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architecture
United States643 Posts
If this were true, we would see BF hellions in midgame T compositions vs Z. The fact is that they are extremely inefficient against lings, and only good early when Z _doesn't_ want to make too many lings. Battle hellion is more likely to be useful against lings in mid/late game. Personally I see battle hellion as more of a TvZ unit than TvP. In TvP, stutter and unit spread is too important to have a bunch of units lag behind. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
dunno wtf u were talking about | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
If BF hellion were superior to 2 marines against lings, wouldn't we see them mixed into midgame compositions, especially given their mobility in helping ling backstabs (drop 1 reactor rax for 1 factory)? They aren't because they are an inferior usage of army food when you hit your 2/3 base timing. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 31 2011 04:42 architecture wrote: They are inefficient in a straightup fight. I don't know how you could contest this, you basically can beat BF hellion with speedling. If BF hellion were superior to 2 marines against lings, wouldn't we see them mixed into midgame compositions, especially given their mobility in helping ling backstabs (drop 1 reactor rax for 1 factory)? They aren't because they are an inferior usage of army food when you hit your 2/3 base timing. What are you going on about.... Hellions are good at dealing with lings they just don't deal with mutas so when you choosing what your min sink to be you tend to stick with marines as you can get them out easier and deal with both mutas/lings where as hellions are harder to get, more expensive and just deal with lings. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
Or the move and shoot micro that is so unresponsive for like tanks, marauders and stalkers. Can't they fix that before adding more spells? | ||
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SkimGuy
Canada709 Posts
On October 31 2011 04:42 architecture wrote: They are inefficient in a straightup fight. I don't know how you could contest this, you basically can beat BF hellion with speedling. If BF hellion were superior to 2 marines against lings, wouldn't we see them mixed into midgame compositions, especially given their mobility in helping ling backstabs (drop 1 reactor rax for 1 factory)? They aren't because they are an inferior usage of army food when you hit your 2/3 base timing. You don't see hellions mixed in because Marines mow down speedlings and they are just that much better for your mineral sink. It's not the point of hellions being bad against lings, it's that balled marines are too good | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
On October 31 2011 04:26 architecture wrote: To the person that was saying that hellions, in their current form, counter lings, I don't know how clueless you are. If this were true, we would see BF hellions in midgame T compositions vs Z. The fact is that they are extremely inefficient against lings, and only good early when Z _doesn't_ want to make too many lings. Battle hellion is more likely to be useful against lings in mid/late game. Personally I see battle hellion as more of a TvZ unit than TvP. In TvP, stutter and unit spread is too important to have a bunch of units lag behind. Mech mate, mech, why you are making the assumption that battle hellions will be used along with bio. While they will be just meat shields for the warhounds, tanks and banshees. At least in TvP. | ||
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Valashu
Netherlands561 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:59 taldarimAltar wrote: I disagree on you saying it's headed in the wrong direction after all it's a different game. The replicant is a cool concept, there are many more strategies than the one you mentioned, but i do think it will get the axe, it seems like a gimmick jsut like the mothership was before WoL was released. I agree that the units are increasingly become role based, i really hate that blizzard has forced us into ways of playing with units that are supposed to counter other units. It makes it more like a glorified game of rock paper scissors. Pardon my manners but it seems like a bitch to balance a unit that can become any non massive unit. It'll either be worthless in all scenarios, be overpowered in all scenarios or worthless in most scenarios and OP if you manage to replicate HT before storm is done researching. This is like Chronoboost++ and imo will just increase 1/2 base all in and REALLY tight timings. I dislike the replicant because it dumbs down the game, the idea might sound cool but if you stop and think about it you see that this is nigh impossible to do right. | ||
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IrOnKaL
United States340 Posts
On a side note the colossus gripping from the viper DID in fact remind me of WoW when I first saw it but that's probably because I wasted 5 years of my life on it as well haha. | ||
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ppdealer
Canada163 Posts
On October 31 2011 04:26 architecture wrote: To the person that was saying that hellions, in their current form, counter lings, I don't know how clueless you are. If this were true, we would see BF hellions in midgame T compositions vs Z. The fact is that they are extremely inefficient against lings, and only good early when Z _doesn't_ want to make too many lings. Battle hellion is more likely to be useful against lings in mid/late game. Personally I see battle hellion as more of a TvZ unit than TvP. In TvP, stutter and unit spread is too important to have a bunch of units lag behind. We don't see BF hellions in midgame TvZ? What else are Terran going to build if they are going mech? Last time I checked, 6 BF hellions can almost kill an infinite amount of lings since the splash overlap so much that it's pretty much impossible to get (and keep) an surround, not off-creep at least. | ||
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SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
On October 31 2011 05:38 Valashu wrote: Pardon my manners but it seems like a bitch to balance a unit that can become any non massive unit. It'll either be worthless in all scenarios, be overpowered in all scenarios or worthless in most scenarios and OP if you manage to replicate HT before storm is done researching. This is like Chronoboost++ and imo will just increase 1/2 base all in and REALLY tight timings. I dislike the replicant because it dumbs down the game, the idea might sound cool but if you stop and think about it you see that this is nigh impossible to do right. How in any way does this unit dumb down the game? It creates such a huge variety of responsive options for protoss. It will shape the game in awesome ways because protoss will try to manipulate the opponent into building replicable units by abusing holes in their defense if they don't build the units. I mean, it will make protoss THE caster race and the players with the best caster micro will likely drift to protoss, but is that so bad? It's not for me, I'm excited to see what pros can do with it. You may be right that the unit may strengthen some timing attacks, but I really don't think it will be unfair. It just makes protoss more versatile. As for being unbalance-able....right, it's unbalance-able in the same way that mind control in BW was unbalance-able. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On October 31 2011 10:20 SolidZeal wrote: How in any way does this unit dumb down the game? It creates such a huge variety of responsive options for protoss. It will shape the game in awesome ways because protoss will try to manipulate the opponent into building replicable units by abusing holes in their defense if they don't build the units. I mean, it will make protoss THE caster race and the players with the best caster micro will likely drift to protoss, but is that so bad? It's not for me, I'm excited to see what pros can do with it. You may be right that the unit may strengthen some timing attacks, but I really don't think it will be unfair. It just makes protoss more versatile. As for being unbalance-able....right, it's unbalance-able in the same way that mind control in BW was unbalance-able. If you honestly think it's a cool unit, and a great idea in general, then you really might want to try out some of the later C&C games. Like half the units in there are similar to the Replicant in their unadulterated gimmickness. They're also awful competitively, but who cares, as long as we can have cool units, right? That comment about Mind Control is just so stupid, I'm not even going to bother replying. If you don't see the difference by yourself, there is no hope for you. | ||
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kiy0
Portugal593 Posts
Everybody is already taking all the units presented at Blizzcon for granted and are mindlessly speculating that, quote, "the game is heading in the wrong direction". The game is not even on alpha... New ideas were presented and you can be a lot is going to change in the up coming months. So please, do us all a favor, and refrain from taking considerations from simple possibilities. | ||
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sDsLuST
15 Posts
It's always these silly little comparisons of SC2, to SC:BW, they're different games, this is what Blizzard wanted to do, not make some new updated, graphic intensive version of BroodWar, it's getting outstandingly childish, complaining about such things. So again, if you don't want to play sc2, go play BroodWar then, it's as simple as that. | ||
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SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
I don't see why you think this unit is so gimmicky in a franchise that has also utilized mind control. It hasn't been used before, but it's not like the ability is really that much of a stretch from previous abilities. It is a concept that has been used to greatly interesting effect in other awesome strategic franchises (specifically I'm thinking of MTG) it can be really cool for starcraft. If you think that the replicant in it's current incarnation wouldn't be used competitively then there is no hope for you. Why would a pro not replicate a ghost unless he thinks the other players caster micro is so much better than his? Even then, at least it would force the other player to try to split his ghosts. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
allowing banelings to move burrowed removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in PvZ. Having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so zergs wont need to upgrade drop anymore. probably was pointed out before but a) they'll probably move pretty damn slowly b) if you have an observer with your army there's no way im even getting there if you have collosus or storm or stalkers c) probably not going to win using banelings late game vs protoss considering I'll have a low gas to beat the protoss deathball that got stronger in hots I agree with your philosophy but not your examples. seems like they're throwing shit in and hoping its going to work | ||
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Iselian
United States56 Posts
But that's a helluva thought process that's A) A little convoluted, and B) Subject to all of this still being *beta* and not at all finalized. It'd be interesting to see what posts might still be hanging around that ranted or discussed the ideas of the Obelisk. Point is, things are always subject to change, and we have no idea how they'll turn out. When the beta is officially and fully opened, we'll get a much better picture as to what can be done. | ||
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xlava
United States676 Posts
On October 31 2011 04:16 ReignFayth wrote: raising the skill ceiling? more like lowering it?  Yeah I know what you're thinking. I'm just trying to take the optimistic side of it. My theory is that since everything will become so simple, players will have to go above and beyond the metagame in order to do things only the top players can do. Maybe it won't raise the skill ceiling, but it will at least widen it, if you get my drift.. | ||
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zyzski
United States698 Posts
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