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Jacobs Ladder
United States1705 Posts
On November 12 2011 09:09 How2getMaster wrote: Double Forge is soooooo powerful now :D Greetings. Its not a big difference at all. It was always this good, this patch just directed players towards it. | ||
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epicdemic
Netherlands137 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On November 13 2011 08:06 epicdemic wrote: This clearly shows how imba TvP currently is. Note that the Protoss was ahead on upgrades. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55-Y_F-2UXY#t=13m30s This shows how retarded you are. 1) Happy was ahead in bases 2) slider clumps his army so hard that he deserves a "never-seen-such-a-clump- medal". 3) Happy had a much bigger army then slider. They were both maxed, yes, but I think alot of sliders supply was probes 4) slider basicly lost every major battle because of bad positioning. Happy was always in a much better position. Watch jinro's stream and then come back and say what a joke tvp is... | ||
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HypernovA
Canada556 Posts
On November 13 2011 08:23 Snowbear wrote: This shows how retarded you are. 1) Happy was ahead in bases 2) slider clumps his army so hard that he deserves a "never-seen-such-a-clump- medal". 3) Happy had a much bigger army then slider. They were both maxed, yes, but I think alot of sliders supply was probes 4) slider basicly lost every major battle because of bad positioning. Happy was always in a much better position. Watch jinro's stream and then come back and say what a joke tvp is... Pretty much this. Also, I heard 1 game where a Terran beats a Protoss is statistically significant. | ||
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epicdemic
Netherlands137 Posts
On November 13 2011 08:23 Snowbear wrote: This shows how retarded you are. This is how terran fanboy you are. On November 13 2011 08:23 Snowbear wrote:1) Happy was ahead in bases Besides the fact that he had barely saturated that base and they were both maxed, what does this have to do with a battle? On November 13 2011 08:23 Snowbear wrote:2) slider clumps his army so hard that he deserves a "never-seen-such-a-clump- medal". It wasn't that bad: the zealots were able to charge, the stalkers were in the back and the colossi behind them. And so what that he was clumped up? Happy clumped up his army as well. Besides that, bio doesn't deal splash. Slider had templars and sentries, but he didn't had even the slightest chance to cast feedback, storm and forcefields, even if he was able to split his army better. On November 13 2011 08:23 Snowbear wrote:3) Happy had a much bigger army then slider. They were both maxed, yes, but I think alot of sliders supply was probes Not "much" bigger. His army was a little smaller, but his better upgrades and T3 tech should be able to compensate that, which did not happen. A lot of Happy's supply was SCV's as well. On November 13 2011 08:23 Snowbear wrote:4) slider basicly lost every major battle because of bad positioning. Happy was always in a much better position. I agree that Slider had bad positioning while defending his third and his main against drops. I was solely talking about the engagement at 13:30 though. I don't think that protoss has problems in that stage of the game. Not against Terran and not against Zerg. The fact that it was so lobsided shows that TvP is severely imba in favour of Terran. Even Blizzard says that the Protoss deathball is "too strong already" while it is obviously not, especially not against Terran. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Oh, god. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On November 13 2011 08:47 epicdemic wrote: This is how terran fanboy you are. Besides the fact that he had barely saturated that base and they were both maxed, what does this have to do with a battle? It wasn't that bad: the zealots were able to charge, the stalkers were in the back and the colossi behind them. And so what that he was clumped up? Happy clumped up his army as well. Besides that, bio doesn't deal splash. Slider had templars and sentries, but he didn't had even the slightest chance to cast feedback, storm and forcefields, even if he was able to split his army better. Not "much" bigger. His army was a little smaller, but his better upgrades and T3 tech should be able to compensate that, which did not happen. A lot of Happy's supply was SCV's as well. I agree that Slider had bad positioning while defending his third and his main against drops. I was solely talking about the engagement at 13:30 though. I don't think that protoss has problems in that stage of the game. Not against Terran and not against Zerg. The fact that it was so lobsided shows that TvP is severely imba in favour of Terran. Even Blizzard says that the Protoss deathball is "too strong already" while it is obviously not, especially not against Terran. Dude seriously, did you actually watch that battle? He has a few zealots, 3 HT's (which he CLUMPED TOGETHER WITH HIS WHOLE BALL, HI THERE EMPS), some stalkers and 3 collossae. He EMPED the whole army. When slider his army was 90% dead he had like 7 stalkers and an archon left. He had 120 supply at that moment. This means he had 100 supply of probes or w/e that wasn't in his army! I saw so much bigger toss armies in the past. This one is something every terran should be able to piss on. This toss his tier 3 consisted of 3 collossae and 2 HT's. The rest were zealots, sentries and stalkers. Happy had mass ghosts, a raven, vikings, medivacs and MM. His army was WAY more superior. The fact that happy had to fight 4 more minutes to kill his opponent shows what a joke this mu atm is, yes. | ||
Nagisama
Canada4481 Posts
On November 13 2011 09:00 Snowbear wrote: Dude seriously, did you actually watch that battle? He has a few zealots, 3 HT's (which he CLUMPED TOGETHER WITH HIS WHOLE BALL, HI THERE EMPS), some stalkers and 3 collossae. He EMPED the whole army. When slider his army was 90% dead he had like 7 stalkers and an archon left. He had 120 supply at that moment. This means he had 100 supply of probes or w/e that wasn't in his army! I saw so much bigger toss armies in the past. This one is something every terran should be able to piss on. This toss his tier 3 consisted of 3 collossae and 2 HT's. The rest were zealots, sentries and stalkers. Happy had mass ghosts, a raven, vikings, medivacs and MM. His army was WAY more superior. The fact that happy had to fight 4 more minutes to kill his opponent shows what a joke this mu atm is, yes. The spread of Happy's army was SOOOO much better than Slider's. Slider wasn't that much more ahead on upgrades than you say. Slider had 2/2 ground upgrades while Happy was 2/1 for bio. Slider maybe would have won that fight if he was 3/3 upgrades and Happy was 0/0 for bio. Or, if the storms had gotten off, and Happy missed the EMP, the other side would be the one's QQ'ing because their larger army just got vapourized by storm and HT. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
Protoss is ahead in upgrade? Terran only lose 1 armor upgrade to Protoss, which is insignificant because Terran army are range, they don't take damage the same way melee units do. If that one upgrade is so significant, then this MU 0-0 Terran should have lose to 1-0 Protoss long time ago. Terran has way more anti-casters/casters, has beautiful number of viking which were positioned beautifully over the cliff, and you said he shouldn't win so one-side? Then what happens in the reverse situation? Protoss will just roll over the Terran? TLDR: the protoss unit composition, the engage position was so bad that i don't know how to fill this "that" sentence. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
Dunno what the user was trying to prove : / | ||
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SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
On November 13 2011 09:00 Snowbear wrote: Dude seriously, did you actually watch that battle? He has a few zealots, 3 HT's (which he CLUMPED TOGETHER WITH HIS WHOLE BALL, HI THERE EMPS), some stalkers and 3 collossae. He EMPED the whole army. When slider his army was 90% dead he had like 7 stalkers and an archon left. He had 120 supply at that moment. This means he had 100 supply of probes or w/e that wasn't in his army! I saw so much bigger toss armies in the past. This one is something every terran should be able to piss on. This toss his tier 3 consisted of 3 collossae and 2 HT's. The rest were zealots, sentries and stalkers. Happy had mass ghosts, a raven, vikings, medivacs and MM. His army was WAY more superior. You are correct in your analysis of why the battle went the way it did, the other guy is way off base with his "proof" that it's terran favored, though i would say that it is a prime example of how viciously effective a terran army can be. The whole protoss army barely left a dent and was massacred. Though in some instances the protoss army can do the same thing to a terran army. The point being I think it can be argued that terran can create an army that competes with the protoss late game and can beat our deathball, even with the EMP nerf, you just need more ghosts now. Anyway then you go on to say this: On November 13 2011 09:00 Snowbear wrote: The fact that happy had to fight 4 more minutes to kill his opponent shows what a joke this mu atm is, yes. Oh, so the player with 4 mining bases and 90ish probes manages to stay alive for 4 minutes and that's an indicator to you that the match up is flawed? stfu with comments like this, they don't help. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
Oh, so the player with 4 mining bases and 90ish probes manages to stay alive for 4 minutes and that's an indicator to you that the match up is flawed? stfu with comments like this, they don't help. Please indicate how the terran player would defend vs an army of the same size if it was a protoss composition after a fight like that. I.e: If the terran player got wiped out and the toss retained an army of that size and tried to push in. The game would be over 100%, he wouldn't be able to defend or anything like that protoss was able to. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
So don't feel bad if Protoss lose, he's supposed to be. | ||
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sereniity
Sweden1159 Posts
Not calling imba, just saying how stupid this SolidZeal guy is... That video is a fucking joke, if you can't see that you're retarded. | ||
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SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
Protoss is obviously designed so that they can remax faster than terran. This is a late game advantage that protoss has and it translates into them being able to stabilize much faster and possibly allow for comebacks late game, though obviously in this game it didn't matter and protoss had no chance of coming back after that battle. Terrans have the mule mechanic and strong drop capacity that allows them to make comebacks almost anytime they fall behind, hence it being referred to as the comeback race. The point being different races are different and gain or lose advantages at different points in the game. Ghost outrange everything protoss has and does substantial damage. If you are good enough, then you won't get demolished in a way that will make your slower remax matter. I think TvP balance is a bit screwy, because i think that if the terran plays well enough he should always win engagements, but landing all those emps, stim kiting, and all the other factors in engagements are hard to play out well. For the protoss it is more than you're hoping that the terran makes a mistake so that you can get those storms off or that you're able to target down the vikings, but it seems protoss has a lot more brute strength when mistakes are made. Terran making even few mistakes in the engagement can let the protoss win and because they can remax faster it makes get the edge against non-perfect terran play, making protoss imbalanced at lower levels. This is just my opinion on it of course. Also, post 250: MY LIFE FOR AUIR! | ||
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SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
On November 13 2011 09:27 Talack wrote: Please indicate how the terran player would defend vs an army of the same size if it was a protoss composition after a fight like that. I.e: If the terran player got wiped out and the toss retained an army of that size and tried to push in. The game would be over 100%, he wouldn't be able to defend or anything like that protoss was able to. Yes it's true that the protoss is more able to defend after losing their whole army better than terran can, but sub 4-5 mining bases it really does not matter. The protoss will be contained as was displayed in the game, and end up with a much worse army comp making the next battle even more of a wash. I'm sorry that the extra time it took to win the game bothers you. Try playing zerg, you'll wipe out the army and still not be able to kill them outright in most instances until hive tech. | ||
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BuddhaMonk
781 Posts
On November 12 2011 12:23 YosHGo wrote: For retreating purposes why not just left say 4-5 sentries behind your army..(you rly only need a couple for guardian shield which cant be shut down by ghosts emp shot thank god :D) Because you know anyway forcefield wont be effective when ghosts go live. So you get into a fight, get emped heavily and see you cannot win what you wanna do is just focus on killing ghosts(aka making a good trade) and fall back to your sentries and FF to delay as much as possible for regenerate and reinforce units(Same thing can apply to HT as Hero was doing amazingly well).. Even though it hurts my protoss heart - Idra said it great, protoss was getting away with the death balls for too long... We need to think "outside of the ball" :D It makes sense for HT because landing just one good storm can win the battle, but I don't know about spending almost as much gas as HT per sentry just in case you need to retreat. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11057 Posts
Only bad players lose to Toss. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
The main reason ghosts were nerfed was because of PvT but this change has also greatly altered ZvT infestor play. Consider that infestors are very large units... larger than roaches, and they do not clump together as well as High Templar or other ghosts, this makes EMP much less powerful against them. I've been playing a bunch of matches where EMP that would have absolutely destroyed me in pre-patch, now just catches maybe 3 infestors. This definitely makes ghost play very hard mid game as there are not enough resources to carpet every infestor. I think cloak snipe would be a better way to go from now on, as EMP simply does not pay for itself in ZvT anymore. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On December 07 2011 04:30 neoghaleon55 wrote: I want to bring attention to how the EMP nerf has affected Infestor play in ZvT. The main reason ghosts were nerfed was because of PvT but this change has also greatly altered ZvT infestor play. Consider that infestors are very large units... larger than roaches, and they do not clump together as well as High Templar or other ghosts, this makes EMP much less powerful against them. I've been playing a bunch of matches where EMP that would have absolutely destroyed me in pre-patch, now just catches maybe 3 infestors. This definitely makes ghost play very hard mid game as there are not enough resources to carpet every infestor. I think cloak snipe would be a better way to go from now on, as EMP simply does not pay for itself in ZvT anymore. People have been doing snipe for ages. | ||
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