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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On November 16 2011 07:01 Balgrog wrote: Reading this just feels like someone bitching. You are a failed pro complaining that SC2 is going in the wrong direction. You just sound bitter. How constructive. | ||
SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
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lSasquatchl
United States309 Posts
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Xalorian
Canada433 Posts
Peoples complain before the HotS release : IT'S SO DIFFERENT FROM BW! NOTHING IS THE SAME ANYMORE! IT'S NO MORE STARCRAFT! I do agree to a certain extand that, right now, battles are really boring compared to SC:BW. No more micro except Blink/Ghost/Infestor... and it's not really some fun micro to watch. But, I don't think it have anything to do about casters in SC2 but way more about the stupid ball of death so damn easy to achieve by A-Moving, therefore, AoE casters became so freaking effective, because every units are so close to each other at any moment in time. But, I kinda feel like HoTS is actually going in the right direction. At least Zerg are. Why? Viper - Ultralisk - Infestors should be able to destroy every single Deathball formation with ease. Everyone will have to split and focus fire their units way more against Zerg... and if players learn how to micro like gosu because they HAVE to against Zerg... well why not doing it against Terran et Toss too? Same thing for Zerg : With charging Ultra, speed Hydra and Viper, positioning will be everything during engagement and will need way more micro. I hope it will not fail as you think it will, that's for sure. | ||
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Doof
United States204 Posts
On November 17 2011 05:31 KingPwny wrote: Lol@ this post. Ur commenting on HotS before it even comes out is quite silly sir! I think instead of worrying about sc2 going in the wrong direction (for u), u should consider how nice it is not to have to worry about say, dragoon-like AI which is just plain ridiculous. I dunno why, I honestly think ppl just like to whine sometimes? hehe. Ty for ur opnion, I strongly disagree wtf is this, the man is expressing an opinion. you can express your opinion too, but without the BM. Anyway, he's not saying we need dragoon AI. He wants MORE improvements to the game, not less. He's just saying these changes aren't improvements to the game, because they detract from a good player's ability to differentiate himself from a worse player. | ||
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
Play BW! Problem solved! | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
to completely SHIT on something that race is having problems with. I hate that. Why? Why does 1 unit need to completly shit on any number of mutalisks? Maybe mass mutas in lategame is starting to be really strong, but there's no TIME given to protoss players to adjust. Do you remember the bisu vs savior match? Zerg was at like 56% winrate and then went down to like 43% afterwards for a year and a half. No patches came, and zergs FIGURED IT OUT. That doesn't happen anymore. People don't figure stuff out, blizzard tells them how to do stuff. Here is a list of the new things I have a problem with... The Viper: I really want darkswarm back. It's so hard to force a great backstab to happen w/o darkswarm (or lurks), and the way you hold off midgame pushes is pretty much limited to having a big army as opposed to BW where you could invest in tech (defilers) or an army to hold off a midgame push. Creating something like swarm is obviously the intention here, but they wanted to make it different, and here's the result... I can completly shut down all his tanks. I can yank out colossus and never have to worry about a deathball again. Moving Burrowed banelings: Sounds cool, and crowds will love them, but this is a bad idea. It would be like if a DT had a nuke that took 0 time to deploy. Lategame, you're just not going to be able to cover everything and killing all your workers is as simple as shiftclicking 4 banes across map? Shredder. This thing is a fucking tradgedy. Yeah, other things have filled the rolethe shredder aims to fill, but in different ways. Sure; mines, lurkers, etc could shut down a patch from counterattack, but there were drawbacks. Mines are finite. After you detonate a mine, it's gone. This thing is going to stay there until you have an ARMY to come kill it as zerg as it does enought to just make it impossible for lings to kill it. Mines also had a drawback. You could just drag them into your units. Lurkers could fill this same role, but have one firing arc, you could spread out and pick off a lurker. Also a lurker is big sacrifice to the zerg. They're sacrificing a unit that could be contributing to their army to defending. You should not be able to set this thing up and compltely shut down all counters. Replicant. As already stated, this is just about being able to copy tech to stop tech heavy all ins. However, beyond what TT1 was talking about, how do you win with tech against protoss anymore? All of a sudden that infestor ling timing you were doing...gone. He now has a few infestors too, guess you should have made roach hydra. PDD timings? Sup, I have PDD too! This is just a horrible idea of a unit, and I really hope all the casuals who think that copying a unit sounds cool will not influence blizzard into putting this into the game. Arc Shield. As TT1 stated, this shuts down mutaplay and drops, but also, backstabs. Traditionally, zergs had a hard time in this matchup and started to swing back by either A) using late gas to get a ton of drones early and do overwhelm styles, or B) using a lot of drops/ling backstabs to combat the stronger but less mobile protoss. All of a sudden, if I punish a protoss by running my lings into your main while he mispositions his army while taking his third...all his shit are cannons and I can't do any damage. This is also just really bad design. Protoss is supposed to be able to be strung out, if you just remove any risk of getting dropped, backstabbed, etc, how are you going to stop a protoss army (unless you're terran and have EMP) REcall: for many of the same reasons, this just removes risk from doing something stupid with your army. Also you can defend any drop NP. I like the idea of recall, but it's much better on a high tech unit like the arbiter/mothership that you have a finite amount of becuase they cost a lot. Tempest... The idea that one unit just completely shits on anything in the air forever is so stupid. Yeah, scourge were in BW, but you had to spend 75 gas to kill one thing and only could kill it if there wasn't something defending it. WIth this thing, you pay the money and you shit on any number of air units. This is horrible game design. Oracle... The idea of shutting down some mining but you can destroy the crystals is cool. The problem i have is that there's no way to defend this. YOu can only stop this by having units at a base to defend. This is not C&C, armies aren't parked in their base all game. Static defense is there for a reason. Also, being able to compltely stop production of a unit by zerg (if you use it's ability on a roach warren, you can't make roaches) is stupid. We already had a unit (the corrupter) with the same spell, and it was horrible. You could indefinately shut down colossus production; it just isn't a fair spell, they can brute force into your base (unless they have a lot of units there) and just stop you from making something you need to make and win because they couldn't make what they need to make to win. I really hope the community speaks up and tells blizzard they don't want these silly hard counter units/functionalities. HotS will be so unlike SC if it comes out with some of these units, and will make me very sad. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
How constructive. | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On November 18 2011 05:47 Arisen wrote: I agree that several new units/spells are very problematic. In my mind, this is true only because of the reason blizzard is putting them in the game.... to completely SHIT on something that race is having problems with. I hate that. Why? Why does 1 unit need to completly shit on any number of mutalisks? Maybe mass mutas in lategame is starting to be really strong, but there's no TIME given to protoss players to adjust. Do you remember the bisu vs savior match? Zerg was at like 56% winrate and then went down to like 43% afterwards for a year and a half. No patches came, and zergs FIGURED IT OUT. That doesn't happen anymore. People don't figure stuff out, blizzard tells them how to do stuff. Here is a list of the new things I have a problem with... The Viper: I really want darkswarm back. It's so hard to force a great backstab to happen w/o darkswarm (or lurks), and the way you hold off midgame pushes is pretty much limited to having a big army as opposed to BW where you could invest in tech (defilers) or an army to hold off a midgame push. Creating something like swarm is obviously the intention here, but they wanted to make it different, and here's the result... I can completly shut down all his tanks. I can yank out colossus and never have to worry about a deathball again. Moving Burrowed banelings: Sounds cool, and crowds will love them, but this is a bad idea. It would be like if a DT had a nuke that took 0 time to deploy. Lategame, you're just not going to be able to cover everything and killing all your workers is as simple as shiftclicking 4 banes across map? Shredder. This thing is a fucking tradgedy. Yeah, other things have filled the rolethe shredder aims to fill, but in different ways. Sure; mines, lurkers, etc could shut down a patch from counterattack, but there were drawbacks. Mines are finite. After you detonate a mine, it's gone. This thing is going to stay there until you have an ARMY to come kill it as zerg as it does enought to just make it impossible for lings to kill it. Mines also had a drawback. You could just drag them into your units. Lurkers could fill this same role, but have one firing arc, you could spread out and pick off a lurker. Also a lurker is big sacrifice to the zerg. They're sacrificing a unit that could be contributing to their army to defending. You should not be able to set this thing up and compltely shut down all counters. Replicant. As already stated, this is just about being able to copy tech to stop tech heavy all ins. However, beyond what TT1 was talking about, how do you win with tech against protoss anymore? All of a sudden that infestor ling timing you were doing...gone. He now has a few infestors too, guess you should have made roach hydra. PDD timings? Sup, I have PDD too! This is just a horrible idea of a unit, and I really hope all the casuals who think that copying a unit sounds cool will not influence blizzard into putting this into the game. Arc Shield. As TT1 stated, this shuts down mutaplay and drops, but also, backstabs. Traditionally, zergs had a hard time in this matchup and started to swing back by either A) using late gas to get a ton of drones early and do overwhelm styles, or B) using a lot of drops/ling backstabs to combat the stronger but less mobile protoss. All of a sudden, if I punish a protoss by running my lings into your main while he mispositions his army while taking his third...all his shit are cannons and I can't do any damage. This is also just really bad design. Protoss is supposed to be able to be strung out, if you just remove any risk of getting dropped, backstabbed, etc, how are you going to stop a protoss army (unless you're terran and have EMP) REcall: for many of the same reasons, this just removes risk from doing something stupid with your army. Also you can defend any drop NP. I like the idea of recall, but it's much better on a high tech unit like the arbiter/mothership that you have a finite amount of becuase they cost a lot. Tempest... The idea that one unit just completely shits on anything in the air forever is so stupid. Yeah, scourge were in BW, but you had to spend 75 gas to kill one thing and only could kill it if there wasn't something defending it. WIth this thing, you pay the money and you shit on any number of air units. This is horrible game design. Oracle... The idea of shutting down some mining but you can destroy the crystals is cool. The problem i have is that there's no way to defend this. YOu can only stop this by having units at a base to defend. This is not C&C, armies aren't parked in their base all game. Static defense is there for a reason. Also, being able to compltely stop production of a unit by zerg (if you use it's ability on a roach warren, you can't make roaches) is stupid. We already had a unit (the corrupter) with the same spell, and it was horrible. You could indefinately shut down colossus production; it just isn't a fair spell, they can brute force into your base (unless they have a lot of units there) and just stop you from making something you need to make and win because they couldn't make what they need to make to win. I really hope the community speaks up and tells blizzard they don't want these silly hard counter units/functionalities. HotS will be so unlike SC if it comes out with some of these units, and will make me very sad. actually it was the overseer, not the corruptor if corruptors could do that.... it would make them more useful then siphoning | ||
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AimlessAmoeba
Canada704 Posts
How constructive. User was warned for this post | ||
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HoMM
Estonia635 Posts
How constructive. User was warned for this post | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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knL
Germany400 Posts
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Sci
United States2 Posts
New ways of doing things constantly pop up and more and more micro comes out of that. | ||
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
Or maybe they'll wait for LotV to do that. They have a vested interest in NOT having a complete game until all their expacs are out, after all. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote: SORRY ABOUT THE WALL OF TEXT;; I felt like I had to give my thoughts on the new expansion because I'm worried about where our game is heading. For example, units like the newly introduced  replicant go against what StarCraft is about. I'm pretty sure that one of the main reasons this unit was added was so that protoss could hard counter 1basing terrans (please note that I am not talking about how OP or UP the replicant may be, but rather about how its role/function has no place in SC). Adding a unit to the game just so that it can hard-counter a specific style is simply just horrible game design. Could you ever imagine someone trying to explain what the role of the replicant is to a player like  Nal_rA?Nal_rA: "wat does cute lil thing do?" Huge Nal_rA fanboy (aka me): "uhhhhhhh well kangmin hyung there was a certain build in sc2 that had a 90% winrate in tvp so blizzard decided to make a unit that allowed p users to copy a tank in order to defend it" Nal_rA: "LOL" The beauty of sc1 was that the game revolved mostly around melee/ranged attacking units while a few spellcasters (granted they were extremely strong units) acted as supporting units. Players would focus more on micro battles with their attacking units rather than on their spellcasters. Obviously, spell usage still played a huge role but the emphasis was on unit vs unit engagements. I know that it's impossible to have the same type of unit on unit engagements as we did in sc1 simply because the unit ai is so good, but I feel like blizzard is trying to overcompensate for the lack of micro within the game by adding spellcasters. I feel like they're going overboard with it. Starcraftt is not WoW, and our game should not revolve around a shitton of spellcasting units. I know that they're trying to promote more micro/skillsets to the game, but at the same time they're going against what they're aiming for by constantly removing key game mechanics that allow good players stand out. For example: - allowing banelings to move burrowed removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in PvZ. Having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so zergs wont need to upgrade drop anymore. - arc shield removes any sort of threat of muta harass or drop play (pvz and tvp). Being able to defend drops/muta harass with your units was a skill which tested your multitasking abilities, but now with arc shield Blizzard is just making the game much easier to play for protoss users. I wont go too in depth, but I can name various changes Blizzard has made just for the sake of making the game easier to play. Even the in-game timer hurts, because having good game sense/timing was an important skillset in sc1. They need to stop adding useless spellcasters to the game and focus more on adding game mechanics that promote micro engagements, game sense, multitasking etc.(or at the very least stop removing them lol) Also, I just wanted to briefly talk about the new protoss units in HOTS. It feels like each unit that we're getting is extremely role oriented as opposed to the new units from other races. For example, the viper/swarm host are good all-around units which are going to work well vs almost any unit compo. The same can be said for the terran units to an extent; the t/z army mixes are going to be vastly different from the ones that we've been seeing in WoL, but are the protoss army compositions going to be any different? The tempest is an extremely role-oriented unit (that is extremely expensive and supply heavy as well) which will only be made if a zerg goes for a heavy muta composition or lategame broodlords. The oracle is a harasser and the replicant is a horribly designed unit that I don't want to comment upon further. I promise you that a huge majority protoss users are still gonna stick to their gate unit/colo army comps. =/ Our unit variety seriously sucks. edit: made readable by --> intrigue <-- fu This is nothing but a simple straw man argument and is not a valid argument. I really wish I could say more about this, but everything you say is just misplacing the truth in order to support your ideology. | ||
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Orracle
United States314 Posts
On November 17 2011 05:31 KingPwny wrote: Lol@ this post. Ur commenting on HotS before it even comes out is quite silly sir! I think instead of worrying about sc2 going in the wrong direction (for u), u should consider how nice it is not to have to worry about say, dragoon-like AI which is just plain ridiculous. I dunno why, I honestly think ppl just like to whine sometimes? hehe. Ty for ur opnion, I strongly disagree The problem with people arguing about TT1's post is the majority are newer generation players (I'm assuming like you) who never played Broodwars competitively other than some BGH, FMP, or UMS. The races meshed perfectly. The game didn't baby players with this insane unit pathing, and simplified mechanics. One bad engagement on SC2 and you're playing catch up the whole game, and likely will never recover if your opponent has half a brain. I believe TT1 is doing great by voicing his opinion. Some of these units they want to add to HOTS are just insane, and he's stepping up to let them know that. Will community voice generally change their mind? I highly doubt it. | ||
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Sci
United States2 Posts
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On November 18 2011 06:11 Orracle wrote: The problem with people arguing about TT1's post is the majority are newer generation players (I'm assuming like you) who never played Broodwars competitively other than some BGH, FMP, or UMS. The races meshed perfectly. The game didn't baby players with this insane unit pathing, and simplified mechanics. One bad engagement on SC2 and you're playing catch up the whole game, and likely will never recover if your opponent has half a brain. I believe TT1 is doing great by voicing his opinion. Some of these units they want to add to HOTS are just insane, and he's stepping up to let them know that. Will community voice generally change their mind? I highly doubt it. Wait so you say brood war didn't baby players then criticize that with one bad engagement in sc2 you never recover if your opponent is decent? This to me seems terribly contradicting. Not to mention the exact same thing happened in brood war. Unless you want to argue that there were certain times or units in the game that gave one player an incredible advantage that supersedes any previous skill. But then you'd be right back where you started, holding an empty sack. | ||
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stevarius
United States1394 Posts
On November 18 2011 06:13 Sci wrote: I do agree with the replicant being a bad idea though. That really shocked me when I saw that at Blizzcon. It seems like a cop out. This. The only thing I actually agree with is that the Replicant seems like a stupid solution to a problem that Blizzard thinks Protoss has. All the other units made sense to the problems they laid out in the HotS thing at Blizzcon, but not this, | ||
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