|
one thing i find curious about the upgrade buff is that protoss not only has the most all encompassing upgrades ie they affet all ground units and shields affect all buildings and air units, they are also the fastest upgrades in the game because of chronoboost... im not saying it will break the game but i do feel that change to be not necessary... ghost change seems diffrent although i was trying to emp infesters which was much more difficult...
|
Can anybody tell me why the Milestones for Season 3 are not added yet and when they plan to do so?
|
Hopefully next patch will adress the ghost's problems in tvz .. such as killing all your stuff in 10sec. And for the guys that think that ghosts are only 'ok' against ultras, then you don't know how to play. Even at high master level, mass ghost kill zergs.
|
Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 09 2011 07:15 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:46 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 18:45 avilo wrote:On November 08 2011 18:43 Heavenly wrote:On November 08 2011 18:38 avilo wrote:
Pretty sure they will revert the forge changes in 1-2 weeks. You're about to see ridiculous protoss dominance. EMP is iffy as well. Lol, the forge changes. Yeah, that one extra stalker or so is going to change the midgame so much. You get the upgrades even faster than you currently would. You don't even need to understand basic math or know how to read a clock to understand that. How would I get upgrades faster when the build time is unchanged? You have a red hammer next to your name, i expect more from you...you get the upgrades more quickly because they are cheaper...you will have enough money sooner...you will be able to research the upgrades earlier on in the game... *facepalm*
Are you even serious?
I still don't understand how people think that the upgrades will be made faster, protoss players made them continuously anyways, so they will not finish faster.
|
On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. battlecruisers tanks ghosts hellions RAVEN herp derp dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss..
all terran air units are great in TvP.
vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT.
BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF.
BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place.
both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency.
No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss.
MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball.
tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit.
Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ?
when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time?
or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts?
the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts.
Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk.
|
This gives me reason to really work on my TvP. Since I took a 2 month break from Sc2 I can't seem to win a single TvP while my TvZ is nearly as good as it was before and my TvT even feels better than my TvP now. The Warp Prism buff has made the match up much more difficult and so will the ghost nerf.
|
On November 09 2011 07:41 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:15 avilo wrote:On November 08 2011 18:46 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 18:45 avilo wrote:On November 08 2011 18:43 Heavenly wrote:On November 08 2011 18:38 avilo wrote:
Pretty sure they will revert the forge changes in 1-2 weeks. You're about to see ridiculous protoss dominance. EMP is iffy as well. Lol, the forge changes. Yeah, that one extra stalker or so is going to change the midgame so much. You get the upgrades even faster than you currently would. You don't even need to understand basic math or know how to read a clock to understand that. How would I get upgrades faster when the build time is unchanged? You have a red hammer next to your name, i expect more from you...you get the upgrades more quickly because they are cheaper...you will have enough money sooner...you will be able to research the upgrades earlier on in the game... *facepalm* Are you even serious? I still don't understand how people think that the upgrades will be made faster, protoss players made them continuously anyways, so they will not finish faster.
He's right ... 2sec faster ! GAME BREAKING
Avilo ~~ pro whiner.
|
On November 09 2011 07:09 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 06:59 Deckkie wrote:On November 09 2011 06:46 IVN wrote:On November 09 2011 06:22 Nightshake wrote:On November 08 2011 08:36 Al Bundy wrote:
I like this patch: it's straightforward and reasonable. Now hopefully Protoss players in the GSL will have a better shot. No, because NesTea and the other Terrans still better. It's not a balance problem. Protoss is going to dominate in Europe, I think. MC took games off MVP easy, even before the patch/even when ghosts were still discustingly imba. That means, the best protoss is the better player, than the best terran. And thats what we will see, once the patch is out. Are you serious? I dont want to say X is better than Y. But plain out saying that Terran only won because of imba Ghost is kinda harsh dont you think? Well, not only ghosts. There were other disgustingly imba things, like 1/1/1 and its derivatives. And many more, that were nerfed. But yeah, terran pro players are nowhere near as good, as one might think. They are basically winning because of their race.
Wow, maybe you should try playing Terran for a change.
|
On November 09 2011 07:15 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:46 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 18:45 avilo wrote:On November 08 2011 18:43 Heavenly wrote:On November 08 2011 18:38 avilo wrote:
Pretty sure they will revert the forge changes in 1-2 weeks. You're about to see ridiculous protoss dominance. EMP is iffy as well. Lol, the forge changes. Yeah, that one extra stalker or so is going to change the midgame so much. You get the upgrades even faster than you currently would. You don't even need to understand basic math or know how to read a clock to understand that. How would I get upgrades faster when the build time is unchanged? You have a red hammer next to your name, i expect more from you...you get the upgrades more quickly because they are cheaper...you will have enough money sooner...you will be able to research the upgrades earlier on in the game... *facepalm*
The level 1 upgrades were untouched for attack and armor. By the time those 2 upgrades are done protoss has the money to upgrade to 2/2 (with the new patch or without). Therefore protoss will not have any quicker upgrades than before the patch.
Edit: The only worthwhile upgrades you get in PvT is attack and armor. If you really think 50/50 for both level 2 upgrades and 100/100 for level 3 upgrades are gonna break the game then I don't know what to say anymore.
|
I am still skeptical about the impact on the game. But if we all yell hard enough after a T loss, we might see a mental change...
|
On November 09 2011 07:42 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. battlecruisers tanks ghosts hellions RAVEN herp derp dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss.. all terran air units are great in TvP. vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT. BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF. BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place. both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency. No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss. MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball. tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit. Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ? when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time? or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts. Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk.
They are not good . For their cost they don't bring anything to the table that you don't already have. They die pretty fast ( like every Unit in Sc2 ) but unlike Bio they can't be replaced that fast. I've done quite some toying around with BC's or Mech it's just not that good. Big techswitches in general are a bad idea and if you straight go for these units you'll end up trading hightech units against lowtech units which is never a good idea.
The problem is those units just don't provide any support in TvP at all so just mixing some in those doesn't do you any good. Thors for example cost 300/200 and are 6 Supply. Guess what you can get for that 3 Marauders maybe even more if say gas is more worth. Mauraders combimes have 375 HP ( have concussive shells) and the same amount of armor and can actually be microed effectivly in battles.
BC's well 400/300 is just a big investment for a unit that doesn't really do anything special and even with the speed buff has the same speed as the Thor .
|
On November 09 2011 07:50 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:42 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. battlecruisers tanks ghosts hellions RAVEN herp derp dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss.. all terran air units are great in TvP. vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT. BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF. BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place. both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency. No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss. MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball. tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit. Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ? when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time? or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts. Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk. They are not good . For their cost they don't anything to the table you don't already have. They pretty fast ( like every Unit in Sc2 ) but unlike Bio they can't be replaced that fast. I've done quite some toying around with BC's or Mech it's just not that good. Big techswitches in general are a bad idea and if you straight go for these units you'll end up trading hightech units against lowtech units which is never a good idea.
This is my exact point.
Your point of view is that BC/mech are bad.
My point of view is that they are good, but an unneccesssary risk.
There is no weakness in MMMGV that mech or BC needs to fill in the TvP match up.
ghost does enough splash damage with emp that siege tanks are unneccessary.
pound for pound mmm beats gateway armies.
vikings shut down VR, pheonix, mothership, carrier and colossus.
ghost shuts down HT / archon, sentries and immortals.
Scans can deal with DTs, but 2 Ravens can bring so much to the table with just PDD that I honestly don't know why terran don't get them more. Stalkers get shut down HARD allowing the vikings to wipe out the colossus almost for free.
There is nothing protoss can field that mmmgv can't deal with without too much trouble unless protoss have snuck in either hidden tech (omg, where did those 6 colossus come from!) or terran just isn't upgrading.
mmmgv is stronger in a strait up fight providing they land some decent EMPs, it's more mobile, it's more cost efficient and it's safer to get.
TvP is so unbalanced that terran can safely ignore most of their arsenal.
it wasn't until the archon buff made zealot archon viable that terran added blue flame into the mix to devastating result.
in TvT you see the entire tech tree being used. mmm into tanks. losing the tank war? switch to mass viking banshee and they respond with thors so you add in BCs. pdd's going down to prevent those viking missile barrages. TvP terran opens MMM and stays there regardless of what protoss does.
|
Jesus christ, is it me or is anyone else getting NOTHING but PvPs? :S
I just laddered 8 games in a row, all PvPs 
Edit:
Forgot its name, but that 2 gate 3 goon pressure into 2 immortal speed prism drop build works WONDERS in plat/diamond on NA 8 game win streak here 
|
On November 09 2011 08:22 HardMacro wrote:Jesus christ, is it me or is anyone else getting NOTHING but PvPs? :S I just laddered 8 games in a row, all PvPs
Did anyone do a triple forge 4gate? :D
EDIT: ^goon pressure? I miss BW..
|
On November 09 2011 08:17 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:50 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:42 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. battlecruisers tanks ghosts hellions RAVEN herp derp dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss.. all terran air units are great in TvP. vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT. BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF. BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place. both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency. No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss. MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball. tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit. Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ? when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time? or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts. Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk. They are not good . For their cost they don't anything to the table you don't already have. They pretty fast ( like every Unit in Sc2 ) but unlike Bio they can't be replaced that fast. I've done quite some toying around with BC's or Mech it's just not that good. Big techswitches in general are a bad idea and if you straight go for these units you'll end up trading hightech units against lowtech units which is never a good idea. This is my exact point. Your point of view is that BC/mech are bad. My point of view is that they are good, but an unneccesssary risk. There is no weakness in MMMGV that mech or BC needs to fill in the TvP match up. ghost does enough splash damage with emp that siege tanks are unneccessary. pound for pound mmm beats gateway armies. vikings shut down VR, pheonix, mothership, carrier and colossus. ghost shuts down HT / archon, sentries and immortals. Scans can deal with DTs, but 2 Ravens can bring so much to the table with just PDD that I honestly don't know why terran don't get them more. Stalkers get shut down HARD allowing the vikings to wipe out the colossus almost for free. There is nothing protoss can field that mmmgv can't deal with without too much trouble unless protoss have snuck in either hidden tech (omg, where did those 6 colossus come from!) or terran just isn't upgrading. mmmgv is stronger in a strait up fight providing they land some decent EMPs, it's more mobile, it's more cost efficient and it's safer to get. TvP is so unbalanced that terran can safely ignore most of their arsenal. it wasn't until the archon buff made zealot archon viable that terran added blue flame into the mix to devastating result. in TvT you see the entire tech tree being used. mmm into tanks. losing the tank war? switch to mass viking banshee and they respond with thors so you add in BCs. pdd's going down to prevent those viking missile barrages. TvP terran opens MMM and stays there regardless of what protoss does.
I expect if i build an Army that is that much more expensive then Bio to actually do better against standard Protoss compositions. But the matter of fact in most cases they do worse in fights and can't even be replaced very well. And Raven are rarely get because on low bases you don't have to gas to add in some Ravens and in the later stages the toss will barely have any Stalkers and just 2-3 Colossi to keep the Terran wasting rescources in Vikings as a support. At the point Ravens aren't that good anymore , especially since the Toss will already have a good amount of HT anyway meaning you'll have dead Ravens ....
Right now TvT also devolved back into Marine/Tank . BC's idk even in TvT in my opion they aren't that good once scouted. What usually happens is 1 guy gets BC's the other guy see it and builds at least 4-5 Starports . The other guy that had BC's nowgets behind in the Vikings Count and loses his whole Air-Army.
I think Techswitches would be possible in TvP IF Terran had a way to fortify a position with long range units. Sadly tanks are not all the intimitating in Sc2 especially agsinst toss so Terran has to no of buying time to switch into anything that isn't build fast...
|
On November 09 2011 07:47 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:15 avilo wrote:On November 08 2011 18:46 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 18:45 avilo wrote:On November 08 2011 18:43 Heavenly wrote:On November 08 2011 18:38 avilo wrote:
Pretty sure they will revert the forge changes in 1-2 weeks. You're about to see ridiculous protoss dominance. EMP is iffy as well. Lol, the forge changes. Yeah, that one extra stalker or so is going to change the midgame so much. You get the upgrades even faster than you currently would. You don't even need to understand basic math or know how to read a clock to understand that. How would I get upgrades faster when the build time is unchanged? You have a red hammer next to your name, i expect more from you...you get the upgrades more quickly because they are cheaper...you will have enough money sooner...you will be able to research the upgrades earlier on in the game... *facepalm* The level 1 upgrades were untouched for attack and armor. By the time those 2 upgrades are done protoss has the money to upgrade to 2/2 (with the new patch or without). Therefore protoss will not have any quicker upgrades than before the patch. Edit: The only worthwhile upgrades you get in PvT is attack and armor. If you really think 50/50 for both level 2 upgrades and 100/100 for level 3 upgrades are gonna break the game then I don't know what to say anymore.
To avilo's point, there's no reason now to not go double forge early on in every PvZ and PvT. Plus the toss will be encouraged to start getting shield upgrades sooner too.
But at the same time shield upgrades aren't good against terran. So I don't really think it will affect PvT, but it will definately help in PvZ
|
On November 09 2011 08:24 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 08:22 HardMacro wrote:Jesus christ, is it me or is anyone else getting NOTHING but PvPs? :S I just laddered 8 games in a row, all PvPs Did anyone do a triple forge 4gate? :D
LOL, since I ranked down to practice toss so I'm only in plat currently, I'll definitely play a game with that build haha
|
On November 09 2011 08:17 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:50 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:42 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. battlecruisers tanks ghosts hellions RAVEN herp derp dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss.. all terran air units are great in TvP. vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT. BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF. BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place. both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency. No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss. MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball. tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit. Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ? when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time? or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts. Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk. They are not good . For their cost they don't anything to the table you don't already have. They pretty fast ( like every Unit in Sc2 ) but unlike Bio they can't be replaced that fast. I've done quite some toying around with BC's or Mech it's just not that good. Big techswitches in general are a bad idea and if you straight go for these units you'll end up trading hightech units against lowtech units which is never a good idea. This is my exact point. Your point of view is that BC/mech are bad. My point of view is that they are good, but an unneccesssary risk. There is no weakness in MMMGV that mech or BC needs to fill in the TvP match up. ghost does enough splash damage with emp that siege tanks are unneccessary. pound for pound mmm beats gateway armies. vikings shut down VR, pheonix, mothership, carrier and colossus. ghost shuts down HT / archon, sentries and immortals. Scans can deal with DTs, but 2 Ravens can bring so much to the table with just PDD that I honestly don't know why terran don't get them more. Stalkers get shut down HARD allowing the vikings to wipe out the colossus almost for free. There is nothing protoss can field that mmmgv can't deal with without too much trouble unless protoss have snuck in either hidden tech (omg, where did those 6 colossus come from!) or terran just isn't upgrading. mmmgv is stronger in a strait up fight providing they land some decent EMPs, it's more mobile, it's more cost efficient and it's safer to get. TvP is so unbalanced that terran can safely ignore most of their arsenal. it wasn't until the archon buff made zealot archon viable that terran added blue flame into the mix to devastating result. in TvT you see the entire tech tree being used. mmm into tanks. losing the tank war? switch to mass viking banshee and they respond with thors so you add in BCs. pdd's going down to prevent those viking missile barrages. TvP terran opens MMM and stays there regardless of what protoss does.
i think this is the biggest flaw of all in the terran (or protoss) race, Bio is superior to almost anything the Protoss can throw at you at any time in the game.
Nothing P does can force the T player to change his Army Composition to mech/air because of this Terran can play with lowgas units thus can stay on fewer gases thus can utilize mules for sick timing attacks, for which the opponent has to react or he will inevitably die.
this is what definies the matchup for me sinces i play this game.
Guess right, and survive for a longer game or use cheesy all-ins or die.
Protoss needs something that helps them to keep terran in check. (Zerg has this with Banelings and Mutas)
Saying Mech doesn't work is BS, when it works in other matches where you "have" to get it to have a chance to win.
It is a luxury of terran in TvP not to be forced to use half of their techpath and metagaming the shit out of protoss due to bad scouting options.
|
On November 09 2011 08:17 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:50 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:42 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. battlecruisers tanks ghosts hellions RAVEN herp derp dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss.. all terran air units are great in TvP. vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT. BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF. BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place. both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency. No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss. MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball. tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit. Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ? when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time? or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts. Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk. They are not good . For their cost they don't anything to the table you don't already have. They pretty fast ( like every Unit in Sc2 ) but unlike Bio they can't be replaced that fast. I've done quite some toying around with BC's or Mech it's just not that good. Big techswitches in general are a bad idea and if you straight go for these units you'll end up trading hightech units against lowtech units which is never a good idea. This is my exact point. Your point of view is that BC/mech are bad. My point of view is that they are good, but an unneccesssary risk. There is no weakness in MMMGV that mech or BC needs to fill in the TvP match up. ghost does enough splash damage with emp that siege tanks are unneccessary. pound for pound mmm beats gateway armies. vikings shut down VR, pheonix, mothership, carrier and colossus. ghost shuts down HT / archon, sentries and immortals. Scans can deal with DTs, but 2 Ravens can bring so much to the table with just PDD that I honestly don't know why terran don't get them more. Stalkers get shut down HARD allowing the vikings to wipe out the colossus almost for free. There is nothing protoss can field that mmmgv can't deal with without too much trouble unless protoss have snuck in either hidden tech (omg, where did those 6 colossus come from!) or terran just isn't upgrading. mmmgv is stronger in a strait up fight providing they land some decent EMPs, it's more mobile, it's more cost efficient and it's safer to get. TvP is so unbalanced that terran can safely ignore most of their arsenal. it wasn't until the archon buff made zealot archon viable that terran added blue flame into the mix to devastating result. in TvT you see the entire tech tree being used. mmm into tanks. losing the tank war? switch to mass viking banshee and they respond with thors so you add in BCs. pdd's going down to prevent those viking missile barrages. TvP terran opens MMM and stays there regardless of what protoss does.
What?Yeah, mmmgv is good because it covers all the bases, but the standard protoss compositions cover all the same bases as well (maybe a bit less effectively at the top levels, granted). Look at all the pros who try to go mech against protoss. See what that leads to. There very well coudl be a way to play it, but right now no one knows how and they're not very good in a standard way. Bio gets worse as the game progresses, especially on large maps.
You can play the same game with every single one of the races. Gone colossus? Well, the zerg can just make corruptors and own them. Gateway units? Die to roaches/ling.
And it's true: getting a battlecruiser rather than lots of marauders for the same cost is not gaining you anything. Bio is good early/mid and, if played well, can kick ass late game against protoss. I'll totally take tanks being better in exchange for marauders.
|
On November 09 2011 08:37 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 08:17 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:50 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:42 Kharnage wrote:On November 09 2011 07:26 s3rp wrote:On November 09 2011 07:20 Zoraque wrote:On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote:
I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has:
- HT
- Collossus
- Archon
Terran has:
- ghosts
Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. battlecruisers tanks ghosts hellions RAVEN herp derp dont say tanks suck in TVP, i think you forgot how strong 1/1/1 is because of tanks. Tanks are also not useless late game btw... if u talk about late game units, u forgot about battlecruisers, thors, ravens and so on.... Battlecruisers don't deal AOE damage ..... , Yamato may look like one but actually it just hits 1 target .... And THors and BC's actually ARE useless against Protoss.. all terran air units are great in TvP. vikings destroy everything that flys, a few pdd hard coutner blink stalker which leaves just archons. not exactly an awesome option with only range 3, slow and FAT. BC's and Thors are far from useless. thors hit like trucks and can break FF. BC's need their ups, but combine them with some PDD cover and protoss is actually in a pretty bad place. both units can be repaired for insane durability and cost efficiency. No terran bothers however cause MMM + ghost and viking wipes the floor with protoss. MMMGV is so strong in the late game that it makes no sense for terran to switch tech. It's BETTER to keep the pressure on and keep the bioball. tech switches are RISKY. they create vulnerable moments which good players can exploit. like when protoss get their robo bay and start getting colossus. everyone knows thats a weak time which you can exploit. Where exactly is the weak point in mmmgv ? when they spot the first colossus and stop making medivacs and make vikings 2 at a time? or when the put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? the production goes maruader to ghost. there is no "down time" or "weak point". if protoss is applying constant pressure they aren't teching, so you don't need ghost or viking. if they aren't putting pressure on you have a strong bio army and you add ghosts. Terran need to stop the BS about their higher tier units being "no good" and be honest about the fact that MMM is so good that tech switching is a pointless risk. They are not good . For their cost they don't anything to the table you don't already have. They pretty fast ( like every Unit in Sc2 ) but unlike Bio they can't be replaced that fast. I've done quite some toying around with BC's or Mech it's just not that good. Big techswitches in general are a bad idea and if you straight go for these units you'll end up trading hightech units against lowtech units which is never a good idea. This is my exact point. Your point of view is that BC/mech are bad. My point of view is that they are good, but an unneccesssary risk. There is no weakness in MMMGV that mech or BC needs to fill in the TvP match up. ghost does enough splash damage with emp that siege tanks are unneccessary. pound for pound mmm beats gateway armies. vikings shut down VR, pheonix, mothership, carrier and colossus. ghost shuts down HT / archon, sentries and immortals. Scans can deal with DTs, but 2 Ravens can bring so much to the table with just PDD that I honestly don't know why terran don't get them more. Stalkers get shut down HARD allowing the vikings to wipe out the colossus almost for free. There is nothing protoss can field that mmmgv can't deal with without too much trouble unless protoss have snuck in either hidden tech (omg, where did those 6 colossus come from!) or terran just isn't upgrading. mmmgv is stronger in a strait up fight providing they land some decent EMPs, it's more mobile, it's more cost efficient and it's safer to get. TvP is so unbalanced that terran can safely ignore most of their arsenal. it wasn't until the archon buff made zealot archon viable that terran added blue flame into the mix to devastating result. in TvT you see the entire tech tree being used. mmm into tanks. losing the tank war? switch to mass viking banshee and they respond with thors so you add in BCs. pdd's going down to prevent those viking missile barrages. TvP terran opens MMM and stays there regardless of what protoss does. i think this is the biggest flaw of all in the terran (or protoss) race, Bio is superior to almost anything the Protoss can throw at you at any time in the game. Nothing P does can force the T player to mix a different techtree (mech) because of this Terran can play with lowgas units thus can stay on fewer gases thus can utilize mules for sick timing attacks, for which the opponent has to react or he will inevitably die. and this is what definies the matchup for me sinces i play this game. Guess right, and survive for a longer game or die. Protoss needs something that helps them to keep terran in check. (Zerg has this with Banelings and Mutas)
What would a Protoss build that would force a Terran into Mech ? Mech does in most cases just worse against anything the Toss can build then Bio. And it's not because Bio is so amazing more like because Mech although much more expensive is pretty underwhelming ( just like Air ). You can't force somone to build an inferior unit composition.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
