3/3)? 
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^This. The upgrade cost is just like the +10 hp to tanks back in beta, it's just there to make people realize how good something is and start using them rather than a huge game changing buff.
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EPT
