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On November 15 2011 12:01 MysteryHours wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 11:51 decemberscalm wrote:On November 15 2011 11:45 MysteryHours wrote:On November 15 2011 10:54 decemberscalm wrote:
If they manage to fit Esports into the equation (which is obviously the afterthought), then its an added bonus. If not, *sigh* oh well. Watching the majestic Flash orchestrate the demise of his opponents never gets old. Sadly watching the GSL has. Well I guess you have to give Blizzard credit then because there's a pretty impressive SC2 e-sports scene given that it was just an "afterthought". Obviously. Bliz has BW and Warcraft to ride on. Their primary focus is what makes money which is why the game is far more accessible. Look at the maps Blizzard put forth at first. Tiny, bloody maps. They wanted people to be able to finish a match quickly, hence the ladder is meant for the masses, not the pros. Is there a seperate ladder for pros? No? What about LAN which is essential for FPS esports and damn near it for RTS esports. Sure was cool when b.net went down during the finals of a major tourney. Its not hard to see esports wasn't a primary focus, making money was, but hey, that's their job. I don't blame them. The point I was trying to make is that e-sports was obviously more than just an afterthought, especially since the game's success as an e-sport will directly translate into more people purchasing the expansions. The large competitive scene that surrounds SC2 isn't an accident, it's because despite what many say the game is actually very well designed, (reasonably) balanced even at high levels of play and great fun to watch.
I got what your trying to say. My main counterpoint is that the legacy of Broodwar is what pumped the scene into what it is. It didn't have a choice of deciding to be an esport or not.
The balance so far has been very volatile, they've been trying to cater to both lower levels and higher levels decently successfully, but the basics of map pooling and features like lan are left out the wind. If the bloody game doesn't even have clan support, how do you except me not to think it was an afterthought? For balance all they have to do is change a few numbers, but the features are not there.
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I think people should try and see that THIS IS STARCRAFT II not BROODWAR. This is a DIFFERENT GAME. Sigh... there are MAJOR differences between sequels of MANY POPULAR games. This is no different. Personally I think replicator is a PERFECT unit for Protoss. It represents technology and has futuristic feel.
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i am also worried about how the game will change, cause it seems like blizzard haven't thought everything through... But hey, thats what beta is for. I am just happy that they removed stuff like the mothership and makes a new unit fullfill the thors role, because the mothership was very easy to kill for a unit that you can only have 1 of, and it could not be buffed cause then it would be way too strong early/mid. And the thor is probably the worst shitter at catching mutas with its slow ms, and is easily killed with magicbox.
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On November 15 2011 12:19 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 12:01 MysteryHours wrote:On November 15 2011 11:51 decemberscalm wrote:On November 15 2011 11:45 MysteryHours wrote:On November 15 2011 10:54 decemberscalm wrote:
If they manage to fit Esports into the equation (which is obviously the afterthought), then its an added bonus. If not, *sigh* oh well. Watching the majestic Flash orchestrate the demise of his opponents never gets old. Sadly watching the GSL has. Well I guess you have to give Blizzard credit then because there's a pretty impressive SC2 e-sports scene given that it was just an "afterthought". Obviously. Bliz has BW and Warcraft to ride on. Their primary focus is what makes money which is why the game is far more accessible. Look at the maps Blizzard put forth at first. Tiny, bloody maps. They wanted people to be able to finish a match quickly, hence the ladder is meant for the masses, not the pros. Is there a seperate ladder for pros? No? What about LAN which is essential for FPS esports and damn near it for RTS esports. Sure was cool when b.net went down during the finals of a major tourney. Its not hard to see esports wasn't a primary focus, making money was, but hey, that's their job. I don't blame them. The point I was trying to make is that e-sports was obviously more than just an afterthought, especially since the game's success as an e-sport will directly translate into more people purchasing the expansions. The large competitive scene that surrounds SC2 isn't an accident, it's because despite what many say the game is actually very well designed, (reasonably) balanced even at high levels of play and great fun to watch. I got what your trying to say. My main counterpoint is that the legacy of Broodwar is what pumped the scene into what it is. It didn't have a choice of deciding to be an esport or not. The balance so far has been very volatile, they've been trying to cater to both lower levels and higher levels decently successfully, but the basics of map pooling and features like lan are left out the wind. If the bloody game doesn't even have clan support, how do you except me not to think it was an afterthought? For balance all they have to do is change a few numbers, but the features are not there.
Brood War certainly set up SC2 for a strong competitive scene out the gate but the fact that it is still going strong over a year later, I think we can say that Blizzard got something right and SC2 isn't just riding BWs coat tails any more. No LAN sucks but I'm sure Blizzard considered the impact on the competivie scene when making that decision. Blizzard's map pools have had some duds but it's not like Blizzard forces tournament organizers to use their maps. Clan support is a nice to have feature, but not a prerequisite for competitive play. I'm still not convinced that Blizzard's attitude toward e-sports is "SC2 as an e-sport? Oh yeah, whatever, we're not really following that".
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On November 15 2011 12:25 ShootingStars wrote:
I think people should try and see that THIS IS STARCRAFT II not BROODWAR. This is a DIFFERENT GAME. Sigh... there are MAJOR differences between sequels of MANY POPULAR games. This is no different. Personally I think replicator is a PERFECT unit for Protoss. It represents technology and has futuristic feel.
I don't think the argument is so much about "make SC2 just like Broodwar!" as it is, lets make SC2 a good Esport. It just so happens BW was a great Esport, and when things arn't working in SC2, it can help to look at the past and see what has already worked successfully.
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I don't agree with everything TT1 said but I definitely do agree that the Replicant is a terrible unit. It seems to me like they couldn't come up with anything that would allow protoss to beat whatever strategies they think are a problem (1/1/1 maybe). Instead they decide that since they can't find a unit that fixes the problem that protoss will just be able to have the units of other races. It honestly feels like the biggest band aid fix imaginable to me.
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On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote:SORRY ABOUT THE WALL OF TEXT;; I felt like I had to give my thoughts on the new expansion because I'm worried about where our game is heading. For example, units like the newly introduced  replicant go against what StarCraft is about. I'm pretty sure that one of the main reasons this unit was added was so that protoss could hard counter 1basing terrans (please note that I am not talking about how OP or UP the replicant may be, but rather about how its role/function has no place in SC). Adding a unit to the game just so that it can hard-counter a specific style is simply just horrible game design. Could you ever imagine someone trying to explain what the role of the replicant is to a player like  Nal_rA? Nal_rA: "wat does cute lil thing do?" Huge Nal_rA fanboy (aka me): "uhhhhhhh well kangmin hyung there was a certain build in sc2 that had a 90% winrate in tvp so blizzard decided to make a unit that allowed p users to copy a tank in order to defend it" Nal_rA: "LOL" The beauty of sc1 was that the game revolved mostly around melee/ranged attacking units while a few spellcasters (granted they were extremely strong units) acted as supporting units. Players would focus more on micro battles with their attacking units rather than on their spellcasters. Obviously, spell usage still played a huge role but the emphasis was on unit vs unit engagements. I know that it's impossible to have the same type of unit on unit engagements as we did in sc1 simply because the unit ai is so good, but I feel like blizzard is trying to overcompensate for the lack of micro within the game by adding spellcasters. I feel like they're going overboard with it. Starcraftt is not WoW, and our game should not revolve around a shitton of spellcasting units. I know that they're trying to promote more micro/skillsets to the game, but at the same time they're going against what they're aiming for by constantly removing key game mechanics that allow good players stand out. For example: - allowing banelings to move burrowed removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in PvZ. Having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so zergs wont need to upgrade drop anymore. - arc shield removes any sort of threat of muta harass or drop play (pvz and tvp). Being able to defend drops/muta harass with your units was a skill which tested your multitasking abilities, but now with arc shield Blizzard is just making the game much easier to play for protoss users. I wont go too in depth, but I can name various changes Blizzard has made just for the sake of making the game easier to play. Even the in-game timer hurts, because having good game sense/timing was an important skillset in sc1. They need to stop adding useless spellcasters to the game and focus more on adding game mechanics that promote micro engagements, game sense, multitasking etc.(or at the very least stop removing them lol) Also, I just wanted to briefly talk about the new protoss units in HOTS. It feels like each unit that we're getting is extremely role oriented as opposed to the new units from other races. For example, the viper/swarm host are good all-around units which are going to work well vs almost any unit compo. The same can be said for the terran units to an extent; the t/z army mixes are going to be vastly different from the ones that we've been seeing in WoL, but are the protoss army compositions going to be any different? The tempest is an extremely role-oriented unit (that is extremely expensive and supply heavy as well) which will only be made if a zerg goes for a heavy muta composition or lategame broodlords. The oracle is a harasser and the replicant is a horribly designed unit that I don't want to comment upon further. I promise you that a huge majority protoss users are still gonna stick to their gate unit/colo army comps. =/ Our unit variety seriously sucks. edit: made readable by --> intrigue <-- fu
I agree that the Replicant is not a unit that belongs in SC2, but they aren't 100% on adding the unit, and can still take it out after they put it in. Hopefully they just don't put it in.
The arc shield is fine as an idea, but I think it should need a cyber core to use it, and the range should be relatively short. If those qualifications are met, I think the skill would be quite balanced and quite useful, but not overly game changing.
The fact that banelings can burrow move changes nothing in PvZ though.... A Protoss simply needs to have an observer in their army and will then be perfectly fine. A Zerg can't just burrow move everything into a Protoss army in the middle of a battle.... the Protoss would kill every single baneling b4 they even try to unburrow.... Zergs NEED to use baneling drops in order for them to be effective. So I completely disagree with you there. Burrow move for banelings hurt mineral lines the most, and even then it's mostly just for terrans who don't have turrets set up. Moving 4 banelings into an SCV line then detonating will be completely monstrous, but Protoss almost always has cannons set up. The skill will help vs bio, vs mineral lines @ expansions, and in ZvZ, but really changes nothing at all in PvZ. Like.... NOTHING.
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The new Protoss units are fucking stupid. I hate them so much. So disappointed and angry at Blizzard that are going to give Protoss the shaft with three jokes of units.
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Now is certainly the time to talk about this stuff.
BW was absolutely made to fill the holes in SC vanilla. They are attempting to do that in SC2 which is good and Blizzard-like, but I too was disappointed in the Protoss units which seemed rushed.
One thing don't agree with on the OP is that spellcasters (this overlaps with units with special abilities, IMO) are bad for the game. Seriously, look at HTs, Defilers, Sci Vessels, Vultures (practically half spell caster), Corsair (half spell caster), etc. made BW the game it is and were all super potent. In fact, I still think the potent units like that make the game more defined than any of the basic units in the long run.
I do agree that the Oracle and Replicant seem like bad designs. The oracle has no flexibility and is too simple, IMO. The Tempest... I think it has a place but I am worried about how it will play out, certainly. The Tempest lacks depth at a glance, and I'm not sure where it can get more depth as it stands and with its cost. Same problem the Colossus had from the beginning when we were all crying to keep the reaver as the Colossus didn't fill the same multiple roles. The replicant... it's just so iffy.
Arc Shield has a place... it fills a gap that Protoss are seeing at many levels including pro. For instance all those games where that one missed FF or one missed warp in allowed lings to run by may have been different with arc shield. P still would be in trouble, but not dead maybe. Basically it just adds to defense which is where Protoss is lacking right now in many situations. A cost effective way to deal with a single cloaked banshee (instead of 2 stalkers and an observer for God's sake). It's not a guarantee of safety though, so I like it.
Recall I still think is the most important thing to be on the nexus for Protoss. It allows options for safe poking where before Protoss was blind. It allows more defense which again Protoss is lacking. It allows Protoss some hope in base trade scenarios. Recall will also be the answer to Abduction perhaps... not sure how I feel about that in particular yet. Overall it will be tricky to balance, but the reduced area and delay on the front end and back end is probably going to be enough to make it far from a get out of jail free card. I see this one thing working out nicely.
Suggestions to Blizzard:
1. Give the Tempest depth. I still think it needs a yamato type spell or something ... or maybe a simple game mechanic to increase micro. But then it'll need speed or ... something for that and how do you balance that, so not sure what. You won't be able to kite with it like a viking or dance with it like a banshee. Maybe give it a spell that drains some power that prevents its AOE from being so big on a cooldown.
2. Keep arc shield and recall on nexus. Great ideas that can be balanced.
3. Replicant... needs a rework probably or we need a cooler basic unit that is also flexible. Still, it has potential.
4. Oracle... I just don't like it. Not cool enough. I don't like the receiving end of it or the giving end of it. I'd much prefer a harassment unit like the reaper or reaver. Or redesign the oracle to fill the roles that the reaver had that the colossus doesn't cover so well.
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i like how people say that replicant will be used against 1/1/1, like all players will just carry over to HotS and use the same old builds with the same old units
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Viper, shredder, battle hellion, oracle and replicant.
just dont call it starcraft 2.
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I'm not too inclined to comment on what HotS will bring until we have something concrete to get our hands on.
That said, I do think Protoss is really kind of hurting not in a balance (separate discussion) way but just as the race of the three that is really lacking any depth or identity. My own feeling is that while T and Z both have a very definitive feel to them, that Protoss is more just a somewhat random collection of units and Blizz is very arbitrarily just giving them new units that fill very specific holes rather than giving them something that allows for depth and variety. It seems like they are actually encouraging the whole hard counter nonsense of "if your opponent makes X, then you make Y, which causes him to make Z and you to make Q, etc". That's the exact kind of thinking they should be discouraging.
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I hope the replicant changes from it's current form (that was shown at blizzcon).
I'd prefer to see it only able to morph into protoss units (to prevent the race losing it's flavour), but let it morph into any protoss unit (even ones you don't have the tech to unlock yet).
This would make it kind of similar to hallucination, except that the units do damage like a proper unit does.
For a downside, make it that the replication is only temporary (say, lasts 15 seconds or something), make it more like a shapeshifter style of unit that you morph to counter what your opponent is coming at you with.
This would add in some extra micro for protoss (switching the units form in battles to counter what the opponent brings), and I think add in some extra spectator entertainment as it leaves you with the suspense just before the battle of what the protoss player is going to morph his replicants into.
So although the replicant in it's current form might not be to everyone's taste, remember that things can still change and hopefully blizzard come up with a more interesting idea for the unit.
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On November 15 2011 18:37 Honner wrote:
I hope the replicant changes from it's current form (that was shown at blizzcon).
I'd prefer to see it only able to morph into protoss units (to prevent the race losing it's flavour), but let it morph into any protoss unit (even ones you don't have the tech to unlock yet).
This would make it kind of similar to hallucination, except that the units do damage like a proper unit does.
For a downside, make it that the replication is only temporary (say, lasts 15 seconds or something), make it more like a shapeshifter style of unit that you morph to counter what your opponent is coming at you with.
This would add in some extra micro for protoss (switching the units form in battles to counter what the opponent brings), and I think add in some extra spectator entertainment as it leaves you with the suspense just before the battle of what the protoss player is going to morph his replicants into.
So although the replicant in it's current form might not be to everyone's taste, remember that things can still change and hopefully blizzard come up with a more interesting idea for the unit.
Copying opponent unit as a way to negate a build is retarded design. Remove this never ending imbalance nightmare. This is not WoW.
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IMO it's kind of a stupid role that doesn't really need to be in the game, but what about making it like the swarm host (and maybe/hopefully removing the swarm host for zerg?).
It will replicate protoss units that have a timed life. You could lets say choose between a stalker every x seconds that lasts for x (or y) seconds, or a zealot that spawns every x - 5 seconds, and lasts x seconds.
I'd guess that wouldn't really fix the problem the unit [originally] supposedly addresses though.
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The replicant isn't in the game guys. We're not even at beta yet.
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I am have open ears for anyone that can justify to me how the nexus recall can be balanced.
Protoss not only has the toughest units, but now they will have the most mobile army in the game. You see how that last sentence doesn't even make sense?
They talk about not adding anymore strength to the deathball.... ummmmm isn't having nexus recall adding strength to the deathball?
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On November 15 2011 12:57 MysteryHours wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 12:19 decemberscalm wrote:On November 15 2011 12:01 MysteryHours wrote:On November 15 2011 11:51 decemberscalm wrote:On November 15 2011 11:45 MysteryHours wrote:On November 15 2011 10:54 decemberscalm wrote:
If they manage to fit Esports into the equation (which is obviously the afterthought), then its an added bonus. If not, *sigh* oh well. Watching the majestic Flash orchestrate the demise of his opponents never gets old. Sadly watching the GSL has. Well I guess you have to give Blizzard credit then because there's a pretty impressive SC2 e-sports scene given that it was just an "afterthought". Obviously. Bliz has BW and Warcraft to ride on. Their primary focus is what makes money which is why the game is far more accessible. Look at the maps Blizzard put forth at first. Tiny, bloody maps. They wanted people to be able to finish a match quickly, hence the ladder is meant for the masses, not the pros. Is there a seperate ladder for pros? No? What about LAN which is essential for FPS esports and damn near it for RTS esports. Sure was cool when b.net went down during the finals of a major tourney. Its not hard to see esports wasn't a primary focus, making money was, but hey, that's their job. I don't blame them. The point I was trying to make is that e-sports was obviously more than just an afterthought, especially since the game's success as an e-sport will directly translate into more people purchasing the expansions. The large competitive scene that surrounds SC2 isn't an accident, it's because despite what many say the game is actually very well designed, (reasonably) balanced even at high levels of play and great fun to watch. I got what your trying to say. My main counterpoint is that the legacy of Broodwar is what pumped the scene into what it is. It didn't have a choice of deciding to be an esport or not. The balance so far has been very volatile, they've been trying to cater to both lower levels and higher levels decently successfully, but the basics of map pooling and features like lan are left out the wind. If the bloody game doesn't even have clan support, how do you except me not to think it was an afterthought? For balance all they have to do is change a few numbers, but the features are not there. Brood War certainly set up SC2 for a strong competitive scene out the gate but the fact that it is still going strong over a year later, I think we can say that Blizzard got something right and SC2 isn't just riding BWs coat tails any more. No LAN sucks but I'm sure Blizzard considered the impact on the competivie scene when making that decision. Blizzard's map pools have had some duds but it's not like Blizzard forces tournament organizers to use their maps. Clan support is a nice to have feature, but not a prerequisite for competitive play. I'm still not convinced that Blizzard's attitude toward e-sports is "SC2 as an e-sport? Oh yeah, whatever, we're not really following that".
Afterthought is probably too strong of a word for what I'm trying to convey then. To articulate it better, Esports isn't Blizzards primary focus with Starcraft 2, which seems pretty bloody apparent to me.
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who can judge starcraft 2 better than those who's been playing starcraft for 10 years? and i'm not talking about those who used to play back in the day, there are those that still play it regularly, those who play it on and off, and those who played regularly for years until sc2.
the way i see it, sc2 hasn't lived up to its name and the new changes aren't helping, especially with toss.
shush with "go play bw" because it ain't even about that.
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On November 15 2011 12:25 ShootingStars wrote:
I think people should try and see that THIS IS STARCRAFT II not BROODWAR. This is a DIFFERENT GAME. Sigh... there are MAJOR differences between sequels of MANY POPULAR games. This is no different. Personally I think replicator is a PERFECT unit for Protoss. It represents technology and has futuristic feel.
Starcraft II is the sequel to Broodwar. It should be similar. Also, Broodwar was near perfect at some stages. A player would win because he's put more effort or is more talented. Winning because you were able to build the right unit...? No thanks.
The lore doesn't make a perfect unit. Many things represent technology and have a futuristic feel. The replicator literally shuts down every cute timing with a high tier unit. A quick ghost timing push, no thanks. I'll just replicate a ghost and emp your ghosts. A quick siege tank push, no thanks. I'll just replicate your tank and give me the advantage. It's just dumb and that's not how a strategy game should work.
If HotS does come out and this is the shit we get.. I'm sticking to WoL until things get sorted and balanced.
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EPT
