On October 29 2011 07:00 NineteenSC2 wrote: Just watched HD's video on new protoss units and I've gotta say, I've changed my mind.
Initially I agreed with TT1, but when you watch the video it allows you to really get a feel for the units (since you see them in combat, etc...)
Just no. Replicant has no place in SC2, this is not WoW. Stop adding gimmicks, fix the core issues first. They are getting close to balance with end of WoL, why not work "off" of it. I'm not implicating they just copy it, i'm saying bring the entire core that "works," and add to that instead of ignoring the OLD issues and introducing knew potential imbalances before you've fixed the previous ones. They're just delaying old balancing priorities into the neverending future. Does anyone else see what they're doing?
meh. i dont agree. that has nothing with wow to do. but i get your point the only thing that i dont like is the 3spells x caster this makes them to powerful, they have to much flexibility. i would prefer 2 or one spells=yes but spread out in the race make the ghost only snipe/cloak give emp someone else infestor only fungal without freeze +infested give freeze someone else like the viper +NP or his speel to grab units its the same shit.
that would look so much better when a pro is controlling 4different speelcaster that have a nice synergy.
as it is now you just see emp/storm/ff spams and chain fungals
Just no. Replicant has no place in SC2, this is not WoW. Stop adding gimmicks, fix the core issues first. They are getting close to balance with end of WoL, why not work "off" of it. I'm not implicating they just copy it, i'm saying bring the entire core that "works," and add to that instead of ignoring the OLD issues and introducing knew potential imbalances before you've fixed the previous ones. They're just delaying old balancing priorities into the neverending future. Does anyone else see what they're doing?
stop this BS. i know TT1 is a pretty good player with good knowledge of the game and all, but i hate this mindset him and so many other players have. who are you to say what has and does not have a place in SC2?
secondly STOOOOOP comparing this game to fucking WoW and BW. if you are going to make stupid comparisons like that then you mind as well compare it to a zelda/halo/any RTS/etc game. this is SC2 a ENTIRELY diffrent game from BW and WoW. its not suppose to be like any of those games and the direction its heading is its OWN direction. id rather go in my OWN direction then follow in the shadow/direction of something completly diffrent because if i do that then in the end ill be exactly like the person im following. and it seems that is what most ppl on TL want, for this game to be exactly like BW but its not going to happen. so just stop with these stupid comparisons.
blizz knows exactly what there doing and they know what direction they want SC2 to go. if the replicant turns out to not befor SC2 for example then they will change it, plain and simple. they did it before and got rid of alot of alpha units that were suppose to be in SC2 but didnt make the cut. that is what betas are for FFS. the complaining and whining of things thare are not even 100% guranteed to make it into the game is just stupid. play the beta and THEN whine.
i mean if you guys are seriously dead set on hating on a game/units for that game that hasnt even been released or tested yet then fine, play on the WoL ladder. blizz is giving you that option. if u hate the direction HoTS is taking SC2 then dont play it and dont buy it. ITS THAT SIMPLE. you can play WoL and not ever have to buy HoTS or LoTV (when that comes out). you have choices and options, its not like they are forcing this on you. and for the people that like the direction SC2 is headed then we will buy HoTS and we will LOVE it.
its that simple people, there isnt even a reason to complain when blizz is giving u these options.
On October 28 2011 12:42 DTX180 wrote: Again, it goes back to the damage system. SC2's damage system makes battles insanely fast and are focused mostly on can you get that first strike in position. Which is because SC1's damage system made certain units good vs others because they were taking less damage. Surviving longer, and making battles slower. However, this allowed much much more micro opportunities.
SC2's battles are over within a small fraction of time compared to SC1's.
It literally has nothing to do with the damage system, damage is both games is the same, just in SC2 it is expressed in a much more legible fashion.
10 (+10 vs Armored) is the same as 20 (50% damage vs non-Armored).
In fact a lot of things do much less damage in SC2 than they did in BW. Stalkers do less than Dragoons, Psionic Storm does 2/3rds the damage it did in BW, the burst damage of Colossus is a joke compared to Reavers, cracklings do much less damage, Siege Tanks do significantly less, etc.
it as quite a bit to do with the damage design. And although the SC2s system COULD emulate BW's damage system, It doesn't.
one of the main problems are T1/small hardcounters: hellions, banelings, colossi there was nothing compareable in BW: -Firebats sucked against anything else -Vultures were VERY micro intensive, and sucked against anything else (excluding mines) -Lurkers were Tier 2 and had to depoly/needed micro, and could be dodged -Archons were T3, short range, expensive and sucked against ranged unit -Storm was T3.5, needed micro, could be dodged, templars were easy to snipe
the main problems are of course the horrible new pathing/movement system (making AoE and balls ridiculously strong) and bad unit design. But it's still quite a bit of bad damage design that lies as the bottom of this.
But....none of those have anything to do with the damage system!
Hellions suck against anything that isn't light, just like Firebats and Vultures, and while they don't reward micro as much as Vultures, they still die even to Speedlings unless controlled. What you say about Lurkers is true but has nothing to do with the damage system. Banelings aren't very micro intensive but they still suck against non-light units and can be kited. Archons are practically the same, they just don't attack as fast and don't have slidey movement anymore. Storm is definitely easier to cast now, but it's also weaker. I don't see what this has to do with the rest of your points.
Are these arguments meant to be seperate from your first point regarding the damage sytem? You should really qualify it when you say "it as quite a bit to do with the damage design".
I agree I was kind of unclear.
First, I did mention, that my point didn't actually concern the system itself but how it is applied (damage design). What I wanted to say with the example was that the 3 units I mentioned do too much damage against T1.
-Hellions deal similar damage to light as a lurker, but also have high mobility. They simply deal too much damage vs. zealots/lings (maybe even marines, depending on situation). They already counter them without the blueflame upgrade.
-Banelings are pretty much the same: they are too damage and time efficient vs. zealots/lings. I don't know what do do with them, but probably changing their AoE to gradually weaken the further other units are away would help.
-Colossi also deal too much damage against light/small units. the question here is: what is their point, countering armored or light units? If armored, the damage should go down a lot and there should be bonus damage vs. armored. If light, the damage just should go down. because at the moment, they are a hard core counter vs. light, that is also very good against everything else.
(and as I mentioned, the main problems of the AoE of the 3 units lie with the pathing system. but disregarding the pathing system, it is the damage design that is the problem)
But compare all those units to their counterparts in Brood War, and you'll see they aren't that different.
Vultures destroy Zerglings, Zealots and Marines. Speed Zealots can stand up to Vultures, but the same is true for charge Zealots to Hellions. Vultures don't do splash but their single-target damage is much, much higher than Hellions. A Hellion probably has to hit 4-5 targets to out DPS a Vulture, and that won't happen too often early game except with conga line'd Zerglings.
Banelings are quite different from anything in BW, but at the same time they have a very similar relationship with Marines. If you just A-move Marines into Banelings or Lurkers, you'll get destroyed. But with good micro and splitting, you will win easily.
Colossus dominate the ground in much the same way as Reavers did, they're just easier to control. A Colossus is essentially designed to be equivalent to a well micro'ed Shuttle-Reaver combination. Nobody caan micro 8 shuttle-reavers simultaneously, which is probably the true "problem" (are they really a problem? Complaining about Colossus deathballs is sooo 10 months ago): how many Colossus work just as well as a few.
If a BW Protoss ever got 5 Reavers out on the field, there was no way he would ever lose to a ground-based army.
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Are you under the impression you don't have to research Storm in SC2? Otherwise I'm not sure what you're saying.
I really have no idea why you think Archons are lower tech or come out earlier in SC2, if you rush straight for them, it takes 15 seconds less in SC2 (in-game time), but it's much less common to go straight for storm in SC2 than it was in BW. Archons are certainly tankier in SC2 than in BW, because of how Shields are affected by bonuses, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Archons definitely held their own against Hydralisks, they did about as well as Zealots and much better than Dragoons.
You specifically said "in BW, Storm could be dodged", seems to be implying that it can't be/is harder to dodge in SC2. Explain please if that's not what you meant. I'm not sure I agree about sniping Templar, but it's kind of irrelevant.
I don't think the pathing has anything to do with the strength of massed ranged units against units with no AoE support. It's the simple fact that range allows you to have more units attacking at once, and to switch targets immediately after one enemy goes down. Go make a BW map and try a-moving zerglings at a pack of 30 marines: whether in a line or in a ball, the zerglings will get mucked. There are mods of SC2 with different pathing AI, I'm sure if you tried it you would see that in engagements without splash damage, it wouldn't make a big difference on the outcome.
Hellion: probably doesn't need more than 2 targets to deal as much damage as a vulture. and you hit a lot more when you fight zealots/lings. Baneling: what about zealots and zerglings? (microed marines are kinda imba, I agree) Colossus: with the exception of AoE and being built in the Robo, the reaver has no similarity to the colossus. they have pretty different roles in the game.
Archons: you get them as soon as you have templars, for storm you have to wait for he upgrade to finish. getting kind of annoyed though... the templar etc. are irrelevant, the argument was about the three units mentioned and that there were no similar units in BW. you might just read what i wrote:
"one of the main problems are T1/small hardcounters: hellions, banelings, colossi there was nothing compareable in BW:"
there is no similar unit to the 3 units I mentioned. the hellion might seem to be similar to the vulture but it really isnt. AoE makes quite a difference here.
It's a fact that the pathing makes sure units stand a lot closer together in sc2. while it is present in both games, it is much more pronounced in SC2.
Hellions attack quite slowly. It's hard to compare directly but a BW Vulture gets in around two attacks for every time the Hellion fires. That's 40 damage from the Vulture, 10 from the Hellion. So the Hellion needs to hit 4 targets to have equal DPS. With Blue Flame it's better of course, but on the flipside there are Spider Mines, which also annihilate Tier 1 units.
There are plenty of hardcounters to T1 in BW. Again I will emphasize that the mere possibility of Reavers showing up meant that Terrans would never make more than 4 marines (to fill a bunker), unless they were doing a cheese. Small numbers of Vultures in the early game completely rout Zerglings, as do Firebats. Lurkers will decimate Marines if they aren't controlled very carefully.
It is definitely true that the pathing system makes AoE attacks stronger, which is why most (all?) AoE effects are considerably nerfed from their BW counterparts. I do not think AoE causes a problem in gameplay, and it can certainly create some very exciting moments for spectating.
Just no. Replicant has no place in SC2, this is not WoW. Stop adding gimmicks, fix the core issues first. They are getting close to balance with end of WoL, why not work "off" of it. I'm not implicating they just copy it, i'm saying bring the entire core that "works," and add to that instead of ignoring the OLD issues and introducing knew potential imbalances before you've fixed the previous ones. They're just delaying old balancing priorities into the neverending future. Does anyone else see what they're doing?
stop this BS. i know TT1 is a pretty good player with good knowledge of the game and all, but i hate this mindset him and so many other players have. who are you to say what has and does not have a place in SC2?
secondly STOOOOOP comparing this game to fucking WoW and BW. if you are going to make stupid comparisons like that then you mind as well compare it to a zelda/halo/any RTS/etc game. this is SC2 a ENTIRELY diffrent game from BW and WoW. its not suppose to be like any of those games and the direction its heading is its OWN direction. id rather go in my OWN direction then follow in the shadow/direction of something completly diffrent because if i do that then in the end ill be exactly like the person im following. and it seems that is what most ppl on TL want, for this game to be exactly like BW but its not going to happen. so just stop with these stupid comparisons.
blizz knows exactly what there doing and they know what direction they want SC2 to go. if the replicant turns out to not befor SC2 for example then they will change it, plain and simple. they did it before and got rid of alot of alpha units that were suppose to be in SC2 but didnt make the cut. that is what betas are for FFS. the complaining and whining of things thare are not even 100% guranteed to make it into the game is just stupid. play the beta and THEN whine.
i mean if you guys are seriously dead set on hating on a game/units for that game that hasnt even been released or tested yet then fine, play on the WoL ladder. blizz is giving you that option. if u hate the direction HoTS is taking SC2 then dont play it and dont buy it. ITS THAT SIMPLE. you can play WoL and not ever have to buy HoTS or LoTV (when that comes out). you have choices and options, its not like they are forcing this on you. and for the people that like the direction SC2 is headed then we will buy HoTS and we will LOVE it.
its that simple people, there isnt even a reason to complain when blizz is giving u these options.
Yes Sc2 is a different game but you would think professional BW gamers would know a thing or two about that kind of games make good esports. Anyone who was around to play and see BW as it got so big has a good idea of what kind of games make good esports. If those people are concerned about where Sc2 is going I'm inclined to at the very least take a very close at what they are concerned about.
So far Blizzard has shown they are not inclined to do so and I believe that is a huge mistake and disservice esports.
Also I could be just as mad about people not comparing the game to BW as you are about people comparing the two. BW is where it all started. The success of BW defines what it means to be a successful esport. Its the golden standard by which all other esports can be measured for success. What the hell is wrong with expecting or at least hoping that Blizzard would look at what elements of BW made it the most successful competitive RTS to date when trying to build another. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying they need to copy BW at all, but everything they have announced about HoTS shows that they don't even have the basics.
Blizzard claims to support esports. I call BS, they want to make money.
I dont think its the damage system so much as the overall efficiency of the AI and game itself. BW isn't the most fluid game, pros have to work insanely hard to make the battles look as fluid as they do. In SC2, along with the fact its actually 3D and units have more degrees of freedom to move, they also attack smarter. Battles can go faster, but they don't have to I don't think if you baby-sit the units more effectively. Its different, and the game severely punishes mid to late game screw ups as hard as losing 1 or 2 units early game. The window is smaller if your opponent prepared the attack properly.
If a BW Protoss ever got 5 Reavers out on the field, there was no way he would ever lose to a ground-based army.
That actually couldn't be more wrong. Reaver's attack is so slow that with group of Hydras you can easily kill 5 Reavers with proper split. It kinda sounds like you've never played Brood War.. Even big number of lings can kill 5 Reavers if they attack properly. Now, how many Hydras or Lings do you need to kill 5 Colossus?
If a BW Protoss ever got 5 Reavers out on the field, there was no way he would ever lose to a ground-based army.
That actually couldn't be more wrong. Reaver's attack is so slow that with group of Hydras you can easily kill 5 Reavers with proper split. It kinda sounds like you've never played Brood War.. Even big number of lings can kill 5 Reavers if they attack properly. Now, how many Hydras or Lings do you need to kill 5 Colossus?
Hellions attack quite slowly. It's hard to compare directly but a BW Vulture gets in around two attacks for every time the Hellion fires. That's 40 damage from the Vulture, 10 from the Hellion. So the Hellion needs to hit 4 targets to have equal DPS. With Blue Flame it's better of course, but on the flipside there are Spider Mines, which also annihilate Tier 1 units.
There are plenty of hardcounters to T1 in BW. Again I will emphasize that the mere possibility of Reavers showing up meant that Terrans would never make more than 4 marines (to fill a bunker), unless they were doing a cheese. Small numbers of Vultures in the early game completely rout Zerglings, as do Firebats. Lurkers will decimate Marines if they aren't controlled very carefully.
It is definitely true that the pathing system makes AoE attacks stronger, which is why most (all?) AoE effects are considerably nerfed from their BW counterparts. I do not think AoE causes a problem in gameplay, and it can certainly create some very exciting moments for spectating.
if you really want to argue that vultures were as good a counter to lings as hellions are now, be my guest. I'm not gonna waste time on this anymore.
and it is STORM that stops terrans building marines, not reavers.
On October 26 2011 11:44 Tektos wrote: I respect your opinion but I disagree, I like the direction SC2 is heading.
You like it because sc2 is probably your first game. But imagine all the BW players, seeing the game they grew up with heading this direction. It must be really sad for them,
On October 26 2011 11:44 Tektos wrote: I respect your opinion but I disagree, I like the direction SC2 is heading.
You like it because sc2 is probably your first game. But imagine all the BW players, seeing the game they grew up with heading this direction. It must be really sad for them,
Boo hoo. They can go play BW if they don't like SCII. SCII isn't a remake, and with the pathing, even if they just put in the BW units, the game would still need a ton of patches.
Yeah they are going quite overboard on the new units and abilities. It seems less and less skill is needed to play newer games or expansions. SC2 is now more like a engage -> spam spells and micro slightly. Nowadays you have in a typical TvP engagement T does this: engage -> EMP -> PDD -> Stim -> Siege up -> then go microing units and kiting zealots. P does this: engage -> Guardian Shield -> Storms -> Feedback spell casters -> Forcefields -> micro units slightly, but more importantly warp in another 20 zealots in 5 seconds for reinforcement. I think that micro is still very important, but it is less important than what it used to be, like in BW. With the new units and spells in HoTS, it just seems to be more spell spam wars.
Often, I felt like Blizzard made the wrong choice and, in the end, everything was actually working smoothly. Sure, there are things we love in the current game or in the oldest game from Blizzard, and it's hard to acknowledge that, has new expansions and new games comes, things that we love can disappear (lurker please come back !). But it seems Blizzard knows how to do things the right way and, in the end, they rarely fail.
But, there is one bad exemple : WoW vanilla was one of the best game and all the new expansions only made the game worst in my opinion, so Blizzard can still fail.
On October 29 2011 20:49 SEA KarMa wrote: Yeah they are going quite overboard on the new units and abilities. It seems less and less skill is needed to play newer games or expansions. SC2 is now more like a engage -> spam spells and micro slightly. Nowadays you have in a typical TvP engagement T does this: engage -> EMP -> PDD -> Stim -> Siege up -> then go microing units and kiting zealots. P does this: engage -> Guardian Shield -> Storms -> Feedback spell casters -> Forcefields -> micro units slightly, but more importantly warp in another 20 zealots in 5 seconds for reinforcement. I think that micro is still very important, but it is less important than what it used to be, like in BW. With the new units and spells in HoTS, it just seems to be more spell spam wars.
Name one ability they introduced in HotS for Terran or Protoss that works like that. Nothing they introduced buffs the "ball battles." If anything, the spells they introduced do the exact opposite of what you are saying.
These complaints are just ridiculous at this point.
The problem is that blizzard lacks fundamental RTS imagination.
There are DOZENS of other ways to have units project damage, provide defensive capabilities, or augment other unit capabilities but blizzard is lacking in this exploration. Most of the new stuff (replicant, oracle, big thor, ultra charge etc.) are just gimmicky one-dimensional nonsense. There are no new units or even new capabilities which have a core utility which can be used in manifold ways to produce creative, multi-dimensional, evolving play. The only possible exception to this is the new dark swarm.
On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote: I wont go too in depth, but I can name various changes Blizzard has made just for the sake of making the game easier to play.
This is pretty much the crux of the argument, and I have mixed feelings about it.
Making the game easier to play will have a double effect. It could end up raising the skill ceiling since the more complex strategies would involve using your units in more strategic ways to circumvent the "easy counters" Blizz seems to be putting in the game. On the other hand, it could do exactly what you said and essentially linearize the game into something where every unit and strategy has a direct hard counter. THIS would kill the game imo.
So yeah I have to agree. I think the replicant is a terrible unit, will be horrendously OP and should be removed. Btw I play Protoss too.
But in the end we'll have to wait for a public beta to be released so we can truly see if the unit is actually broken. Blizz has removed units after beta testing before, I'm sure they'll be willing to do so again.
On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote: I wont go too in depth, but I can name various changes Blizzard has made just for the sake of making the game easier to play.
This is pretty much the crux of the argument, and I have mixed feelings about it.
Making the game easier to play will have a double effect. It could end up raising the skill ceiling since the more complex strategies would involve using your units in more strategic ways to circumvent the "easy counters" Blizz seems to be putting in the game. On the other hand, it could do exactly what you said and essentially linearize the game into something where every unit and strategy has a direct hard counter. THIS would kill the game imo.
So yeah I have to agree. I think the replicant is a terrible unit, will be horrendously OP and should be removed. Btw I play Protoss too.
But in the end we'll have to wait for a public beta to be released so we can truly see if the unit is actually broken. Blizz has removed units after beta testing before, I'm sure they'll be willing to do so again.
EPT
