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On November 09 2011 08:42 s3rp wrote:
What would a Protoss build that would force a Terran into Mech ? Mech does in most cases just worse against anything the Toss can build then Bio.
your right and wrong at the same time.
Mech does not worse, Bio always does better, because Protoss has nothing that makes bio worse then mech until very very lategame. (despite Storm and Colossus usually beeing teched so fast!)
Terran Race has this because they have a Mech Units that can just outrange Bio, and terran race is less vulnerable to drops.
Zerg has this because Banelings make pure Bio Play very risky
both forces the other Terran player to adapt into a more gasheavy mech or bio mech composition in those matchups.
There is nothing that makes Terran think twice of going pure Bio in PvT.
Mech is just totally unexplored, because Bio is alot easier in the end.
If Protoss had something on T2 that made Bio less effective, Mech would be alot more common because it is the better option for mid/lategame.
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On November 09 2011 07:42 Baum wrote:
This gives me reason to really work on my TvP. Since I took a 2 month break from Sc2 I can't seem to win a single TvP while my TvZ is nearly as good as it was before and my TvT even feels better than my TvP now. The Warp Prism buff has made the match up much more difficult and so will the ghost nerf.
I wonder if blizz realizes that this statement holds true to basically every terran except the top of GM and GSL. The problem is not with terran, it is with the race design (not balance persay) of protoss. If their goal is to balance around the GSL, fine, but I hope they realize this makes TVP more impossible for anything less than the upper tip of the iceberg in terms of terran players.
TVP has been my worst MU since silver and this patch will certainly make that worse, although I cheese almost every game anyways because macro games are pointless, and I know many terrans who do the same.
To the above poster I have tried mech and there is 1 main problem, chargelots. BF helions are complete garbage vs chargelots even though on paper they are supposed to counter them. If you go into an actual game and try it you will find otherwise. They just dont do the damage necessary (BF nerf made them utter garbage, before they were just bad). On top of this your tanks will all be splashing your helions which as everyone knows are flimsy as hell and thats that. I suppose this is the reasoning behind battle helion but who knows when HOTS comes out, everything will be different.
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On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts.
Hunter-Seeker missile.
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On November 09 2011 09:00 ThunderGod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. Hunter-Seeker missile.
Siege Tanks
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United States7483 Posts
On November 09 2011 09:00 ThunderGod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. Hunter-Seeker missile.
Blue flame hellions annihilate large groups of chargelots. They do splash.
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On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts.
that's because terran NEEDS no lategame unit besides ghosts
late game protoss blanket emps
late game zerg mass snipes +emp those infestors
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On November 09 2011 08:58 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:42 Baum wrote:
This gives me reason to really work on my TvP. Since I took a 2 month break from Sc2 I can't seem to win a single TvP while my TvZ is nearly as good as it was before and my TvT even feels better than my TvP now. The Warp Prism buff has made the match up much more difficult and so will the ghost nerf. I wonder if blizz realizes that this statement holds true to basically every terran except the top of GM and GSL. The problem is not with terran, it is with the race design (not balance persay) of protoss. If their goal is to balance around the GSL, fine, but I hope they realize this makes TVP more impossible for anything less than the upper tip of the iceberg in terms of terran players. TVP has been my worst MU since silver and this patch will certainly make that worse, although I cheese almost every game anyways because macro games are pointless, and I know many terrans who do the same.
Then don't try to emulate what the "Pro players" are doing if you can't pull it off.
Let's face, up to low master, micro / positionings / builds don't matter at all.
You can win by pure macro. Macro better, win the games.
It's like in BW, if you're at D, you didn't try to pull off builds / stuff Bisu did for instance.
If you had problems with a matchup, many chose to search for their own solutions and builds.
At silver, you can play mech very fine. Just find a way to do it. Tanks / Thors for instance should work fantastic.
I don't understand why low level players want to emulate a playstyle they mechanically can't pull off and then complain
and point out that balance change Blizzard does for the very top level could break "their" experience.
That's the magic behind the pro scene, they do stuff you can't. Yet many speak in the hyperbole that their opponents in silver manage to pull off the things they see Protoss doing in the GSL.
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Nerf viking range at least, it's ridiculous. Just by one or two range points, they can snipe colossi far too easily, whereas Zerg has to bring this fat corruptors within dying range to do the same thing. Protoss has nothing equivalent, which is why PvP turns into colossi battles and become kind of lame.
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On November 09 2011 08:50 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 08:42 s3rp wrote:
What would a Protoss build that would force a Terran into Mech ? Mech does in most cases just worse against anything the Toss can build then Bio.
your right and wrong at the same time. Mech does not worse, Bio always does better, because Protoss has nothing that makes bio worse then mech until very very lategame. (despite Storm and Colossus usually beeing teched so fast!) Terran Race has this because they have a Mech Units that can just outrange Bio, and terran race is less vulnerable to drops. Zerg has this because Banelings make pure Bio Play very risky both forces the other Terran player to adapt into a more gasheavy mech or bio mech composition in those matchups. There is nothing that makes Terran think twice of going pure Bio in PvT. Mech is just totally unexplored, because Bio is alot easier in the end. If Protoss had something on T2 that made Bio less effective, Mech would be alot more common because it is the better option for mid/lategame.
I respectfully disagree with that. Mech has big weaknesses. Once tanks are naked they die very in every MU. Problem is that Terran right now has nothing to guard Siegetanks effectively enough in TvP in the later stages. Helions don't cut it Thors well can't be massed in big enough numbers . Especially since you'll lose your guarding units no matter what. And replacing Thors well takes ages.
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On November 09 2011 09:05 lowercase wrote:
Nerf viking range at least, it's ridiculous. Just by one or two range points, they can snipe colossi far too easily, whereas Zerg has to bring this fat corruptors within dying range to do the same thing. Protoss has nothing equivalent, which is why PvP turns into colossi battles and become kind of lame.
Vikings 0 Armor 125HP , Corrupter 2 Armor 200 HP ..... . You'd need to seriously buff Vikings in HP and Armor to change that. I'd argue Corrupter should be changend to be more like Vikings and not the other way around .
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On November 09 2011 08:39 Rhine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 08:17 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:50 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:42 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. battlecruisers tanks ghosts hellions RAVEN herp derp dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss.. all terran air units are great in TvP. vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT. BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF. BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place. both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency. No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss. MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball. tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit. Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ? when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time? or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts. Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk. They are not good . For their cost they don't anything to the table you don't already have. They pretty fast ( like every Unit in Sc2 ) but unlike Bio they can't be replaced that fast. I've done quite some toying around with BC's or Mech it's just not that good. Big techswitches in general are a bad idea and if you straight go for these units you'll end up trading hightech units against lowtech units which is never a good idea. This is my exact point. Your point of view is that BC/mech are bad. My point of view is that they are good, but an unneccesssary risk. There is no weakness in MMMGV that mech or BC needs to fill in the TvP match up. ghost does enough splash damage with emp that siege tanks are unneccessary. pound for pound mmm beats gateway armies. vikings shut down VR, pheonix, mothership, carrier and colossus. ghost shuts down HT / archon, sentries and immortals. Scans can deal with DTs, but 2 Ravens can bring so much to the table with just PDD that I honestly don't know why terran don't get them more. Stalkers get shut down HARD allowing the vikings to wipe out the colossus almost for free. There is nothing protoss can field that mmmgv can't deal with without too much trouble unless protoss have snuck in either hidden tech (omg, where did those 6 colossus come from!) or terran just isn't upgrading. mmmgv is stronger in a strait up fight providing they land some decent EMPs, it's more mobile, it's more cost efficient and it's safer to get. TvP is so unbalanced that terran can safely ignore most of their arsenal. it wasn't until the archon buff made zealot archon viable that terran added blue flame into the mix to devastating result. in TvT you see the entire tech tree being used. mmm into tanks. losing the tank war? switch to mass viking banshee and they respond with thors so you add in BCs. pdd's going down to prevent those viking missile barrages. TvP terran opens MMM and stays there regardless of what protoss does. What?Yeah, mmmgv is good because it covers all the bases, but the standard protoss compositions cover all the same bases as well (maybe a bit less effectively at the top levels, granted). Look at all the pros who try to go mech against protoss. See what that leads to. There very well coudl be a way to play it, but right now no one knows how and they're not very good in a standard way. Bio gets worse as the game progresses, especially on large maps. You can play the same game with every single one of the races. Gone colossus? Well, the zerg can just make corruptors and own them. Gateway units? Die to roaches/ling. And it's true: getting a battlecruiser rather than lots of marauders for the same cost is not gaining you anything. Bio is good early/mid and, if played well, can kick ass late game against protoss. I'll totally take tanks being better in exchange for marauders.
lol, ask zerg how good roach/hydra/corruptor is.
gateway doesn't die to roach/ling. blink stalker is good vs it. sentry stalker is good. zealot immortal does well. VR mean zerg MUST tech switch or die.
look at all those options vs mmm. the answer, get more mmm. PvZ is constant tech switches as zerg and protoss respond to each other. PvT is mmmgv and protoss hoping to get a good engagement.
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On November 09 2011 09:03 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 08:58 Raambo11 wrote:On November 09 2011 07:42 Baum wrote:
This gives me reason to really work on my TvP. Since I took a 2 month break from Sc2 I can't seem to win a single TvP while my TvZ is nearly as good as it was before and my TvT even feels better than my TvP now. The Warp Prism buff has made the match up much more difficult and so will the ghost nerf. I wonder if blizz realizes that this statement holds true to basically every terran except the top of GM and GSL. The problem is not with terran, it is with the race design (not balance persay) of protoss. If their goal is to balance around the GSL, fine, but I hope they realize this makes TVP more impossible for anything less than the upper tip of the iceberg in terms of terran players. TVP has been my worst MU since silver and this patch will certainly make that worse, although I cheese almost every game anyways because macro games are pointless, and I know many terrans who do the same. Then don't try to emulate what the "Pro players" are doing if you can't pull it off. Let's face, up to low master, micro / positionings / builds don't matter at all. You can win by pure macro. Macro better, win the games. It's like in BW, if you're at D, you didn't try to pull off builds / stuff Bisu did for instance. If you had problems with a matchup, many chose to search for their own solutions and builds. At silver, you can play mech very fine. Just find a way to do it. Tanks / Thors for instance should work fantastic. I don't understand why low level players want to emulate a playstyle they mechanically can't pull off and then complain and point out that balance change Blizzard does for the very top level could break "their" experience. That's the magic behind the pro scene, they do stuff you can't. Yet many speak in the hyperbole that their opponents in silver manage to pull off the things they see Protoss doing in the GSL.
I'm not silver, I'm mid master, I don't think your understanding what Im trying to say. What I have always thought is that Terran requires much more skill at the top levels, terran players are not better persay, it is just their race has a higher skillcap. Only at the top will you see perfect emp's while kiting, spreading, and focus firing with vikings on the collosi. Anyone who can not do these insanely intensive apm maneuvers will get crushed IE everyone below the upper levels. Protoss on the other hand is much different in their race design. Yes you have to storm and feedback and forcefield I guess, but its nothing like the micro terran players have to do.
In many cases if your EMP is not perfect and you miss a HT while your army is too close, 1-2 storms will instantly gg you.
To your later point I dont really get what your saying either, Mech is not played by the higher level terran at all because its horrible based on the points I provided previously (chargelots, NO BF HELIONS DO NOT HARD COUNTER WHATSOEVER GO TRY IT IN A GAME).
On to the thinking that micro doesn't matter at all at the lower levels, I vehemently disagree because in some specific matchups it does. I can remember many times where I was far ahead of my protoss opponent in supply as well as upgrades (macro has always been my strength) IE like 200 supply to 150, me being 3/3 vs 1/1 (no exaggeration) I would get off a couple emps but would get crushed by a few storms as my units were not perfectly spread.
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You guys have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you think BCs, Thors, Ravens and tanks are actually good in TvP lategame. Its not that it isnt that great or that there is no need, its just bad and thats a fact so get off your high horse.
And hellions rape chargelots? Yea right, you have never ever tried it this is theorycrafting at its best.
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I actually think Ravens have a tonne of potential in every matchup.
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On November 09 2011 09:24 secretary bird wrote:
You guys have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you think BCs, Thors, Ravens and tanks are actually good in TvP lategame. Its not that it isnt that great or that there is no need, its just bad and thats a fact so get off your high horse.
And hellions rape chargelots? Yea right, you have never ever tried it this is theorycrafting at its best.
What people really need to do is play the race before you comment about it. Playing another race even at lower levels really opens your eyes about how the mechanics of that race work. Something may be good on paper but you can't say its good unless you try it in game and it works.
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On November 09 2011 09:29 Shiori wrote:
I actually think Ravens have a tonne of potential in every matchup.
What the use of Ravens if the opponent rarely has any units with missile attacks ? Autoturrets are very gimmicky they live for ages but don't actually do alot . Seeker Missile takes a decent amount of Ravens and a buttloard of gas and even then it not all that great against grround units.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 09 2011 09:24 secretary bird wrote:
You guys have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you think BCs, Thors, Ravens and tanks are actually good in TvP lategame. Its not that it isnt that great or that there is no need, its just bad and thats a fact so get off your high horse.
And hellions rape chargelots? Yea right, you have never ever tried it this is theorycrafting at its best.
Yeah, every time my large heavily upgraged chargelot force gets owned by upgraded blueflame hellions I die a little inside. And yes, I play at a mid-masters to high masters level.
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On November 09 2011 09:39 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 09:24 secretary bird wrote:
You guys have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you think BCs, Thors, Ravens and tanks are actually good in TvP lategame. Its not that it isnt that great or that there is no need, its just bad and thats a fact so get off your high horse.
And hellions rape chargelots? Yea right, you have never ever tried it this is theorycrafting at its best. Yeah, every time my large heavily upgraged chargelot force gets owned by upgraded blueflame hellions I die a little inside. And yes, I play at a mid-masters to high masters level.
And why did you build mass Zealots against Mass BFH ? Thats like building Zerglings against them. In big battles with many different kind of units Helions are bad . They may decent against the Zealots before dieng but that about it.
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On November 09 2011 08:42 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 08:37 freetgy wrote:On November 09 2011 08:17 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:50 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:42 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. battlecruisers tanks ghosts hellions RAVEN herp derp dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss.. all terran air units are great in TvP. vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT. BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF. BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place. both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency. No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss. MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball. tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit. Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ? when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time? or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts. Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk. They are not good . For their cost they don't anything to the table you don't already have. They pretty fast ( like every Unit in Sc2 ) but unlike Bio they can't be replaced that fast. I've done quite some toying around with BC's or Mech it's just not that good. Big techswitches in general are a bad idea and if you straight go for these units you'll end up trading hightech units against lowtech units which is never a good idea. This is my exact point. Your point of view is that BC/mech are bad. My point of view is that they are good, but an unneccesssary risk. There is no weakness in MMMGV that mech or BC needs to fill in the TvP match up. ghost does enough splash damage with emp that siege tanks are unneccessary. pound for pound mmm beats gateway armies. vikings shut down VR, pheonix, mothership, carrier and colossus. ghost shuts down HT / archon, sentries and immortals. Scans can deal with DTs, but 2 Ravens can bring so much to the table with just PDD that I honestly don't know why terran don't get them more. Stalkers get shut down HARD allowing the vikings to wipe out the colossus almost for free. There is nothing protoss can field that mmmgv can't deal with without too much trouble unless protoss have snuck in either hidden tech (omg, where did those 6 colossus come from!) or terran just isn't upgrading. mmmgv is stronger in a strait up fight providing they land some decent EMPs, it's more mobile, it's more cost efficient and it's safer to get. TvP is so unbalanced that terran can safely ignore most of their arsenal. it wasn't until the archon buff made zealot archon viable that terran added blue flame into the mix to devastating result. in TvT you see the entire tech tree being used. mmm into tanks. losing the tank war? switch to mass viking banshee and they respond with thors so you add in BCs. pdd's going down to prevent those viking missile barrages. TvP terran opens MMM and stays there regardless of what protoss does. i think this is the biggest flaw of all in the terran (or protoss) race, Bio is superior to almost anything the Protoss can throw at you at any time in the game. Nothing P does can force the T player to mix a different techtree (mech) because of this Terran can play with lowgas units thus can stay on fewer gases thus can utilize mules for sick timing attacks, for which the opponent has to react or he will inevitably die. and this is what definies the matchup for me sinces i play this game. Guess right, and survive for a longer game or die. Protoss needs something that helps them to keep terran in check. (Zerg has this with Banelings and Mutas) What would a Protoss build that would force a Terran into Mech ? Mech does in most cases just worse against anything the Toss can build then Bio. And it's not because Bio is so amazing more like because Mech although much more expensive is pretty underwhelming ( just like Air ). You can't force somone to build an inferior unit composition.
If this statement was true then I would expect 1/1/1 to be a crap build, where instead it's just terran scratching the surface of what is possible. imho the reason terran think mech is terrible is cause they try to just mass mech instead of adding some mech into their composition. you only need 6 siege tanks, without upgrades, to do huge damage to a protoss death ball. sure, you're going to lose the tanks, but protoss will get messed up pushing into that.
getting 16 tanks is a bad idea, chargelots will crush them.
terran need to start doing what protoss have been doing for 6 months and work out the right number of tech to add. 10 colossus vs terran is bad, 20 vikings will 1 shot them. 2 colossus is great though. 4 vikings take forever to kill 1 colossus allowing them time to kill those marines. if you get more vikings than that the colossus die, but your bioball is too small to kill the chargelots/archons/stalkers.
how much damage would 6 tanks well positioned do?
how useful is FF when you've got 6 tanks hammering my deathball?
If i don't FF your army and try and kill your tanks your bioball annhilates me.
if i go for the bioball you kite me while the tanks do damage.
banshee raven is awesome. stalkers have crap dps, are the most expensive low tier unit and until they have blink are just terrible. even with blink pdd gives you free banshee kills and until protoss get a VR terran has complete map control. This entire facet of terran possibilities are pretty much ignored because if you can max your bioball ASAP with some ghosts you're in a super commanding position. and exactly what is protoss meant to do vs BC, viking, raven.
What part of the protoss army is good at dealing with that?
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On November 09 2011 09:43 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 09:39 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 09:24 secretary bird wrote:
You guys have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you think BCs, Thors, Ravens and tanks are actually good in TvP lategame. Its not that it isnt that great or that there is no need, its just bad and thats a fact so get off your high horse.
And hellions rape chargelots? Yea right, you have never ever tried it this is theorycrafting at its best. Yeah, every time my large heavily upgraged chargelot force gets owned by upgraded blueflame hellions I die a little inside. And yes, I play at a mid-masters to high masters level. And why did you build mass Zealots against Mass BFH ? Thats like building Zerglings against them. In big battles with many different kind of units Helions are bad . They may decent against the Zealots before dieng but that about it.
zealot are the only mineral dump available.
if protoss get a gold base up and running they have to build zealots or they will build up a huge mineral bank. either that or cannons 
also 2 reactor factories can mass BFH pretty darn quickly if you see someone going zealot archon and apart from the facility cost it's pure mins. every mule == 3 more hellions.
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EPT
