|
On November 09 2011 09:44 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 08:42 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 08:37 freetgy wrote:On November 09 2011 08:17 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:50 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:42 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. battlecruisers tanks ghosts hellions RAVEN herp derp dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss.. all terran air units are great in TvP. vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT. BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF. BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place. both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency. No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss. MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball. tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit. Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ? when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time? or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts. Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk. They are not good . For their cost they don't anything to the table you don't already have. They pretty fast ( like every Unit in Sc2 ) but unlike Bio they can't be replaced that fast. I've done quite some toying around with BC's or Mech it's just not that good. Big techswitches in general are a bad idea and if you straight go for these units you'll end up trading hightech units against lowtech units which is never a good idea. This is my exact point. Your point of view is that BC/mech are bad. My point of view is that they are good, but an unneccesssary risk. There is no weakness in MMMGV that mech or BC needs to fill in the TvP match up. ghost does enough splash damage with emp that siege tanks are unneccessary. pound for pound mmm beats gateway armies. vikings shut down VR, pheonix, mothership, carrier and colossus. ghost shuts down HT / archon, sentries and immortals. Scans can deal with DTs, but 2 Ravens can bring so much to the table with just PDD that I honestly don't know why terran don't get them more. Stalkers get shut down HARD allowing the vikings to wipe out the colossus almost for free. There is nothing protoss can field that mmmgv can't deal with without too much trouble unless protoss have snuck in either hidden tech (omg, where did those 6 colossus come from!) or terran just isn't upgrading. mmmgv is stronger in a strait up fight providing they land some decent EMPs, it's more mobile, it's more cost efficient and it's safer to get. TvP is so unbalanced that terran can safely ignore most of their arsenal. it wasn't until the archon buff made zealot archon viable that terran added blue flame into the mix to devastating result. in TvT you see the entire tech tree being used. mmm into tanks. losing the tank war? switch to mass viking banshee and they respond with thors so you add in BCs. pdd's going down to prevent those viking missile barrages. TvP terran opens MMM and stays there regardless of what protoss does. i think this is the biggest flaw of all in the terran (or protoss) race, Bio is superior to almost anything the Protoss can throw at you at any time in the game. Nothing P does can force the T player to mix a different techtree (mech) because of this Terran can play with lowgas units thus can stay on fewer gases thus can utilize mules for sick timing attacks, for which the opponent has to react or he will inevitably die. and this is what definies the matchup for me sinces i play this game. Guess right, and survive for a longer game or die. Protoss needs something that helps them to keep terran in check. (Zerg has this with Banelings and Mutas) What would a Protoss build that would force a Terran into Mech ? Mech does in most cases just worse against anything the Toss can build then Bio. And it's not because Bio is so amazing more like because Mech although much more expensive is pretty underwhelming ( just like Air ). You can't force somone to build an inferior unit composition. If this statement was true then I would expect 1/1/1 to be a crap build, where instead it's just terran scratching the surface of what is possible. imho the reason terran think mech is terrible is cause they try to just mass mech instead of adding some mech into their composition. you only need 6 siege tanks, without upgrades, to do huge damage to a protoss death ball. sure, you're going to lose the tanks, but protoss will get messed up pushing into that. getting 16 tanks is a bad idea, chargelots will crush them. terran need to start doing what protoss have been doing for 6 months and work out the right number of tech to add. 10 colossus vs terran is bad, 20 vikings will 1 shot them. 2 colossus is great though. 4 vikings take forever to kill 1 colossus allowing them time to kill those marines. if you get more vikings than that the colossus die, but your bioball is too small to kill the chargelots/archons/stalkers. how much damage would 6 tanks well positioned do? how useful is FF when you've got 6 tanks hammering my deathball? If i don't FF your army and try and kill your tanks your bioball annhilates me. if i go for the bioball you kite me while the tanks do damage. banshee raven is awesome. stalkers have crap dps, are the most expensive low tier unit and until they have blink are just terrible. even with blink pdd gives you free banshee kills and until protoss get a VR terran has complete map control. This entire facet of terran possibilities are pretty much ignored because if you can max your bioball ASAP with some ghosts you're in a super commanding position. and exactly what is protoss meant to do vs BC, viking, raven. What part of the protoss army is good at dealing with that?
Here's the problem about Mixing Bio and Mech. It does well before upgrades really are a factor. And not just the conventionell upgrades. Charge and Blink is also a big factor in this once charge is done Tanks will to ALOT of friendly fire to your fragile Bio. Not to mention you can't keep up with normal upgrades in both Mech and Bio . You also can't kite if you need your Bio to protect your tanks since the tanks obviosly can't move.
I mean look at the earliest GSL's Bio/Tank was played quite alot. It just died over time because its not solid enough . Tanks are just als vulnerable to Aoe as Bio is . They barely have more HP then Mauraders but can't doge any damage when sieged but cost 100 Gas more which makes it basically impossible in 2 Bases to add Vikings/Medivacs/Ghosts in numbers big enough you need them.
And btw Masses of blinkstalkers to very well against BC Ravens. You just shouldn't engage into many PDD's . You can just outmanoever BC's and pick them off 1 by 1 . They are pretty slow even with the buff.
I already played and tried just about anything in PvT in the end it just starts and ends with Bio and thats not going to change before HOTS. Unless of course you kinda 1-1-1 on 1 or 2 Bases.
|
On November 09 2011 09:19 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 08:39 Rhine wrote:On November 09 2011 08:17 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:50 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:42 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. battlecruisers tanks ghosts hellions RAVEN herp derp dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss.. all terran air units are great in TvP. vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT. BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF. BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place. both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency. No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss. MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball. tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit. Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ? when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time? or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts. Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk. They are not good . For their cost they don't anything to the table you don't already have. They pretty fast ( like every Unit in Sc2 ) but unlike Bio they can't be replaced that fast. I've done quite some toying around with BC's or Mech it's just not that good. Big techswitches in general are a bad idea and if you straight go for these units you'll end up trading hightech units against lowtech units which is never a good idea. This is my exact point. Your point of view is that BC/mech are bad. My point of view is that they are good, but an unneccesssary risk. There is no weakness in MMMGV that mech or BC needs to fill in the TvP match up. ghost does enough splash damage with emp that siege tanks are unneccessary. pound for pound mmm beats gateway armies. vikings shut down VR, pheonix, mothership, carrier and colossus. ghost shuts down HT / archon, sentries and immortals. Scans can deal with DTs, but 2 Ravens can bring so much to the table with just PDD that I honestly don't know why terran don't get them more. Stalkers get shut down HARD allowing the vikings to wipe out the colossus almost for free. There is nothing protoss can field that mmmgv can't deal with without too much trouble unless protoss have snuck in either hidden tech (omg, where did those 6 colossus come from!) or terran just isn't upgrading. mmmgv is stronger in a strait up fight providing they land some decent EMPs, it's more mobile, it's more cost efficient and it's safer to get. TvP is so unbalanced that terran can safely ignore most of their arsenal. it wasn't until the archon buff made zealot archon viable that terran added blue flame into the mix to devastating result. in TvT you see the entire tech tree being used. mmm into tanks. losing the tank war? switch to mass viking banshee and they respond with thors so you add in BCs. pdd's going down to prevent those viking missile barrages. TvP terran opens MMM and stays there regardless of what protoss does. What?Yeah, mmmgv is good because it covers all the bases, but the standard protoss compositions cover all the same bases as well (maybe a bit less effectively at the top levels, granted). Look at all the pros who try to go mech against protoss. See what that leads to. There very well coudl be a way to play it, but right now no one knows how and they're not very good in a standard way. Bio gets worse as the game progresses, especially on large maps. You can play the same game with every single one of the races. Gone colossus? Well, the zerg can just make corruptors and own them. Gateway units? Die to roaches/ling. And it's true: getting a battlecruiser rather than lots of marauders for the same cost is not gaining you anything. Bio is good early/mid and, if played well, can kick ass late game against protoss. I'll totally take tanks being better in exchange for marauders. lol, ask zerg how good roach/hydra/corruptor is. gateway doesn't die to roach/ling. blink stalker is good vs it. sentry stalker is good. zealot immortal does well. VR mean zerg MUST tech switch or die. look at all those options vs mmm. the answer, get more mmm. PvZ is constant tech switches as zerg and protoss respond to each other. PvT is mmmgv and protoss hoping to get a good engagement.
My point is that I can certainly find compositions with any race that cover (or "counter") the composition of the opposition. One particular composition is pretty silly. I just saw Polt lose to pure blink stalkers. Does that mean stalkers are better than mmm?
You're right about the rest. The other matchups are more about tech switches (well, zerg is built for switching) whereas both races in PvT are looking to position themselves and micro well, rather than switching into anything else. Assuming that protoss is naturally behind is so silly, I think, unless you're at the top levels.
|
• Play-Time Schedule under Parental Controls now applies World of Warcraft settings to StarCraft II
Oh snap platinum league is all mine now. Get back to your homework.
|
On November 09 2011 09:50 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 09:44 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 08:42 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 08:37 freetgy wrote:On November 09 2011 08:17 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:50 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:42 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. battlecruisers tanks ghosts hellions RAVEN herp derp dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss.. all terran air units are great in TvP. vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT. BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF. BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place. both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency. No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss. MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball. tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit. Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ? when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time? or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts. Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk. They are not good . For their cost they don't anything to the table you don't already have. They pretty fast ( like every Unit in Sc2 ) but unlike Bio they can't be replaced that fast. I've done quite some toying around with BC's or Mech it's just not that good. Big techswitches in general are a bad idea and if you straight go for these units you'll end up trading hightech units against lowtech units which is never a good idea. This is my exact point. Your point of view is that BC/mech are bad. My point of view is that they are good, but an unneccesssary risk. There is no weakness in MMMGV that mech or BC needs to fill in the TvP match up. ghost does enough splash damage with emp that siege tanks are unneccessary. pound for pound mmm beats gateway armies. vikings shut down VR, pheonix, mothership, carrier and colossus. ghost shuts down HT / archon, sentries and immortals. Scans can deal with DTs, but 2 Ravens can bring so much to the table with just PDD that I honestly don't know why terran don't get them more. Stalkers get shut down HARD allowing the vikings to wipe out the colossus almost for free. There is nothing protoss can field that mmmgv can't deal with without too much trouble unless protoss have snuck in either hidden tech (omg, where did those 6 colossus come from!) or terran just isn't upgrading. mmmgv is stronger in a strait up fight providing they land some decent EMPs, it's more mobile, it's more cost efficient and it's safer to get. TvP is so unbalanced that terran can safely ignore most of their arsenal. it wasn't until the archon buff made zealot archon viable that terran added blue flame into the mix to devastating result. in TvT you see the entire tech tree being used. mmm into tanks. losing the tank war? switch to mass viking banshee and they respond with thors so you add in BCs. pdd's going down to prevent those viking missile barrages. TvP terran opens MMM and stays there regardless of what protoss does. i think this is the biggest flaw of all in the terran (or protoss) race, Bio is superior to almost anything the Protoss can throw at you at any time in the game. Nothing P does can force the T player to mix a different techtree (mech) because of this Terran can play with lowgas units thus can stay on fewer gases thus can utilize mules for sick timing attacks, for which the opponent has to react or he will inevitably die. and this is what definies the matchup for me sinces i play this game. Guess right, and survive for a longer game or die. Protoss needs something that helps them to keep terran in check. (Zerg has this with Banelings and Mutas) What would a Protoss build that would force a Terran into Mech ? Mech does in most cases just worse against anything the Toss can build then Bio. And it's not because Bio is so amazing more like because Mech although much more expensive is pretty underwhelming ( just like Air ). You can't force somone to build an inferior unit composition. If this statement was true then I would expect 1/1/1 to be a crap build, where instead it's just terran scratching the surface of what is possible. imho the reason terran think mech is terrible is cause they try to just mass mech instead of adding some mech into their composition. you only need 6 siege tanks, without upgrades, to do huge damage to a protoss death ball. sure, you're going to lose the tanks, but protoss will get messed up pushing into that. getting 16 tanks is a bad idea, chargelots will crush them. terran need to start doing what protoss have been doing for 6 months and work out the right number of tech to add. 10 colossus vs terran is bad, 20 vikings will 1 shot them. 2 colossus is great though. 4 vikings take forever to kill 1 colossus allowing them time to kill those marines. if you get more vikings than that the colossus die, but your bioball is too small to kill the chargelots/archons/stalkers. how much damage would 6 tanks well positioned do? how useful is FF when you've got 6 tanks hammering my deathball? If i don't FF your army and try and kill your tanks your bioball annhilates me. if i go for the bioball you kite me while the tanks do damage. banshee raven is awesome. stalkers have crap dps, are the most expensive low tier unit and until they have blink are just terrible. even with blink pdd gives you free banshee kills and until protoss get a VR terran has complete map control. This entire facet of terran possibilities are pretty much ignored because if you can max your bioball ASAP with some ghosts you're in a super commanding position. and exactly what is protoss meant to do vs BC, viking, raven. What part of the protoss army is good at dealing with that? Here's the problem about Mixing Bio and Mech. It does well before upgrades really are a factor. And not just the conventionell upgrades. Charge and Blink is also a big factor in this once charge is done Tanks will to ALOT of friendly fire to your fragile Bio. Not to mention you can't keep up with normal upgrades in both Mech and Bio . You also can't kite if you need your Bio to protect your tanks since the tanks obviosly can't move. And btw Masses of blinkstalkers to very well against BC Ravens. You just shouldn't engage into many PDD's . You can just outmanoever BC's and pick them off 1 by 1 . They are pretty slow even with the buff. I already played and tried just about anything in PvT in the end it just starts and ends with Bio and thats not going to change before HOTS. Unless of course you kinda 1-1-1 on 1 or 2 Bases.
honestly I think terran should encourage protoss to mass blink stalker.
think of them as reapers (50 gas cost). you can't mass blink stalkers AND tech and they are very fragile. Emp is REALLY good vs them since half their HP is shields, much more so than zealots.
if you can force protoss to over produce stalkers you're in a great spot, in exactly the same way that protoss want zerg to over produce hydras and then just kill them with 2 colossus. try 2 port banshee into heavy marauder play.
on the bio/tank thing, have you tryed using the tanks as bait instead of protecting them? use the tanks to get protoss out of position and kill them with the bio. put the tanks where you want the protoss army to be for a good surround. zealots will charge into them, seperating them from the deathball leaving the HT/colossus without their meatshield.
my terran buddy had a lot of hate for BFH until he realised that they are 100min banelings. you don't try and keep them alive, you send in a bunch to kill / weaken zealots and then deliver the bioball hammer blow. protoss without zealots get utterly destroyed by the bio ball.
|
Why is everyone complaining about splash damage? 1.5 radius is still amazing for what EMP does, and have you guys thought that terran doesn't have a lot of splash options against protoss because they're purposedly not suppose to? The thought of MMM with splash support PvT makes me cringe!
|
On November 09 2011 10:14 ffadicted wrote:
Why is everyone complaining about splash damage? 1.5 radius is still amazing for what EMP does, and have you guys thought that terran doesn't have a lot of splash options against protoss because they're purposedly not suppose to? The thought of MMM with splash support PvT makes me cringe!
I dont think very many are complaining about the radius decrease. Recent pages have been the same terran OP talk 
|
On November 09 2011 10:08 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 09:50 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 09:44 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 08:42 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 08:37 freetgy wrote:On November 09 2011 08:17 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:50 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:42 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:
[quote]
battlecruisers
tanks
ghosts
hellions
RAVEN
herp derp
dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game
btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss.. all terran air units are great in TvP. vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT. BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF. BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place. both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency. No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss. MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball. tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit. Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ? when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time? or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts. Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk. They are not good . For their cost they don't anything to the table you don't already have. They pretty fast ( like every Unit in Sc2 ) but unlike Bio they can't be replaced that fast. I've done quite some toying around with BC's or Mech it's just not that good. Big techswitches in general are a bad idea and if you straight go for these units you'll end up trading hightech units against lowtech units which is never a good idea. This is my exact point. Your point of view is that BC/mech are bad. My point of view is that they are good, but an unneccesssary risk. There is no weakness in MMMGV that mech or BC needs to fill in the TvP match up. ghost does enough splash damage with emp that siege tanks are unneccessary. pound for pound mmm beats gateway armies. vikings shut down VR, pheonix, mothership, carrier and colossus. ghost shuts down HT / archon, sentries and immortals. Scans can deal with DTs, but 2 Ravens can bring so much to the table with just PDD that I honestly don't know why terran don't get them more. Stalkers get shut down HARD allowing the vikings to wipe out the colossus almost for free. There is nothing protoss can field that mmmgv can't deal with without too much trouble unless protoss have snuck in either hidden tech (omg, where did those 6 colossus come from!) or terran just isn't upgrading. mmmgv is stronger in a strait up fight providing they land some decent EMPs, it's more mobile, it's more cost efficient and it's safer to get. TvP is so unbalanced that terran can safely ignore most of their arsenal. it wasn't until the archon buff made zealot archon viable that terran added blue flame into the mix to devastating result. in TvT you see the entire tech tree being used. mmm into tanks. losing the tank war? switch to mass viking banshee and they respond with thors so you add in BCs. pdd's going down to prevent those viking missile barrages. TvP terran opens MMM and stays there regardless of what protoss does. i think this is the biggest flaw of all in the terran (or protoss) race, Bio is superior to almost anything the Protoss can throw at you at any time in the game. Nothing P does can force the T player to mix a different techtree (mech) because of this Terran can play with lowgas units thus can stay on fewer gases thus can utilize mules for sick timing attacks, for which the opponent has to react or he will inevitably die. and this is what definies the matchup for me sinces i play this game. Guess right, and survive for a longer game or die. Protoss needs something that helps them to keep terran in check. (Zerg has this with Banelings and Mutas) What would a Protoss build that would force a Terran into Mech ? Mech does in most cases just worse against anything the Toss can build then Bio. And it's not because Bio is so amazing more like because Mech although much more expensive is pretty underwhelming ( just like Air ). You can't force somone to build an inferior unit composition. If this statement was true then I would expect 1/1/1 to be a crap build, where instead it's just terran scratching the surface of what is possible. imho the reason terran think mech is terrible is cause they try to just mass mech instead of adding some mech into their composition. you only need 6 siege tanks, without upgrades, to do huge damage to a protoss death ball. sure, you're going to lose the tanks, but protoss will get messed up pushing into that. getting 16 tanks is a bad idea, chargelots will crush them. terran need to start doing what protoss have been doing for 6 months and work out the right number of tech to add. 10 colossus vs terran is bad, 20 vikings will 1 shot them. 2 colossus is great though. 4 vikings take forever to kill 1 colossus allowing them time to kill those marines. if you get more vikings than that the colossus die, but your bioball is too small to kill the chargelots/archons/stalkers. how much damage would 6 tanks well positioned do? how useful is FF when you've got 6 tanks hammering my deathball? If i don't FF your army and try and kill your tanks your bioball annhilates me. if i go for the bioball you kite me while the tanks do damage. banshee raven is awesome. stalkers have crap dps, are the most expensive low tier unit and until they have blink are just terrible. even with blink pdd gives you free banshee kills and until protoss get a VR terran has complete map control. This entire facet of terran possibilities are pretty much ignored because if you can max your bioball ASAP with some ghosts you're in a super commanding position. and exactly what is protoss meant to do vs BC, viking, raven. What part of the protoss army is good at dealing with that? Here's the problem about Mixing Bio and Mech. It does well before upgrades really are a factor. And not just the conventionell upgrades. Charge and Blink is also a big factor in this once charge is done Tanks will to ALOT of friendly fire to your fragile Bio. Not to mention you can't keep up with normal upgrades in both Mech and Bio . You also can't kite if you need your Bio to protect your tanks since the tanks obviosly can't move. And btw Masses of blinkstalkers to very well against BC Ravens. You just shouldn't engage into many PDD's . You can just outmanoever BC's and pick them off 1 by 1 . They are pretty slow even with the buff. I already played and tried just about anything in PvT in the end it just starts and ends with Bio and thats not going to change before HOTS. Unless of course you kinda 1-1-1 on 1 or 2 Bases. honestly I think terran should encourage protoss to mass blink stalker. think of them as reapers (50 gas cost). you can't mass blink stalkers AND tech and they are very fragile. Emp is REALLY good vs them since half their HP is shields, much more so than zealots. if you can force protoss to over produce stalkers you're in a great spot, in exactly the same way that protoss want zerg to over produce hydras and then just kill them with 2 colossus. try 2 port banshee into heavy marauder play. on the bio/tank thing, have you tryed using the tanks as bait instead of protecting them? use the tanks to get protoss out of position and kill them with the bio. put the tanks where you want the protoss army to be for a good surround. zealots will charge into them, seperating them from the deathball leaving the HT/colossus without their meatshield. my terran buddy had a lot of hate for BFH until he realised that they are 100min banelings. you don't try and keep them alive, you send in a bunch to kill / weaken zealots and then deliver the bioball hammer blow. protoss without zealots get utterly destroyed by the bio ball.
Unit that cost 125 Gas , can't move and die pretty fast as bait doesn't sound like a good idea since you need your gas for alot of different stuff before you get to 4 Bases. And it's not like Chargelots charge that far away from the mainarmy. They're also pretty beefy they aren't dead before the rest of the army arrives.
Helions well once the Toss has HT and Colossi Helions are just useless they die to fast to archive anything suiciding them. They won't kill the chargelots before they die , even before the nerf they weren't all that great in TvP . They did well against many Zealots but alot of times died too fast before archiving anything. There's a reason why these Battle Helions will be added normal Helions just lose their worth once enough splash is out kiting with them is kinda impossible with the way they attack.
2 Port Banshee into Marauder sounds alot like 1-Max 2 Base Play. I can just 1-1-1 if i want that , don't think i lost one game in the last 6 months with it ...
|
EU is down. Does that mean we'll get the new patch?
|
My balance idea: add a +25 starting energy upgrade to protoss, but to the SENTRY!! Not an offensive upgrade at all, but it helps slightly with dealing with drops as well as making sentries more worthwile late game for their gas cost.
|
On November 09 2011 12:05 klaxen wrote:
My balance idea: add a +25 starting energy upgrade to protoss, but to the SENTRY!! Not an offensive upgrade at all, but it helps slightly with dealing with drops as well as making sentries more worthwile late game for their gas cost.
Mmmm, warp in guardian shields.
I like it
|
On November 09 2011 08:24 s3rp wrote:And Raven are rarely get because on low bases you don't have to gas to add in some Ravens
This statement.
Something is wrong about it.
*checks numerous long PvTs where T floats 2k+ gas*
Well, maybe he doesn't need to get them on low bases?
|
my balance ideas
orbital command can't lift off
shield upgrades reduce emp damage.
|
Anyone who can not do these insanely intensive apm maneuvers will get crushed IE everyone below the upper levels. Protoss on the other hand is much different in their race design. Yes you have to storm and feedback and forcefield I guess, but its nothing like the micro terran players have to do.
rofl, terrans are so cute when they talk about other races without any high level experience
User was warned for this post
|
On November 09 2011 09:44 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 08:42 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 08:37 freetgy wrote:On November 09 2011 08:17 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:50 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:42 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. battlecruisers tanks ghosts hellions RAVEN herp derp dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss.. all terran air units are great in TvP. vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT. BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF. BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place. both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency. No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss. MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball. tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit. Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ? when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time? or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts. Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk. They are not good . For their cost they don't anything to the table you don't already have. They pretty fast ( like every Unit in Sc2 ) but unlike Bio they can't be replaced that fast. I've done quite some toying around with BC's or Mech it's just not that good. Big techswitches in general are a bad idea and if you straight go for these units you'll end up trading hightech units against lowtech units which is never a good idea. This is my exact point. Your point of view is that BC/mech are bad. My point of view is that they are good, but an unneccesssary risk. There is no weakness in MMMGV that mech or BC needs to fill in the TvP match up. ghost does enough splash damage with emp that siege tanks are unneccessary. pound for pound mmm beats gateway armies. vikings shut down VR, pheonix, mothership, carrier and colossus. ghost shuts down HT / archon, sentries and immortals. Scans can deal with DTs, but 2 Ravens can bring so much to the table with just PDD that I honestly don't know why terran don't get them more. Stalkers get shut down HARD allowing the vikings to wipe out the colossus almost for free. There is nothing protoss can field that mmmgv can't deal with without too much trouble unless protoss have snuck in either hidden tech (omg, where did those 6 colossus come from!) or terran just isn't upgrading. mmmgv is stronger in a strait up fight providing they land some decent EMPs, it's more mobile, it's more cost efficient and it's safer to get. TvP is so unbalanced that terran can safely ignore most of their arsenal. it wasn't until the archon buff made zealot archon viable that terran added blue flame into the mix to devastating result. in TvT you see the entire tech tree being used. mmm into tanks. losing the tank war? switch to mass viking banshee and they respond with thors so you add in BCs. pdd's going down to prevent those viking missile barrages. TvP terran opens MMM and stays there regardless of what protoss does. i think this is the biggest flaw of all in the terran (or protoss) race, Bio is superior to almost anything the Protoss can throw at you at any time in the game. Nothing P does can force the T player to mix a different techtree (mech) because of this Terran can play with lowgas units thus can stay on fewer gases thus can utilize mules for sick timing attacks, for which the opponent has to react or he will inevitably die. and this is what definies the matchup for me sinces i play this game. Guess right, and survive for a longer game or die. Protoss needs something that helps them to keep terran in check. (Zerg has this with Banelings and Mutas) What would a Protoss build that would force a Terran into Mech ? Mech does in most cases just worse against anything the Toss can build then Bio. And it's not because Bio is so amazing more like because Mech although much more expensive is pretty underwhelming ( just like Air ). You can't force somone to build an inferior unit composition. If this statement was true then I would expect 1/1/1 to be a crap build, where instead it's just terran scratching the surface of what is possible. imho the reason terran think mech is terrible is cause they try to just mass mech instead of adding some mech into their composition. you only need 6 siege tanks, without upgrades, to do huge damage to a protoss death ball. sure, you're going to lose the tanks, but protoss will get messed up pushing into that. getting 16 tanks is a bad idea, chargelots will crush them. terran need to start doing what protoss have been doing for 6 months and work out the right number of tech to add. 10 colossus vs terran is bad, 20 vikings will 1 shot them. 2 colossus is great though. 4 vikings take forever to kill 1 colossus allowing them time to kill those marines. if you get more vikings than that the colossus die, but your bioball is too small to kill the chargelots/archons/stalkers. how much damage would 6 tanks well positioned do? how useful is FF when you've got 6 tanks hammering my deathball? If i don't FF your army and try and kill your tanks your bioball annhilates me. if i go for the bioball you kite me while the tanks do damage. banshee raven is awesome. stalkers have crap dps, are the most expensive low tier unit and until they have blink are just terrible. even with blink pdd gives you free banshee kills and until protoss get a VR terran has complete map control. This entire facet of terran possibilities are pretty much ignored because if you can max your bioball ASAP with some ghosts you're in a super commanding position. and exactly what is protoss meant to do vs BC, viking, raven. What part of the protoss army is good at dealing with that?
Except for the part where tanks splash on to the bio, zealots only take 35 damage/shot, they're immobile as fuck, and take 3 food. Bio already has difficulty matching up against toss when they go for straight up fights, why would you want the drop-heavy play to be slowed by having to baby tanks around the map?
|
On November 09 2011 05:56 woody60707 wrote:Damn. HuK is going to miss the patch update in his GSL match by a day. 
that happened last time too. and he got 111'd twice by virus and probably would have held with the immortal buff.
that match made me such a sad zealot.
|
Are EU and NA up? I've only checked SEA so far
|
On November 09 2011 12:28 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 08:24 s3rp wrote:And Raven are rarely get because on low bases you don't have to gas to add in some Ravens This statement. Something is wrong about it. *checks numerous long PvTs where T floats 2k+ gas* Well, maybe he doesn't need to get them on low bases?
No Terran will float 2k+ Gas on 2 Bases When he still needs Upgrades, Vikings and Ghosts . Only in the later stages when Ravens don't have that much utility anymore.
|
Just more reasons for early zealot with upgrades killing off my expansions and warp prism zealots killing my main and since lings dont do much against zealots anyway looks like im going to be doing roach from now on in ZvP :-/
|
On November 09 2011 16:57 TheAntZ wrote:
Are EU and NA up? I've only checked SEA so far
EU was updated this night (it's morning currently).
I don't know about NA.
|
On November 09 2011 12:34 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +Anyone who can not do these insanely intensive apm maneuvers will get crushed IE everyone below the upper levels. Protoss on the other hand is much different in their race design. Yes you have to storm and feedback and forcefield I guess, but its nothing like the micro terran players have to do. rofl, terrans are so cute when they talk about other races without any high level experience
What counts as high level experience?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
