Dual sight: Changed the gold expansion to normal one(8mineral 2 gas), Natural's entrance is narrowed, 2nd expo's entrances have been split into two pathways.
Antiga Shipyard: Changed the gold expansion to normal one(8mineral 2gas) Starting position is limited to cross position only
Crossfire SE: Changed the gold expansion to normal one(8mineral 2 gas) Every base excluding the main has been changed to 7 mineral patches from 8. Added supply depos to prevent bunker rushes.
like the getting rid of the golds. Um the new map aesthetics look really good, not sure about balence tho.
Oh wow, they got rid of Terminus. Really glad about that. The new changes they made to that map were really bad for Zerg with the rocks. Though i never really liked Terminus all that much.
GOM is taking balance into their own hands. The very open maps which protoss struggle on has been removed or modified while terran favored gold bases are being removed.
Calm before the storm is also a very protoss friendly map.
the new map seems to encourage some 3rd hardcore turtle play. feel it kinda hard to secure 4th on this map vs muta/drop play.air units can bounce between bases so fast while walking distance is like so far
On October 28 2011 02:14 Archvil3 wrote: GOM is taking balance into their own hands. The very open maps which protoss struggle on has been removed or modified while terran favored gold bases are being removed.
Calm before the storm is also a very protoss friendly map.
Is that a backdoor rock-blocked expo I see on Calm Before the Storm? Is JackyPrime trying to get this map on the ladder?
All-in-all, good changes, I think. Bel'Shir being winterized is kind of cute. I like the new map, jokes aside. It looks really positional. Interesting that they shrank the map-pool, though, and we'll see if the deblinging helps the Terran dominance. .
Terminus was very bad for ZvP and ZvT (ZvT especially because of Terran being able to take and defend 3 full bases and take a 4th as they push out while Zerg found it very very hard to take a 4th).
However, the new map, calm before the storm will play out sort of like Terminus except with a 4th not as hard to take so I dunno how it will be balance wise.
Wait, if they're removing 3 maps, they should add 3 new maps in too. At least I would have liked to see 3 new maps because I like introducing new maps every now and then. I agree with others, that cross fire should be removed.
I always thought golds added some spectator value, and some diversity within the map. It's a shame they have to be removed for balance reasons.
Maybe if it's successful Blizzard will nerf mules in HotS, by lowering their resource count, or making them not be effected on gold minerals, or at least make it so mules use a seperate mineral queue rather than ignore the mineral queue (that is, they can still reach over SCVs to mine, but only one mule can use each patch.) This way we could add golds back into the back pool.
I forgot about Calm before the Storm. I think it's a well done map, it shouldn't suffer from much rotational imbalance, since the quadrants are so symmetrical in themselves.
This new map looks like a zerg nightmare , the safe back expo and the huge chokes everywhere are going to give people nightmares vs toss, we shall see maybe i am just looking at the map wrong
Calm before the storm (CBTS).. really strange name. Like the narrow/wide areas shifting, and lone Xel'Naga Tower. Seems like taking/defending 3rd expo will be major pain in the a on that map.
On October 28 2011 02:34 JiYan wrote: these maps look like GSL trying to take balance into their own hands. I can see some clear efforts to give protoss some good force field advantages
They've done this before, back when Z was doing pretty poorly.
CBTS is almost like a really big 4player crossfire: a bunch of narrow attack paths which encourage counters and make expanding difficult because its so spread out. Wonder how it'll actually play out. The Crossfire change itself is really interesting - making 2base play slightly worse? I wonder if protoss will figure out how to do macro play on it now, if that's even possible.
Also super excited to see Calm get played at a super high level, saw it some in the MCSL and it produced some nice games there so hopefully it does the same in the GSL!
Removing gold makes sense.Calm before the storm looks beautiful, although it's rocks galore lol. Don't agree with removing Terminus, but I guess it'll be back. Ow well, overall it should be interesting.
As a zerg player Calm before the Storm is somewhat concerning. Rocks at the 3rd and 4th are going to make it really hard for Z to secure a 3rd unless they decide to pull a funday monday and expand ot the other half of the map.
Another issue that I see is crossroads in front of the nat. It looks like it is going to be pretty easy to contain someone to their little pocket. I actually think that it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a backdoor path from the 4th to the third. You could use that to either harass a third, better secure a 4th, or sneak units out to get a flank or counter attack.
On October 28 2011 02:49 Emporio wrote: I like removing the golds, but I was okay with Antiga's golds. Those bases are so ridiculously hard to hold I think it deserves to be worth more.
In my opinion gold bases without rocks where a bad idea in the first place. A Zerg fast expands to it and you're kinda forced into an all-in. Doesn't produce interesting games :|
Meh.. Gold create Drama. Don't like them to go out completly. I'm afraid that this campaign of " Let's do everything to stop terran domination " will end up badly.
Aesthetic Feedback: Prime Brothers, PLEASE stop making so many blue maps. Yellow, brown, and red are appreciated. We need more than cool blue, green and black. VARIETY is the spice of life!
Practically, I LOVE removing gold expos! Golds actually inhibit strategic flexibility by narrowing options.
Nice I missed those safe natural expansions behind your main. Now expanding in PvP will become a more likely case. I can't believe dual sight is still in the map pool while they removed terminus...
What's up with the dual sight hate? Isn't it one of the first GSL-introduced maps and I thought everyone loved it for various reasons (such as no rocks).
On October 28 2011 03:17 usethis2 wrote: What's up with the dual sight hate? Isn't it one of the first GSL-introduced maps and I thought everyone loved it for various reasons (such as no rocks).
it's really imbalanced for zvp for one. i dont think i've seen a protoss win in a macro game on that one.
I love the layout of Calm before the Storm, hopefully it will be as good of a map as Daybreak.
I like the removal of the Gold at Dual Sight, but on Antigia it doesn't make much sense to me.
The Gold base on Antigia is insanely hard to get up / mine from as it is, and now as a normal expansion i don't ever see it being taken, so easy to siege up / counter attack into.
On October 28 2011 03:24 boesthius wrote: Oh wow the Calm Before The Storm reminds me so much of Luna, except you have a backdoor expansion. Pretty neat, albeit I'm sure winter Belshir is a bitch to play on because of the blinding whiteness~ T_T
Well it's not 2002 anymore. I think todays monitors can handle white snow maps just fine.
I like that the map creators are attempting what they did in Brood War by balancing through maps. Blizzard just apparently can't get a clue when it comes to maps.
From a balance standpoint, getting rid of gold makes sense, but I liked the variety and the opportunity for risky strats that the gold added. I hope Blizzard makes it so that gold isn't so Terran-favored in HotS so they can bring back gold expos.
I really dislike the change to winter Bel'shir, the original looked much much nicer.
Winter Bel'shir is nice and I look forward to seeing what kind of games calm before the storm produces. I guess the removal of gold bases was inevitable due to imbalance but I will miss the spectator aspect of them from terrans trying to sneakily take their opponents gold in TvT to bold zerg going hatch first to the gold on Antiga. Battles to defend golds and tense moments passing while you wait for players to notice hidden golds made games really exciting sometimes. Of course watching one player power past another because they failed to scout or opened poorly against a fast gold can suck the fun right out of a game as well.
I really wish GSL would start using foreigner maps.... Sort of amazes me there's no outcry for the GSL to do so, people freaked out when foreigners were not joining to play, why not the maps?
Love the no golds thing though, going to be paying VERY close attention to this season to see how it plays out.
YES, we are finally getting AWESOME map names. No more belshir, xelnaga, taldarim crap. Bring in names like 'calm before the storm'. Hope to have a map with as cool a name as 'Benzene'.
Haha just when blizzard ladder starts getting closer to most tourney maps they change it. I can see already "Blizzard, all tourneys removed gold expos so why do you continue to put them in your maps" I know it's just GSL right now but I bet most other follow suit if this ends up working out. Cool to see it resemble more of BW without golds.
On October 28 2011 03:35 Diamond wrote: I really wish GSL would start using foreigner maps.... Sort of amazes me there's no outcry for the GSL to do so, people freaked out when foreigners were not joining to play, why not the maps?
Love the no golds thing though, going to be paying VERY close attention to this season to see how it plays out.
On October 28 2011 03:24 boesthius wrote: Oh wow the Calm Before The Storm reminds me so much of Luna, except you have a backdoor expansion. Pretty neat, albeit I'm sure winter Belshir is a bitch to play on because of the blinding whiteness~ T_T
On October 28 2011 03:35 Diamond wrote: I really wish GSL would start using foreigner maps.... Sort of amazes me there's no outcry for the GSL to do so, people freaked out when foreigners were not joining to play, why not the maps?
Love the no golds thing though, going to be paying VERY close attention to this season to see how it plays out.
On October 28 2011 03:24 boesthius wrote: Oh wow the Calm Before The Storm reminds me so much of Luna, except you have a backdoor expansion. Pretty neat, albeit I'm sure winter Belshir is a bitch to play on because of the blinding whiteness~ T_T
Its a bit sad that they are taking away gold patches, thought they added and extra element to the game. I am also sad about belshir beach new look, in its summer shape it was the prettiest map out there.
I am glad terminus is gone though, very boring map in my opinion.
Calm before the storm seems like its a protoss map. When you think about it it looks like one could Forge FE at the nat, then claim the nat 3rd after knocking down the rocks. you never take it ultra fast as protoss so having a zealot whacking away there from the early game would be very useful.
.. Looking more at it the natural is way too open to Forge FE on. Unless you do the dual sight or Antiga FFE where the cannons move towards the nexus.
Its nice that Terran can't siege any of the minerals or gas geysers on the map from outside the base unless doing a full frontal assault.
Eh the more I look at it the less i see as being good for toss necessarily. Good for Zerg in the sense that there are a lot of attack paths though the rocks do pose an issue for that race.
Terran might get the best side of the map the far away expos lend themselves well to PF defenses and the open areas behind the bases will really help with drops. There are a lot of places you can drop off units and a lot of area to get vision of.
I thought it was time for XNF and Crossfire to go, and that was a couple seasons ago. Interesting to see how the removal of gold bases will affect terran.
Surprised at Terminus' removal, but nonetheless happy to see some new life injected into the GSL mappool, even if it if just making bel'shir different looking and adding a single map, it helps. I also agree with metal and xel'naga, I don't know why but I just found them both boring. Fortress I just don't like, and metal is stale.
It's not that a map's playability and entertainment value is really affected by how long it's been played; lost temple was played for years on end in BW, and numerous other maps have been used for a very long time.
And yes, as somebody said very appropriately, GOM is taking balance into their own hands. Blizzard can do what they want with their silly abyssal caverns and close positions shattered in a 50k tourney, GOM will keep making great maps.
~(yes I know blizzard fixed the abyssal caverns and ST, but they just had to do it after their tournament^^~
On October 28 2011 03:40 Kireak wrote: Its a bit sad that they are taking away gold patches, thought they added and extra element to the game. I am also sad about belshir beach new look, in its summer shape it was the prettiest map out there.
I am glad terminus is gone though, very boring map in my opinion.
Gold bases were always a bad idea because they could only be taken when someone already had an advantage. If you could hold a gold base, you were already in a good position. And as a result of the gold base, the game was practically won. It also gave a really unfair advantage to Terran, as their specific macro mechanic is centered around mining. Inject/Chrono/Mules are balanced in relation to normal mineral fields, but gold bases don't scale with chrono or larva. Its a benefit felt more strongly for Terran and without a real reason.
Blizzard would be proud of that new map with all the destructible rocks . Hm good changes to remove gold as it normally benefits terran the most. Dislike the new map though but thats from just the image its possible once I see actual gameplay on it I will change my mind
On October 28 2011 03:35 Diamond wrote: I really wish GSL would start using foreigner maps.... Sort of amazes me there's no outcry for the GSL to do so, people freaked out when foreigners were not joining to play, why not the maps?
Love the no golds thing though, going to be paying VERY close attention to this season to see how it plays out.
Because no one uses foreigner maps besides you.
And ESL, and NASL, and MLG, and......
surely IEM, NASL & the last MLGs didnt use any "foreigner" maps but mostly GSL ones -_- still love some of your creation though. keep spamming Mr.Chae for approval :p
On October 28 2011 03:08 usethis2 wrote: Why would they change the beautiful summer beach into an ice map?
WINTER IS COMING!
cant help but thinking of weather-effect in Pokemon =) CBTS may look pretty weird but considering the map has been out for quite a while (like 3 months), It must have been tested alot. btw I was looking for a giant metropolis map which
theys really want to see the terrans die. Even if im toss and there way to much Terrans in CodeS, this will just make ZvT pretty much one sided. No reason to attack for the Zerg, no reason to do sth else than react....
cool idea to change the theme on bel shir. never thought that highly of gold minerals so i think its a good idea to take them out until they are being used in a creative way
I really like the idea of removing gold bases aswell. What also seems pretty interesting is the removal of 1 mineral patch @crossfire. This basically forces the players to expand quicker and thereby changing the pace of the matches quite a bit on this long narrow map. Also glad they updated CBTS w/ less rocks. I was like "WTF?!" when i spotted the double rockblocked backdoor expansion. :D
On October 28 2011 03:55 MooLen wrote: theys really want to see the terrans die. Even if im toss and there way to much Terrans in CodeS, this will just make ZvT pretty much one sided. No reason to attack for the Zerg, no reason to do sth else than react....
Your right we should just let terrans get 4-5 bases. Why attack? lol... If a terran secured a gold base you couldn't attack it anyway so the removal of it doesn't change how zergs can attack or incentive to -_-.
Happy to see Terminus removed, the older version was way too Zerg-friendly, while the new version is way too ridiculous for Zerg (pretty much vetoed in every ZvX matchup this past season).
Don't like the new map, reminds me of an improved Delta Quadrant (anything that gets compared to that is not good...)
Yeahhhh fuck gold bases. Was a stupid idea to include those anyway because of how much more useful they are to terran than protoss or zerg.
edit: also I think calm before the storm could use a little bit wider area around the 4th bases (the ones with the rocks on them) because it looks to me like there is no way a zerg can push a terran third once it has some siege tanks chillin there.
On October 28 2011 02:14 Archvil3 wrote: GOM is taking balance into their own hands. The very open maps which protoss struggle on has been removed or modified while terran favored gold bases are being removed.
I'm almost certain we'll see Zerg numbers collapse and Protoss numbers grow with this sort of change, with a magnitude dependant on how big a change they make. I honestly don't see many change made to Terran numbers; a choke helps Terran as much as it helps Protoss, perhaps even more so.
Well mules were reason to remove gold. Even on Antiga, the 400 you spend on cc you can get back with 3 mules which is kinda stupid if you ask me. Also seems hard to take 4th on new map but at least you have 2.5 easily secured. Can not wait for siege contain on that map great map for zerg and protoss!
On October 28 2011 03:08 OMGKEI wrote: Nice I missed those safe natural expansions behind your main. Now expanding in PvP will become a more likely case. I can't believe dual sight is still in the map pool while they removed terminus...
You kidding, I hate dual sight too but come on, Terminus was just retarded against Zerg and I'm Terran.
On October 28 2011 02:30 Frozne wrote: The golds needed to go.
Protoss cant chronoboost a gold mineral patch.
Zerg can't inject a gold mineral patch.
Terran can mule a gold mineral patch.
End of story. Why put advantageous minerals in the game if one race has an even bigger bonus upon securing the base than the other 2 races.
I know blizzard won't removed gold bases from the ladder, but if this works(balances the korean terran dominance) blizzard might patch the mule so that it returns the same amount(30) even if it's a gold mineral patch.
GOM is pretty amazing and I agree with most of their changes.
They've actually removed gold expos from the GSL, which I feel is a step forward. They provide an interesting dynamic but Protoss can seldom exploit it.
Can't wait to see the new map in action. It seems to have both narrow passages and multiple attack paths. Hopefully, it'll turn out as well as Daybreak did.
On October 28 2011 04:25 Gamegene wrote: hey. hey guys. why is delta quadrant in the map pool with a new texture?
Because now Zerg can actually defend their "real" natural.
Blizzard... give me back delta quadrant..!
I actually liked that map ==;
Nah, only thing I liked with DQ was the red map texture. I'm sad that there is no other map with that texture.
And when I'm already at it maybe some mapmakers can answer this. Is there no option in the editor to have maps look like Metalopolis? The whole city theme is really cool imo and there is no other map with that.
Winter Belshir Beach looks sick. I'm excited to see the new map in action along with the old maps without the golds. Should make for some interesting games.
For the record I like gold bases because it makes a player think about actively controlling "no mans land" areas of the map and prompts a choice between an "easy expo" or a higher reward "hard expo" but, as I said above, they favor Terran too much at the moment due to mules, the lift ability and planetary fortresses.
On October 28 2011 04:42 vnlegend wrote: Macro games are overrated. Even with these ridiculously huge maps and forced 4 player cross spawns, Terran will still a way to triumph.
Yeah man, in fact GSL shouldn't even bother making new maps or making changes to the format at all. Terran OP and there's nothing we can do about it.
Let's all push for early release of HOTS beta because TERRAN OP!
On October 28 2011 04:50 RinconH wrote: Gogo gold removal.
Smart way to nerf Terran subtly.
For the record I like gold bases because it makes a player think about actively controlling "no mans land" areas of the map and prompts a choice between an "easy expo" or a higher reward "hard expo" but, as I said above, they favor Terran too much at the moment due to mules, the lift ability and planetary fortresses.
Problem is gold bases are only really higher reward for Terran. For everyone else it just means they reach saturation with less workers but still net the same income.
On October 28 2011 02:07 Daralii wrote: Winter Bel'shir sounds pretty neat. Much love for snow maps.
I assume the removal of golds is due to the recent trend of Z early expanding to them and then just turtling before overwhelming their opponent.
No, because zergs take their naturals as their second base, and if they expand to a gold "early" they aren't mined out at their main yet. A zerg on 3+ bases is limited by GAS in creating a bigger army of the appropriate composition, not MINERALS, so the gold base doesn't help that much.
Terrans happily continue making mineral heavy units like marauders, hellions, and marines, on top of benefiting more from the gold base than any other race because of mules. Beyond that, the gold is often in a vulnerable location that T can hold more easily than other races because they have planetary fortresses.
calm before storm looks like delta quadrant, just so much tighter.... No Terminus makes me sad, cause i like this map. But it was in the pool for a long time, so they wanted to make a change i think.
On October 28 2011 02:52 Klystron wrote: As a zerg player Calm before the Storm is somewhat concerning. Rocks at the 3rd and 4th are going to make it really hard for Z to secure a 3rd unless they decide to pull a funday monday and expand ot the other half of the map.
Another issue that I see is crossroads in front of the nat. It looks like it is going to be pretty easy to contain someone to their little pocket. I actually think that it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a backdoor path from the 4th to the third. You could use that to either harass a third, better secure a 4th, or sneak units out to get a flank or counter attack.
I feel sorry for Zerg on here. Where exactly is zerg supposed to fight? I do approve of making muta/drop difficult though.
On October 28 2011 05:01 Doso wrote: Antiga Shipyard cross only - if the map wasn't bight enough already *sigh*
The map has positional imbalances if you don't spawn cross positions, i.e. one of the player's third base is MORE exposed than the other's. This is a necessary change.
On October 28 2011 02:07 Daralii wrote: Winter Bel'shir sounds pretty neat. Much love for snow maps.
I assume the removal of golds is due to the recent trend of Z early expanding to them and then just turtling before overwhelming their opponent.
No, because zergs take their naturals as their second base, and if they expand to a gold "early" they aren't mined out at their main yet. A zerg on 3+ bases is limited by GAS in creating a bigger army of the appropriate composition, not MINERALS, so the gold base doesn't help that much.
Terrans happily continue making mineral heavy units like marauders, hellions, and marines, on top of benefiting more from the gold base than any other race because of mules. Beyond that, the gold is often in a vulnerable location that T can hold more easily than other races because they have planetary fortresses.
I can see a few exceptions to this in early ling/roach-heavy rushes. It's ludicrous how many units you can get out for ling/roach timings if you take an early gold (even if you are in a dangerous spot against early pressure build).
Clearly though they are experimenting to see how gold mineral patches affect code S racial composition ...
The rocks on Calm Before the Storm are very smart, given that it otherwise acts too much like Jungle Basin without them. The chokes are pretty nasty, but it has a good deal of attack paths and bases, so overall it looks like a great map.
Anyone else reminded of Fighting Spirit when they look at this map?
3 super easy bases that make a triangle so drops are less effective, esp on main.
Then they slapped on the 4 extra bases from Luna's third and called it a day.
I approve of this map def. It looks basically like an evolution of what Tal' Darim Altar originally tried to accomplish, except more in Protoss' favor and less in Terrans' due to easy bases that are not hard to defend from drops. Once you take a third on Tal'Darim you are basically asking Terran to drop you lol.
On October 28 2011 04:50 RinconH wrote: Gogo gold removal.
Smart way to nerf Terran subtly.
For the record I like gold bases because it makes a player think about actively controlling "no mans land" areas of the map and prompts a choice between an "easy expo" or a higher reward "hard expo" but, as I said above, they favor Terran too much at the moment due to mules, the lift ability and planetary fortresses.
Problem is gold bases are only really higher reward for Terran. For everyone else it just means they reach saturation with less workers but still net the same income.
Winter theme is an awesome idea. They should change all of the maps to fit the weather ^_^. I wonder if they're changing all of the gold bases because of terran dominance... gold + mules does give a pretty big advantage.
Maybe blizzard should instead make mules not super effective with gold minerals? That might help the balance more because then the other races could catch up by getting a gold base instead of falling more behind.
The new map looks pretty rough for Zerg PvZ... very few areas where flanks can be performed. Instead you have a lot of corridors for Colossi to absolutely wreck face.
I guess GOM got sick of Zergs taking the gold instead of their natural against Protoss, and being immune to all-ins afterward.
The Crossfire change intrigues me though. Why 7 patches on non-main bases? Is this some super-specific change to Crossfire alone, or is it a general experiment in how the game plays out with less mineral patches on bases?
The new map looks like a "here Protoss beats Zerg" design, I suppose they want more Protoss winning. Pity you can't really make a map that favors P over T.
(sadly no more vods on reniehour's channel, can't remember if games got broadcast on another channel and also can't remember what that was if that was the case xD)
Liking the new changes, though I hope they get rid of Dual Sight next season or fix it so that taking a third isn't ridiculously difficult as protoss against zerg.
hehe poor golds, but they really favor the one with the map control (basically zerg and not protoss), so they have to put rocks there. I like the testbug gold rocks alot. Lifting there or fast hatch doesn't work but they don't stop you from building a base there while killing the rocks. But recently games look pretty boring when a gold is involved so i don't mind if they are gone for some time. (one side cutting workers getting gold as the 3rd able to hold it with ease because of the eco cutting, while having the same income with the gold, and then poking down the 3rd of the opponent).
New map looks interesting (and drop/muta save) and winter belshir is pretty cool ^.^. Lets see if the map changes will help Protoss ^.^, it looks like it will. But looks can be deceiving.
Way too many rocks on Calm before the storm, makes me cringe. Like the removing of gold patches. Crossfire should have gone away instead of Terminus. Otherwise the map pool seems quite solid.
On October 28 2011 05:36 blooblooblahblah wrote: The new map looks pretty difficult for Zerg. It looks interesting tho and it's worth trying out. And i like the removal of the golds
This map will probably be a nightmare PvZ considering the easy third base and chokes, but I don't really see it TvZ considering all the counter attack paths and dead space.
On October 28 2011 05:45 RumTalk wrote: The new map looks very difficult to defend from drop harrass, look at the distance between the inbase nat and the regular ramp
honestly much better than maps without the inbase nat.
Dang, bye bye gold bases. Not quite sure if I like that yet. Should be more balanced, but also kind of takes some of the excitement out of it I feel. Like when one player gets a gold base, its interesting to see how the other player responds.
Winter Belshir Beach, what the heck. It doesn't really look like a beach anymore We already have enough dark feeling maps
Hm.. not really a big fan of Snow Maps.. too much strain on the eyes at times.. BW snow maps were the worst.. GBR > El Nino any day. That being said, I've never played on a SC2 snow map so who knows
On October 28 2011 06:03 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: Hm.. not really a big fan of Snow Maps.. too much strain on the eyes at times.. BW snow maps were the worst.. GBR > El Nino any day. That being said, I've never played on a SC2 snow map so who knows
if anything bel shir beach was a snowmap with the fucking white sand.
i remember looking at it at 3 in the morning and it hurt.
Terminus out? Also XNF? Also why screw gold bases on maps other than Dual Sight? Meh the maps are ok, white Bel'Shir will be for the first pair of games creepy. As far as I'm concerned I can live perfectly with this maps!
On October 28 2011 05:25 Toadvine wrote: I guess GOM got sick of Zergs taking the gold instead of their natural against Protoss, and being immune to all-ins afterward.
The Crossfire change intrigues me though. Why 7 patches on non-main bases? Is this some super-specific change to Crossfire alone, or is it a general experiment in how the game plays out with less mineral patches on bases?
The new map looks like a "here Protoss beats Zerg" design, I suppose they want more Protoss winning. Pity you can't really make a map that favors P over T.
Only way I can see that happening is if they add neutral protoss buildings like in the campaign that you can capture by building a pylon.
I don't really like the idea of taking gold bases away, however the new map looks interesting. Now I will always wonder why the water on Belshir Beach didn't become ice :S
First map looks like Belshir Beach and second looks like Crevasse. And i don't like the gold expansion changes because it takes some risks out of the matches. Besides i don't understand why they removed Xel'Naga Fortress. Was the most intressting map.
xel naga fortress and terminus were two of the best terran maps in their pool, GOM seemingly wants to try and balance through maps. Although metal leaving is great for terrans. Removing the gold bases on dual sight and crossfire is a great move as those can be far too powerful in certain circumstances. I think the gold on Antiga was well balanced but w/e.
Nice. I really never liked Fortress. The new Belshir actually looks easier to spectate. Maybe I'm the only one, but I always get distracted by all the different features of the beach. Creep tumor beneath rivers make my eyes hurt.
I also like the removal of the golds. More BW style. I think they have a place in this game, but I'm interested in seeing how things pan out without them.
On October 28 2011 06:22 Lolli92 wrote: First map looks like Belshir Beach and second looks like Crevasse. And i don't like the gold expansion changes because it takes some risks out of the matches. Besides i don't understand why they removed Xel'Naga Fortress. Was the most intressting map.
On October 28 2011 06:22 Lolli92 wrote: First map looks like Belshir Beach and second looks like Crevasse. And i don't like the gold expansion changes because it takes some risks out of the matches. Besides i don't understand why they removed Xel'Naga Fortress. Was the most intressting map.
Err...the first map is Bel'Shir...
Oh shit didn't read through the whole text, lol xD
On the new map Calm Before the Storm I don't like how the in base expansion is a full expo with 2 gas. Make it 5 mineral patches (or 8 1/2 mineral patches), and remove one of the gas.
Calm is a bit scary looking as a zerg player. Rocks at the in base expo and the 4th and really narrow pathways. The plus side is that it looks pretty counter-attack friendly. Getting kind of a Crossfire mixed with Shakuras vibe from it.
Sad to see Meta go, especially given that Antiga/Dual Sight are still around.
On October 28 2011 06:52 Amlitzer wrote: On the new map Calm Before the Storm I don't like how the in base expansion is a full expo with 2 gas. Make it 5 mineral patches (or 8 1/2 mineral patches), and remove one of the gas.
So basically turn it into Crevasse? I like the way it is. The map will work a little like Terminus and there's been some great games on that map.
Hmmm I remeber me saying, that one of the most imbalanced features of SC2 are gold bases. It's really positive, that GOM come to the same thought. Gold Bases support abusive play very much. Zerg fastexpanding @ gold an overwhelming with a mass of Units that they shouldn't be able to support in the early game, are a hell, as well as Terrans taking the Gold as third and climbing away in Supply in the midgame, while being absolute indestructable with a PF. Also hidden Gold Bases were so abusive Strats, very frustrating for the better players and the fans of the game, seeing a lesser skilled player win, with abusing that factor. It's a very good move. I think this will be the most competetive GSL season of all time, with the new format, the best game balance ever and no gold bases on GSL maps. I'm really looking forward to it.
To bad meta is gone the week it re-enters the map pool. I really like the look of the re-skin on Bel'shir and the new map looks pretty cool to. Glad that gold bases are finally gone, and hopefully other tournaments will follow suit and get rid of them to.
On October 28 2011 06:52 Amlitzer wrote: On the new map Calm Before the Storm I don't like how the in base expansion is a full expo with 2 gas. Make it 5 mineral patches (or 8 1/2 mineral patches), and remove one of the gas.
So basically turn it into Crevasse? I like the way it is. The map will work a little like Terminus and there's been some great games on that map.
No because Crevasse had no rock at the in base allowing you to FE, and it also had an enriched gas rather than a regular one. Also, your line of reasoning does not make any sense. "It will be too much like an existing map which is not even played anymore so it's bad". So I guess we can't have rocks at the third expo anymore because TA did that first? There is also a lot more into what made Crevasse unique besides the in base expansion; like the double wide ramp with debris, and the destructible debris that opened up the middle, and etc.
On October 28 2011 06:47 CeriseCherries wrote: Hmmm I guess the no gold could hurt terran...
Im loving the winter look tho
I like the winter look too. I wonder if they'll change all the maps to be seasonal (I think that could be cool if they did it once in a while... or really monotonous).
I think the gold thing is that early contain -> ninja gold was so strong. If you get the early contain that should be it's own advantage. You shouldn't get a double advantage for bottling your opponent up. It made early all-ins that forced people to turtle in their base way too strong, for instance 1-base roach bust on Crossfire or the many variation of contain -> take opponent's gold on Dual Sight we've seen.
I like the idea of Winter Bel'Shir, but it's really hard on the eyes. Calm Before The Storm reminds me of God's Garden in BW, which I think is pretty cool.
There's so many rocks! There's the backdoor, which will probably end up as a third base for most zergs, but beyond that, there's waaaay too many rocks.
Especially the BelShir Beach change and the new map looks as well interesting. Guess it will make 3basing much easier? But either was I'm pumped to see them in action!
Hmm pretty cool maps should create some very interesting play and strategies. I am kind of sad they removed metalopolis, but i am sure that is not a big deal. I have always enjoyed games on the map. though. I really really like Winter Belshir, should be good!
New map? Can't judge yet, but I get DQ chills out of it. That's not good. Backdoor exps, specially with rocks, tend to always harm zerg the most. I don't understand rocks at 4th/5th either. Suppose this affects pvz - toss has hard time FFE'ing due to wide nat - zerg can't take fast 3rd. Can't see why rocks would really affect other matchups too much.
On October 28 2011 07:55 Doko wrote: Calm before the storm looks EXTREMELY zerg unfriendly or am I misjudging the width of those ground paths? (on top of the free 3rd)
The free 3rd is gonna make PvZ ugly for Zerg which was the main reason every zerg vetoed the new Terminus.
I really wish some map makers would experiment more with their maps rather than for the most part making relatively generic maps that have shown up thus far. Perhaps a map that has a short rush distance, long push distance. Paths only certain units can move through (e.g. smaller units). 3 player maps aren't seen very often. These kinds of maps can add certain dynamics, such as forcing players to develop strategies not only for their opponent but also for the map.
On October 28 2011 07:48 Ouga wrote: Golds gone - good.
Maps taken out but xfire still in? Bad.
New map? Can't judge yet, but I get DQ chills out of it. That's not good. Backdoor exps, specially with rocks, tend to always harm zerg the most. I don't understand rocks at 4th/5th either. Suppose this affects pvz - toss has hard time FFE'ing due to wide nat - zerg can't take fast 3rd. Can't see why rocks would really affect other matchups too much.
Last I check CF is pretty balanced. Possibly Zerg favored.
Seriously, cross positions only on antiga? Feel like that'll be really boring if every game is cross positions.. Gold bases gone sounds like a good idea though.
On October 28 2011 06:52 Amlitzer wrote: On the new map Calm Before the Storm I don't like how the in base expansion is a full expo with 2 gas. Make it 5 mineral patches (or 8 1/2 mineral patches), and remove one of the gas.
So basically turn it into Crevasse? I like the way it is. The map will work a little like Terminus and there's been some great games on that map.
No because Crevasse had no rock at the in base allowing you to FE, and it also had an enriched gas rather than a regular one. Also, your line of reasoning does not make any sense. "It will be too much like an existing map which is not even played anymore so it's bad". So I guess we can't have rocks at the third expo anymore because TA did that first? There is also a lot more into what made Crevasse unique besides the in base expansion; like the double wide ramp with debris, and the destructible debris that opened up the middle, and etc.
You should note that the picture of the new map in the OP is the outdated version. There's a pic of the updated one on page 4~5. It has no rocks at the back natural.
The gold change is really interesting, I'm very curious to see how it will play out. And although it looks awesome of course I still am no fan of redesigning Bel'Shir Beach, the most beautiful map there is. =(
On October 28 2011 02:07 GTR wrote: should have removed crossfire instead of xnf but w/e.
agreed, crossfire had its run
that said, the new map looks amazing and the new belshir beach is epic i love the idea of changing the tileset to reflect the season :D i hope they do this with multiple maps over the course of time its just an awesome idea
I think the removal of gold bases will really help some of the balance imo; not just for TvX, but also ZvP - way too many games I've seen where the zerg gets a quick gold and the protoss is forced to respond with an asap attack (ie all-in), it just makes for bad games because they rarely ever become back and forth macro games.
Can't wait for GSL Christmas. I bet the critter will get replaced with Santa Claus and trees will have baubles on them.
But seriously, nice changes to the map pool. You can feel the GSL team are putting in the effort to create better, more spectacular, more balanced and more competitive ESPORTS.
On October 28 2011 02:07 GTR wrote: should have removed crossfire instead of xnf but w/e.
agreed, crossfire had its run
that said, the new map looks amazing and the new belshir beach is epic i love the idea of changing the tileset to reflect the season :D i hope they do this with multiple maps over the course of time its just an awesome idea
As a zerg I'd rather play on Crossfire then XNF. XNF is like 3 siege hops to your opponent, it's a pretty short map, while Crossfire has so many corridors to counter attack. Muta play is pretty powerful on the map as well.
On October 28 2011 06:52 Amlitzer wrote: On the new map Calm Before the Storm I don't like how the in base expansion is a full expo with 2 gas. Make it 5 mineral patches (or 8 1/2 mineral patches), and remove one of the gas.
So basically turn it into Crevasse? I like the way it is. The map will work a little like Terminus and there's been some great games on that map.
No because Crevasse had no rock at the in base allowing you to FE, and it also had an enriched gas rather than a regular one. Also, your line of reasoning does not make any sense. "It will be too much like an existing map which is not even played anymore so it's bad". So I guess we can't have rocks at the third expo anymore because TA did that first? There is also a lot more into what made Crevasse unique besides the in base expansion; like the double wide ramp with debris, and the destructible debris that opened up the middle, and etc.
You should note that the picture of the new map in the OP is the outdated version. There's a pic of the updated one on page 4~5. It has no rocks at the back natural.
Indeed you are right, I did comb through ever page so I missed that. If they are going to keep the double gas, then they really need to reposition one of the gas. Pros don't like it when the gas are in between the minerals like that, because it's a huge hassle for them to put workers back into the gas after they pull all their workers when they get harassed. Personally, I think the best example of an in base expansion is the ESV map Nemesis by prodiG. The map has LoS blockers with a no build area that prevents the expo from being entirely "free".
On October 28 2011 08:06 RoyaleBrainSlug wrote: I really wish some map makers would experiment more with their maps rather than for the most part making relatively generic maps that have shown up thus far. Perhaps a map that has a short rush distance, long push distance. Paths only certain units can move through (e.g. smaller units). 3 player maps aren't seen very often. These kinds of maps can add certain dynamics, such as forcing players to develop strategies not only for their opponent but also for the map.
It's because the pros don't like it when map makers create maps that they actually have to practice on. Things will stay this way in till tournaments stop using so many ladder maps in their map pool.
No more Metal OR Terminus?! That makes me sad. Its also interesting that they took out so many of the gold bases. Very interesting. I wonder if this means that they think they have too much of an influence on competitive gameplay, either in regards to balance or strategtical influence.
Thank god no more Metal. That map is figured out and needs to be layed to rest. Are you listening Blizz... BLIZZARD WHAT ARE YOU DOING!? PUTTING IT BACK IN!?
Always interested in games on the new maps when they are out. Looking forward to seeing how Calm before the Storm plays out. Could be interesting. Sad about zero golds. I think they sometimes added an interesting aspect to the game. But oh well.
There maps were very friendly towards defensible Gold bases, pretty happy they removed them. Will be nice to see Zerg players get buffed in that manner.
On October 28 2011 10:58 finalboss2 wrote: There maps were very friendly towards defensible Gold bases, pretty happy they removed them. Will be nice to see Zerg players get buffed in that manner.
Protoss as well. Terran is the only one really hurt by this. This is a buff for Protoss in all matches on Dual Sight because they could never take that base anyways. Still gonna be a 2 base map for them though.
Calm Before the Storm reminds me of Jungle Basin a bit. You get access to some very easy expos almost inside your base but then your next base after that is right out in the middle of nowhere.
Are these maps made by GOM.TV employees like LSprime? I know a lot of maps that I would rather see being used than crossfire, but GOM really wants to use only blizzard maps and in house developed maps.
no wonder, thoguht the first map looked like belshir xD tbh tho the winter theme... i do not like it o.o maybe it will look better when u actually play than when u look at the overview tho
Also getting rid of all the golds is sort of lulzy, tbh idk if i like that or not. The gold makes it so that a terran could take that base as a third (it's a bit hard to defend, even if it's a good center to start aggression from, simply cus it's sort of out there) and now there's less incentive to take that base.
getting rid of gold on crossfire and dual sight makes sense, espcially crossfire i do not know if you could beat that strategy (at least for TvZ) where zerg takes the gold as natural expansion and makes roach to pressure/defend
Getting rid of it on dual sight, meh, o well im indifferent
less mineral patches on crossfire though? that's really interesting, i wonder why?
fuck yeah, no more gold for your mules bitches! I really like that change... i wonder when that will be implemented in ladder maps... maybe by the time of the protoss exp.
On October 28 2011 15:52 Jenia6109 wrote: No gold bases: finally we are going back to BW!
I personally do not mind gold bases at all, in fact I think they are a neat idea, but MULEs should not be able to mine from them. Having mules at a gold base with a planetary fortress is just ridiculous.
calm before the storm reminds me of delta quadrant but done right. i looked at it from a protoss point of view, and it seems like it's everything i could ever think to ask for without being really OP for toss.
Calm Before the Storm is way too long for a map name. . .
Other than that, nice changes to the old maps and hopefully the new map isn't as ridiculously bad for Zerg as it looks. Not too sure about removing Dual Sight golds though - the whole hidden gold base strategy is vulnerable to scouting, which should be being encouraged, not made less important, and it was becoming way less useful as players realised that, hey, maybe they should actually know what's going on around the map.
On October 28 2011 02:04 fusionsdf wrote: hmm I guess gold patches + mules are being blamed for terran dominance?
No I think it's the fact that the gold bases in awkward places on the map don't really help anyone, and in the case of antiga (even though the removed close spawns) it is a shared 3rd or 4th base.
It's not because of MULE that T gets better use of gold bases, its because T can defend and attack them much easier than the other races since they are in shitty locations. (although saved up energy and MULEs obviously is a counterpart as well).
And actually in the case of bel shir, terran pretty much has to take the gold as a 3rd. Now that its blue, they can opt to take a further away base instead for a positional strategic option.
I don't think I like that new map, backdoor bases always seem to be terrible for zerg. Protoss will FFE and then take a 3rd whenever they please without a problem.
And Terran will double expand every time.
Zerg can't really triple or quad expand in either circumstance to make up for it (especially since there are Drocks >.< ) Zerg is the worst race at dealing with DRocks as well. Stupid armored rocks.
I'm a lil bit sad to see terminus is gone... And was "replaced" by crossfire. A like crossfire but i'm not sure about its specific architecture. Glad Xel'naga fortress is not in the map pool anymore, I dont really like it. But anyway, great mappool ! Cant wait to see the new map and the new Belshir beach (looks awsome).
On October 28 2011 02:04 fusionsdf wrote: hmm I guess gold patches + mules are being blamed for terran dominance?
No, gold are removed because of zerg fast expanding there with impunity in the first place imo (TvZ on crossfire, PvZ on antiga). As a side effect bonus yeah it's good for terran balance too. Good changes, but I'll wait and see how the new map will be played. I'm usually not a fan of maps like the new one. But the removed maps are a good thing
The Calm is kind of like a different half of Terminus. Free 3rd base is the obvious feature for both maps, but Terminus had a lot of open air space as well as open ground. This map features very little air space and the ground is not as open.
On October 28 2011 15:35 OneBk wrote: fuck yeah, no more gold for your mules bitches! I really like that change... i wonder when that will be implemented in ladder maps... maybe by the time of the protoss exp.
Never happen- Blizzard loves their golds too much.
I realy like the idea of ditching gold minerals. I think that gold bases + mules have been part of th reason that terran has been doing so well. Not all of the reason, but some of it.
im glad the gold bases are gone, just as personal preference, and im loving the look of the new belshir beach, i cant wait to see some epic games on a winter tile set
On October 28 2011 02:04 fusionsdf wrote: hmm I guess gold patches + mules are being blamed for terran dominance?
that was my thought, remove golds and it's a nerf to terran, I wonder whether most of the other changes are along the same lines trying to self balance against the terran dominance.
Everyone has to remember, it's in gomtv's best interest to make the most terran unfavorable maps possible to get the league back to a regular race composition.
On October 28 2011 02:04 fusionsdf wrote: hmm I guess gold patches + mules are being blamed for terran dominance?
that was my thought, remove golds and it's a nerf to terran, I wonder whether most of the other changes are along the same lines trying to self balance against the terran dominance.
Everyone has to remember, it's in gomtv's best interest to make the most terran unfavorable maps possible to get the league back to a regular race composition.
Gold patches allow a Terran with weaker Macro to catch back up to a better player, if they can secure a Gold Base.
For Antigua specifically, it's like Xel`Naga, if a Terran can get the Gold up, they get a massive advantage.
I don't really agree with the removal of those bases. It is not that i don't agree that they were broken i just think those maps kinda revolves around them. They are a risk-reward concept but now all there is left is the risk. Who would want to take a center expantion now on Antiga now?
I think they also need to start tuning down the terran-stomping and take their time or they might see a huge backlass. I have suspected for a while that GSL terran problem also come down to how code S players barely got replaced. With this new system and the terran nerfs in 1.4 and 1.4.2 we might risk a collosal terran drop down to the single digit. And then we can just start all over again with the attempts to rebuff the maps for terran while stomping down on Protoss/Zerg(Whoever becomes dominant).
On October 28 2011 02:04 fusionsdf wrote: hmm I guess gold patches + mules are being blamed for terran dominance?
that was my thought, remove golds and it's a nerf to terran, I wonder whether most of the other changes are along the same lines trying to self balance against the terran dominance.
Everyone has to remember, it's in gomtv's best interest to make the most terran unfavorable maps possible to get the league back to a regular race composition.
Gold patches allow a Terran with weaker Macro to catch back up to a better player, if they can secure a Gold Base.
For Antigua specifically, it's like Xel`Naga, if a Terran can get the Gold up, they get a massive advantage.
On XelNaga, the problem of the gold is terran balance yeah. But on antiga and crossfire, I really don't think so, the problem is way bigger when zerg use the gold as a first expand (or a second very fast expand). It will also influence terran balance yeah, but I'm not sure terran balance was what was in mind for the gold removals. I think it was mainly because of the stupid games fast gold for zerg induced (you either scout it and try to allin and hope you hit the very small timing window you have or you die)
On October 28 2011 02:04 fusionsdf wrote: hmm I guess gold patches + mules are being blamed for terran dominance?
that was my thought, remove golds and it's a nerf to terran, I wonder whether most of the other changes are along the same lines trying to self balance against the terran dominance.
Everyone has to remember, it's in gomtv's best interest to make the most terran unfavorable maps possible to get the league back to a regular race composition.
Gold patches allow a Terran with weaker Macro to catch back up to a better player, if they can secure a Gold Base.
For Antigua specifically, it's like Xel`Naga, if a Terran can get the Gold up, they get a massive advantage.
On XelNaga, the problem of the gold is terran balance yeah. But on antiga and crossfire, I really don't think so, the problem is way bigger when zerg use the gold as a first expand (or a second very fast expand). It will also influence terran balance yeah, but I'm not sure terran balance was what was in mind for the gold removals. I think it was mainly because of the stupid games fast gold for zerg induced (you either scout it and try to allin and hope you hit the very small timing window you have or you die)
I dont think 100% terran balance on Xel Naga either. By terran balance I mean the terran having the gold is whats causing the dominance on that map. Its involved but its more the fact that terran can take the gold while effectively denying your gold that caused the map imbalances that Xel Naga wound up with.
On October 28 2011 02:04 fusionsdf wrote: hmm I guess gold patches + mules are being blamed for terran dominance?
that was my thought, remove golds and it's a nerf to terran, I wonder whether most of the other changes are along the same lines trying to self balance against the terran dominance.
Everyone has to remember, it's in gomtv's best interest to make the most terran unfavorable maps possible to get the league back to a regular race composition.
Gold patches allow a Terran with weaker Macro to catch back up to a better player, if they can secure a Gold Base.
For Antigua specifically, it's like Xel`Naga, if a Terran can get the Gold up, they get a massive advantage.
On XelNaga, the problem of the gold is terran balance yeah. But on antiga and crossfire, I really don't think so, the problem is way bigger when zerg use the gold as a first expand (or a second very fast expand). It will also influence terran balance yeah, but I'm not sure terran balance was what was in mind for the gold removals. I think it was mainly because of the stupid games fast gold for zerg induced (you either scout it and try to allin and hope you hit the very small timing window you have or you die)
I dont think 100% terran balance on Xel Naga either. By terran balance I mean the terran having the gold is whats causing the dominance on that map. Its involved but its more the fact that terran can take the gold while effectively denying your gold that caused the map imbalances that Xel Naga wound up with.
Yeah, on xelnaga it's more the PF on the gold is too much of a strategic/positional/map control advantage.
I kinda liked the gold expansions on dual sight tho, it was a real risk to take them early. But late they could be a problem against zerg more than terran, again, imo. (zerg can defend the gold against every race, protoss and terran can't even take a 3rd on this map, so the gold is out of the table anyway)
I dont think 100% terran balance on Xel Naga either. By terran balance I mean the terran having the gold is whats causing the dominance on that map. Its involved but its more the fact that terran can take the gold while effectively denying your gold that caused the map imbalances that Xel Naga wound up with.
That aspect has always dumbfounded me on a lot of ladder maps. If terrans get the gold, they will not only have a better economy due to mules but they will also deny the gold on yourside of the map.
This is especially problematic on golds that are controlled by highgrounds such as metalopolis and antigashipyard.
On October 29 2011 02:13 Chronald wrote: I realy like the idea of ditching gold minerals. I think that gold bases + mules have been part of th reason that terran has been doing so well. Not all of the reason, but some of it.
Very true. Gold bases don't promote strategic variety, they discourage it. And they're imba to boot. And they look silly in that cartoon yellow color.
On October 28 2011 02:07 GTR wrote: should have removed crossfire instead of xnf but w/e.
Xel'Naga Fortress is tiny and is too susceptible to early timing attacks and Blink all-ins. Crossfire is just a bad map but at least you don't necessarily see the EXACT SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. Both should be removed, Metalopolis should be put back in, and that's that.
As for Winter Belshir Beach, who the hell goes to the beach in the winter???
I like the new map. Free bases ftw! Mvp will love it with his OC spam builds.
I think taking away gold bases makes sense unless MULEs only mine 30 minerals on gold patches. Spamming MULEs on gold expansions and affording an extra base and a half's worth of infantry is insane, and these are by the already increased Terran income standards!
On November 03 2011 15:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: i will miss metalopolis, almost every TvZ on that map (at least given with good players) is really epic xD
I feel the same... I doubt Zergs will feel the same though. There are so many that have lost epic ZvTs on that map where Terran makes a beyond ridiculous comeback. But I still feel it's a great map, especially compared to some of the others on the list (Crossfire?! WTF?!).
I kind of liked the concept of gold minerals at first, but the more I think about it, the more it seems to just add to the volatility to the game, considering it's a high risk, high payback kind of thing... So I'm not sure whehter I want to ever see gold minerals on official tournament maps again...
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