EPT1.4.2 Patch Live - Page 55
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
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gosuMalicE
Canada676 Posts
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
On November 11 2011 07:05 gosuMalicE wrote: Man I cannot believe the massive amount of Terran balance whine in this thread (like every other post) Just suck it up guys, basically everyone, including most terrans, agreed that emp was overpowered, why don't you just try the new version of the spell instead of bitching about it. I'll stop thinking of EMP as OP when protoss stop saying it does damage. Shields recharge. Fast. You have storms, zerg has fungal. Both can kill units. Our damaging AOE spell comes from an awkward upgrade, slow, flying, vulnerable unit that has better spells in an engagement and the damage spell itself has a range of about nine inches. And I don't care. I'm just sick of protss players who aren't korean progamers whining that their race is weak. Grow up, seriously. You have a lot more problems before you can even THINK about game design as an issue. | ||
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Quintum_
United States669 Posts
On November 11 2011 19:13 Honeybadger wrote: I'll stop thinking of EMP as OP when protoss stop saying it does damage. Shields recharge. Fast. You have storms, zerg has fungal. Both can kill units. Our damaging AOE spell comes from an awkward upgrade, slow, flying, vulnerable unit that has better spells in an engagement and the damage spell itself has a range of about nine inches. I know, what was everyone thinking, clearly the 1000+ shields that emp takes away in an instant from a protoss army is just cosmetic, And seeing as a protoss army is faster then stimed bio it is just so easy for them to not only get out of combat but stay out of combat for the 30 to 40 seconds it would take to get there army back to full shields. Gezz all these sc2 noobs, what are they thinking. | ||
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Mandalor
Germany2362 Posts
On November 11 2011 19:28 Quintum_ wrote: I know, what was everyone thinking, clearly the 1000+ shields that emp takes away in an instant from a protoss army is just cosmetic, And seeing as a protoss army is faster then stimed bio it is just so easy for them to not only get out of combat but stay out of combat for the 30 to 40 seconds it would take to get there army back to full shields. Gezz all these sc2 noobs, what are they thinking. haha I just had the exact same argument with a clanmate. Running away from a Terran bio army to recharge your shields. Lmao, try that yourself, just once. It's way better to just suicide your army to buy some time to rebuild some of it. This entire EMP nerf is stupid. I don't get why Blizzard nerfed the radius as if that made a difference. The problems with EMP come late late game when terran easily has enough ghosts to carpet emp the entire protoss army and just remove all their shields in a split second. I'd much rather see them nerf the damage to shields and give them their old radius back. They could even broaden the radius, I wouldn't care. I'd just love my stalkers to not have half their hitpoints because of a spell that doesn't have to be researched, cannot be avoided, has an energy upgrade and can come from a potentially cloaked unit that isn't even THAT expensive. | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
And ghosts are expensive as terran needs those minerals and its 50% more resources than HTs. | ||
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Sarang
Australia2363 Posts
On November 11 2011 19:48 Mandalor wrote: haha I just had the exact same argument with a clanmate. Running away from a Terran bio army to recharge your shields. Lmao, try that yourself, just once. It's way better to just suicide your army to buy some time to rebuild some of it. This entire EMP nerf is stupid. I don't get why Blizzard nerfed the radius as if that made a difference. The problems with EMP come late late game when terran easily has enough ghosts to carpet emp the entire protoss army and just remove all their shields in a split second. I'd much rather see them nerf the damage to shields and give them their old radius back. They could even broaden the radius, I wouldn't care. I'd just love my stalkers to not have half their hitpoints because of a spell that doesn't have to be researched, cannot be avoided, has an energy upgrade and can come from a potentially cloaked unit that isn't even THAT expensive. you realise there's been a ton of balance patches and protoss players have started doing better already, right? might be a good idea to wait a bit before we start nerfing terran and buffing protoss even more. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On November 11 2011 19:48 Mandalor wrote: haha I just had the exact same argument with a clanmate. Running away from a Terran bio army to recharge your shields. Lmao, try that yourself, just once. It's way better to just suicide your army to buy some time to rebuild some of it. This entire EMP nerf is stupid. I don't get why Blizzard nerfed the radius as if that made a difference. The problems with EMP come late late game when terran easily has enough ghosts to carpet emp the entire protoss army and just remove all their shields in a split second. I'd much rather see them nerf the damage to shields and give them their old radius back. They could even broaden the radius, I wouldn't care. I'd just love my stalkers to not have half their hitpoints because of a spell that doesn't have to be researched, cannot be avoided, has an energy upgrade and can come from a potentially cloaked unit that isn't even THAT expensive. EMP only effects a certain amount of HP the Shields . So after the EMP hit it will never be an issue again in the fight. And Protoss units have enough HP even without Shields , especially the Zealot to without getting hit by EMP and still manage to live very long . Long enough for the Protoss AOE to kick in. Protoss Units even without shields still do reasonably well enough considering reeinforcing them is alot faster and easier . I mean most of the EMP damage on non-melee units ( sans Collossi if Vikings are around ) will partly have regenerated once they actually get hit . Since the Terran Bio needs to kite and get rid of the Zealots and Archons before getting to the rest of the army. Zealot tank very well even without Shields tanks more then decent enough that is would be very hard / next to impossible to engage Zealot on full Shields everytime especially since all the Units that actually deal well with Zealots will be dead very quick once the AOE hits. Yes Sentrys/Stalkers/Templar etc die very fast but so do Marines ( that are the damage of the Terran army). Look at the HP with Shields of the Protoss units and then look at the HP of Terran Units ( and alot of times you can subtract 10 HP from Marines and 20 from Marauders thanks to Stim ) . Yes the Terran Bio does more damage but thanks to AOE-damage that will at least partly hit the HP of the Terran army will be even lower in the actual fight . So alot of Bio will die nevertheless. Terran only has a few Units with High HP and those are usually not all that usefull since they cost enough that Bio build instead will have ~equal HP while actually doing more damage beeing more mobile and having more combined Armor. The High HP Units don't even have an AOE to make up for it just good single target DPS something that isn't all that great in big fights. | ||
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Mandalor
Germany2362 Posts
On November 11 2011 20:29 s3rp wrote: EMP only effects a certain amount of HP the Shields . So after the EMP hit it will never be an issue again in the fight. And Protoss units have enough HP even without Shields , especially the Zealot to without getting hit by EMP and still manage to live very long . Long enough for the Protoss AOE to kick in. Protoss Units even without shields still do reasonably well enough considering reeinforcing them is alot faster and easier . I mean most of the EMP damage on non-melee units ( sans Collossi if Vikings are around ) will partly have regenerated once they actually get hit . Since the Terran Bio needs to kite and get rid of the Zealots and Archons before getting to the rest of the army. Zealot tank very well even without Shields tanks more then decent enough that is would be very hard / next to impossible to engage Zealot on full Shields everytime especially since all the Units that actually deal well with Zealots will be dead very quick once the AOE hits. Yes Sentrys/Stalkers/Templar etc die very fast but so do Marines ( that are the damage of the Terran army). Look at the HP with Shields of the Protoss units and then look at the HP of Terran Units ( and alot of times you can subtract 10 HP from Marines and 20 from Marauders thanks to Stim ) . Yes the Terran Bio does more damage but thanks to AOE-damage that will at least partly hit the HP of the Terran army will be even lower in the actual fight . So alot of Bio will die nevertheless. Terran only has a few Units with High HP and those are usually not all that usefull since they cost enough that Bio build instead will have ~equal HP while actually doing more damage beeing more mobile and having more combined Armor. The High HP Units don't even have an AOE to make up for it just good single target DPS something that isn't all that great in big fights. Protoss units having "enough HP even without Shields" is sooo subjective. I can't argue with you on that one. That's like me saying terran units do enough damage without Stim. Shields will not have partly regenerated once kiting has ended unless your entire army consists of zealots. I don't have the numbers at hand and I'm to lazy to check liquipedia, but shields take a decent time to even start regenerating and they don't exactly regenerate fast. If by "partly regenerated" you mean they'll have regained 1/10th of their full shields, then yeah - probably. Marines are supposed to die fast. They only cost you 50 minerals afterall, but I'm not here to discuss the balance of marines (I think they're fine actually). All I'm saying is EMP is incredibly strong and this patch won't change the problematic laaaategame. I welcome it, since I will most likely get a storm or two more off midgame since it's harder to hit specific targets now if they're spread out, but I still feel like the very lategame is still strongly in favor of terran and I don't think the patch will affect that. At all. On November 11 2011 20:25 Sarang wrote: you realise there's been a ton of balance patches and protoss players have started doing better already, right? might be a good idea to wait a bit before we start nerfing terran and buffing protoss even more. Last time I checked they didn't do better. They did reasonably well in Code A this week, but I think it's way too early to say that this is a general trend. But yeah I'm in favor of waiting some time and seeing if this patch really helped. I don't think it will, but I'm willing to accept that I was wrong if the results prove it. On November 11 2011 20:08 secretary bird wrote: Do you mean a maximum shield damage by emp? like 50 or something? I think a bigger radius with less damage would be much better for terran than this much smaller radius as you could emp again if necessary and against zealots it wouldnt even be needed while it would make no difference from pre-patch for energy removal. And ghosts are expensive as terran needs those minerals and its 50% more resources than HTs. Exactly. This wouldn't be a gigantic nerf, but it would take terran to emp several times to completely remove all shields. That would take more skill and that's something I like peronally. It would still be a great spell and that's fine. Gas is the issue. Not minerals. Especially if you have mules. | ||
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zeehar
Korea (South)3804 Posts
On November 11 2011 19:13 Honeybadger wrote: I'll stop thinking of EMP as OP when protoss stop saying it does damage. Shields recharge. Fast. You have storms, zerg has fungal. Both can kill units. Our damaging AOE spell comes from an awkward upgrade, slow, flying, vulnerable unit that has better spells in an engagement and the damage spell itself has a range of about nine inches. shields don't recharge when units are taking damage. how easy is it to run away from a bio army? not very, considering the terran has MARAUDERS edit: after reading these posts after this guy, i can't believe so many people don't even know that SHIELDS DONT RECHARGE WHEN THE UNIT IS TAKING DAMAGE UNLIKE ZERG REGEN AND HOW SHIELDS WORK IN BROOD WAR also, shields recharge fast, faster than they did in brood war, but it's NO WAY near a rate fast enough to have compensate for the ridiculous dps that MMM can do | ||
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
On November 11 2011 21:04 Mandalor wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 11 2011 20:29 s3rp wrote: EMP only effects a certain amount of HP the Shields . So after the EMP hit it will never be an issue again in the fight. And Protoss units have enough HP even without Shields , especially the Zealot to without getting hit by EMP and still manage to live very long . Long enough for the Protoss AOE to kick in. Protoss Units even without shields still do reasonably well enough considering reeinforcing them is alot faster and easier . I mean most of the EMP damage on non-melee units ( sans Collossi if Vikings are around ) will partly have regenerated once they actually get hit . Since the Terran Bio needs to kite and get rid of the Zealots and Archons before getting to the rest of the army. Zealot tank very well even without Shields tanks more then decent enough that is would be very hard / next to impossible to engage Zealot on full Shields everytime especially since all the Units that actually deal well with Zealots will be dead very quick once the AOE hits. Yes Sentrys/Stalkers/Templar etc die very fast but so do Marines ( that are the damage of the Terran army). Look at the HP with Shields of the Protoss units and then look at the HP of Terran Units ( and alot of times you can subtract 10 HP from Marines and 20 from Marauders thanks to Stim ) . Yes the Terran Bio does more damage but thanks to AOE-damage that will at least partly hit the HP of the Terran army will be even lower in the actual fight . So alot of Bio will die nevertheless. Terran only has a few Units with High HP and those are usually not all that usefull since they cost enough that Bio build instead will have ~equal HP while actually doing more damage beeing more mobile and having more combined Armor. The High HP Units don't even have an AOE to make up for it just good single target DPS something that isn't all that great in big fights. Protoss units having "enough HP even without Shields" is sooo subjective. I can't argue with you on that one. That's like me saying terran units do enough damage without Stim. Shields will not have partly regenerated once kiting has ended unless your entire army consists of zealots. I don't have the numbers at hand and I'm to lazy to check liquipedia, but shields take a decent time to even start regenerating and they don't exactly regenerate fast. If by "partly regenerated" you mean they'll have regained 1/10th of their full shields, then yeah - probably. Marines are supposed to die fast. They only cost you 50 minerals afterall, but I'm not here to discuss the balance of marines (I think they're fine actually). All I'm saying is EMP is incredibly strong and this patch won't change the problematic laaaategame. I welcome it, since I will most likely get a storm or two more off midgame since it's harder to hit specific targets now if they're spread out, but I still feel like the very lategame is still strongly in favor of terran and I don't think the patch will affect that. At all. On November 11 2011 20:25 Sarang wrote: you realise there's been a ton of balance patches and protoss players have started doing better already, right? might be a good idea to wait a bit before we start nerfing terran and buffing protoss even more. Last time I checked they didn't do better. They did reasonably well in Code A this week, but I think it's way too early to say that this is a general trend. But yeah I'm in favor of waiting some time and seeing if this patch really helped. I don't think it will, but I'm willing to accept that I was wrong if the results prove it. On November 11 2011 20:08 secretary bird wrote: Do you mean a maximum shield damage by emp? like 50 or something? I think a bigger radius with less damage would be much better for terran than this much smaller radius as you could emp again if necessary and against zealots it wouldnt even be needed while it would make no difference from pre-patch for energy removal. And ghosts are expensive as terran needs those minerals and its 50% more resources than HTs. Exactly. This wouldn't be a gigantic nerf, but it would take terran to emp several times to completely remove all shields. That would take more skill and that's something I like peronally. It would still be a great spell and that's fine. Gas is the issue. Not minerals. Especially if you have mules. That just totally invalidates everything you might ever have to say about the matchup... I mean its so stupid I don't even know how someone can say it. Minerals are ALLWAYS the limiting factor in TvP. No one even takes all their gases. Terran isn't protoss. The only gas expensive unit that Terran even wants is medivacs. EVERYTHING else is at least 2-1 minerals-gas ratio (ghost/viking) 4-1 (marauder) 1-0 (marine). (gas is limiting factor in 1-1-1 all-in but that is the only tvp build where it is this case since tanks and banshees are gas heavy) | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
And mules dont matter they are just like 4 extra mineral workers so you can use your actual scvs to take 4-6 gases ASAP if you choose to do that which no terran does because terran isnt Protoss and needs those minerals. | ||
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Mandalor
Germany2362 Posts
On November 11 2011 21:12 Atreides wrote: That just totally invalidates everything you might ever have to say about the matchup... I mean its so stupid I don't even know how someone can say it. Minerals are ALLWAYS the limiting factor in TvP. No one even takes all their gases. Terran isn't protoss. The only gas expensive unit that Terran even wants is medivacs. EVERYTHING else is at least 2-1 minerals-gas ratio (ghost/viking) 4-1 (marauder) 1-0 (marine). (gas is limiting factor in 1-1-1 all-in but that is the only tvp build where it is this case since tanks and banshees are gas heavy) Yeah, you're right. I wasn't factoring in the entirety of terran unit costs. Ghosts are expensive. But they should be with the ablilites they have. I don't think that invalidates everything else I said, tho. | ||
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msjakofsky
1169 Posts
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On November 11 2011 21:28 msjakofsky wrote: just want to add that while the protoss army regains shields the ghosts also regain energy to emp again I don't think Energy regenerates as fast as Shields though. All i'm saying here btw is that EMP is absolutely neccessary in Terran lategame against any Protoss army to win. There had been several Protoss-players ( i presume ) trying to argue otherwise and crying "OFMG 1000! IMBA bla bla" . While thats alot it's still actually neccessary . Would it still work if it was over time ? Probably but it wouldn't make a like of difference overall. It does it's damage instantly and after shields are gone and there's no target with Energy to EMP it's useless unlike Storm or Fungal . | ||
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RinconH
United States512 Posts
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ThaSlayer
707 Posts
On November 11 2011 07:05 gosuMalicE wrote: Man I cannot believe the massive amount of Terran balance whine in this thread (like every other post) Just suck it up guys, basically everyone, including most terrans, agreed that emp was overpowered, why don't you just try the new version of the spell instead of bitching about it. Not mentioning that protosses and zergs had their fair share of whining too. Its part and parcel after every new patch... | ||
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Nightshake
France412 Posts
On November 11 2011 21:28 msjakofsky wrote: just want to add that while the protoss army regains shields the ghosts also regain energy to emp again Yeah and how fast ? Can't understand why Protoss is whining against Terran in late game. What about doing Colossus ? Vikings ? OK, let's do units that are bad on ground. Oh, now he is making lot of Archons, shit ! No, i have EMP, it's still ok. I lost my Vikings, and I need more Ghosts cuz i don't have EMP, but I killed the Colossus. He is doing DT's, can't use my energy for EMP, I scan ! No more scans, I have to move. He Has LOT of Archons, this is bad. Need EMP !! Gogo EMP, yaaay. 4 seconds later, 5 Colossus come in and you die. And I didnt even talk about the "Oh shit he stormed my army !". Yes, it happens, even if you're good at micro your army can die because of 3 Storms. When you're Protoss : "Oh shit, he EMP'ed my whole army, I'm gonna fucking rage on TL because im unable to split my army and I didnt heard about going back !" Seriously, you guys are ridiculous sometimes. | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
Man up and learn new strategies, but that should be easy cause all the t players are the smartest anyway. | ||
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envisioN .
United States552 Posts
On November 12 2011 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote: I actually want terrans to just shut up. What was until now OP they consider rightfully theirs and now that Blizzard took care of the problem (at least maybe) they are all OMG the NERFZ!!!. No dudes, it's called balance so that the mighty terrans come to the earthly zergs and protoss. Man up and learn new strategies, but that should be easy cause all the t players are the smartest anyway. Too bad tanks suck balls vs Protoss and Air just gets demolished by blink stalkers/HT Seriously, have you ever tried going mech vs Protoss? Or even bio mech? Chargelots rape the shit out of you. EDIT: So bio is pretty much the only viable army until the ultra late game. | ||
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