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I have faith that Blizzard will release a good product in the end. If you look at the old previewed WoL units there were a lot of terrible things in there, but they didn't make it in the end. I'm pretty sure what they showed at Blizzcon is not what we'll be seeing in the end. They just had to put on a show for Blizzcon, and maybe gauge the communitys reaction.
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I've had a long-suspicious theory that Boxer convinced blizzard to make Terran imbalanced with handjobs( who would turn down boxer? )
Thank you for confirming.
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who are we to decide which direction is wrong? how can we know what a starcraft game has to be, when there was just one game (sc1/broodwar). for example: wc3 is NOTHING like wc2, but there was no wc2 community to complain about how wc is heading in the wrong direction, and even if so, nobody outside this community would care. sc2 is blizzards game, they own the franchise, they define what starcraft is, not the community, and they can do whatever they want, and whatever they do, it is BY DEFINITION the right direction.
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Of all people I would expect a pro gamer to understand that without significant play testing it is impossible to accurately speculate about how HoTS will change SC2. There is going to be a beta for a reason. Blizzard is making it easier for each race to deal with things they have problems with... is that not the purpose of balance? SC2 is receiving balance work because it's a work in progress. When people talk about how win rates got skewed in BW for months at a time after new builds were discovered, they're ignoring the fact that it was after BW had been out for years after the expansion came out.
I can't believe this discussion about SC2 being too easy is coming back because it was retarded the first time, and it's still retarded. If SC2 is so easy shouldn't you be out there winning every tournament? Oh wait, it's a multiplayer game, which means that the difficulty is determined by differences in player skill. And don't even try to say the skill ceiling has been reached, because everyone here knows that isn't true.
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I have three reasons why I disagree with the way Blizzard is handling the direction of SC2
1) Replicator, pretty much your point. Copying units? I can understand mind control but having an infinite range and copying units to counter a strategy by using that said strategy/different race strat IE siege tanks to hold off pushes is ridiculous. Its not what SC2 is about, We need proper offensive spell casters/defensive too I guess, because thats what SC has always been, not utility.
2) Illogical reason for this one, Warhounds. Just the art design 
3) The fact that blizzard is giving so many options to shut down Mutas is a problem. In SC, mutas are the god of harrassment but with the new units such as Tempest and warhounds (Thors but really, did they need AOE damage? I mean goliath didn't have AOE damage just quite high burst and that did fine)
But then again, we'll have to see what the future holds for us, hm?
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I absolutley hat ethe replicant too, I just dont like it in any way. Also protoss sohuld get some good solid unit for the army instead of more casters, they are too reliant on Aoe as it is already.
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For some reason I feel like pointing out a couple errors in your post.
I'm pretty sure that one of the main reasons this unit was added was so that protoss could hard counter 1basing terrans (please note that I am not talking about how OP or UP the replicant may be, but rather about how its role/function has no place in SC).
Nope, blizzard's made it pretty clear that they're trying to make mech viable against protoss in hots. Just because tanks are only being used currently in 1 base all ins against toss and that the main demo of the replicant was used against a tank does not mean it was designed entirely to counter Terran 1 base all ins.
And even if mech is still trash against protoss, try thinking about late game PvT at the moment. Replicants change every engagement against the currently popular ghost bio viking mix enormously. Being able to replicate 1 ghost means that the terran has to split his ghosts like you do your templars or lose all his emp's to one of yours. And even if you're playing MVP, which you're not, forcing that split means his emp's won't be accurate due to every ghost being a different distance from the target being emp'ed. It also means your zealots have a much higher chance of charging fast enough to avoid an emp while balled up, making it take 3-4 times as many emp's to hit every unit you have. And if you're not playing a top korean terran, then emp'ing 7-10 ghosts before his emp's get off ends the game.
- allowing banelings to move burrowed removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in PvZ. Having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so zergs wont need to upgrade drop anymore.
Too many things wrong to point out here.. Baneling burrow move is a hive upgrade. Bane drops have always, always been used at lair tech. It's been a more mobile alternative to hive tech/broodlords. Baneling burrow move requires more tech with a fraction of the harass ability of bane drops, the comparison between the two is trash as neither serve the same purpose.
Apart from that, I agree about the new toss units being somewhat gimmicky and not as solid as the new t or z units. The tempest seems like it'll be gone after a few months here, seems pretty obviously just kinda tacked on at the last minute for blizzcon. So if that's replaced with something useful, toss will be in a very nice spot due to nexus recall and all the non-committal aggression that'll be possible.
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i have to agree with the fact that the replicator is such an un-original idea.
I also think it is highly idiotic to take out the tempest for carrier. buff carrier but how can you get rid of it?! blizz even said during sc2 beta that carrier was a unit that HAD to be in the game.
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On November 16 2011 07:01 Balgrog wrote:
Reading this just feels like someone bitching. You are a failed pro complaining that SC2 is going in the wrong direction. You just sound bitter.
Translation: I'm a bitter terran and have nothing as a counter to the OP's argument. Therefore I randomly insult the OP and his credibility while pretending to be an internet tough guy and have 0 skill to back it up.
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tt1 the infamous 6 gate user/abuser, complaining that sc2 is "going in the wrong direction" and that "Blizzard has made the game easier to play"
Ironic much?
also; none of the new units, uses or stats are even final, why are people still making threads theorycrafting like this.
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It sounds to me like a replicant can do more than just copy siege tanks. I'd hate to say it was created for the sole purpose of stopping the marine tank banshee all-in. In fact, I'm under the impression that the immortal range buff was what blizzard thought would do the trick. Since I've never gotten a beta key for fuck all from Blizz I guess I'll just have to hope that participants in the HotS beta are vocal and diligent in their testing of this unit in many situations. This actually sounds more to me like an all-purpose unit that any other in the game since you can take a technological disadvantage which you have, and turn it against your opponent.
EXAMPLE (Using PvP): Guy goes DT. You have an obs and a replicant. Copy DT ---> Win. You feel somehow more skilled than your opponent, and he feels like a total dumbass for giving you a cloaked unit to rep. while he doesn't have detection himself. I have difficulty buying any pig-headed argument where people say this unit was created for one purpose.
EDIT: Removed a line I feel might get me a warning...
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On November 18 2011 06:25 Kefka.dancingmad wrote:
I've had a long-suspicious theory that Boxer convinced blizzard to make Terran imbalanced with handjobs( who would turn down boxer? )
Thank you for confirming.
too bad it didnt work, it seems to have backlashed and they applied it to zerg
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On November 18 2011 05:55 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 05:47 Arisen wrote:
I agree that several new units/spells are very problematic. In my mind, this is true only because of the reason blizzard is putting them in the game....
to completely SHIT on something that race is having problems with.
I hate that. Why? Why does 1 unit need to completly shit on any number of mutalisks? Maybe mass mutas in lategame is starting to be really strong, but there's no TIME given to protoss players to adjust. Do you remember the bisu vs savior match? Zerg was at like 56% winrate and then went down to like 43% afterwards for a year and a half. No patches came, and zergs FIGURED IT OUT. That doesn't happen anymore. People don't figure stuff out, blizzard tells them how to do stuff.
Here is a list of the new things I have a problem with...
The Viper: I really want darkswarm back. It's so hard to force a great backstab to happen w/o darkswarm (or lurks), and the way you hold off midgame pushes is pretty much limited to having a big army as opposed to BW where you could invest in tech (defilers) or an army to hold off a midgame push. Creating something like swarm is obviously the intention here, but they wanted to make it different, and here's the result... I can completly shut down all his tanks. I can yank out colossus and never have to worry about a deathball again.
Moving Burrowed banelings: Sounds cool, and crowds will love them, but this is a bad idea. It would be like if a DT had a nuke that took 0 time to deploy. Lategame, you're just not going to be able to cover everything and killing all your workers is as simple as shiftclicking 4 banes across map?
Shredder. This thing is a fucking tradgedy. Yeah, other things have filled the rolethe shredder aims to fill, but in different ways. Sure; mines, lurkers, etc could shut down a patch from counterattack, but there were drawbacks. Mines are finite. After you detonate a mine, it's gone. This thing is going to stay there until you have an ARMY to come kill it as zerg as it does enought to just make it impossible for lings to kill it. Mines also had a drawback. You could just drag them into your units. Lurkers could fill this same role, but have one firing arc, you could spread out and pick off a lurker. Also a lurker is big sacrifice to the zerg. They're sacrificing a unit that could be contributing to their army to defending. You should not be able to set this thing up and compltely shut down all counters.
Replicant. As already stated, this is just about being able to copy tech to stop tech heavy all ins. However, beyond what TT1 was talking about, how do you win with tech against protoss anymore? All of a sudden that infestor ling timing you were doing...gone. He now has a few infestors too, guess you should have made roach hydra. PDD timings? Sup, I have PDD too! This is just a horrible idea of a unit, and I really hope all the casuals who think that copying a unit sounds cool will not influence blizzard into putting this into the game.
Arc Shield. As TT1 stated, this shuts down mutaplay and drops, but also, backstabs. Traditionally, zergs had a hard time in this matchup and started to swing back by either A) using late gas to get a ton of drones early and do overwhelm styles, or B) using a lot of drops/ling backstabs to combat the stronger but less mobile protoss. All of a sudden, if I punish a protoss by running my lings into your main while he mispositions his army while taking his third...all his shit are cannons and I can't do any damage. This is also just really bad design. Protoss is supposed to be able to be strung out, if you just remove any risk of getting dropped, backstabbed, etc, how are you going to stop a protoss army (unless you're terran and have EMP)
REcall: for many of the same reasons, this just removes risk from doing something stupid with your army. Also you can defend any drop NP. I like the idea of recall, but it's much better on a high tech unit like the arbiter/mothership that you have a finite amount of becuase they cost a lot.
Tempest... The idea that one unit just completely shits on anything in the air forever is so stupid. Yeah, scourge were in BW, but you had to spend 75 gas to kill one thing and only could kill it if there wasn't something defending it. WIth this thing, you pay the money and you shit on any number of air units. This is horrible game design.
Oracle... The idea of shutting down some mining but you can destroy the crystals is cool. The problem i have is that there's no way to defend this. YOu can only stop this by having units at a base to defend. This is not C&C, armies aren't parked in their base all game. Static defense is there for a reason. Also, being able to compltely stop production of a unit by zerg (if you use it's ability on a roach warren, you can't make roaches) is stupid. We already had a unit (the corrupter) with the same spell, and it was horrible. You could indefinately shut down colossus production; it just isn't a fair spell, they can brute force into your base (unless they have a lot of units there) and just stop you from making something you need to make and win because they couldn't make what they need to make to win.
I really hope the community speaks up and tells blizzard they don't want these silly hard counter units/functionalities. HotS will be so unlike SC if it comes out with some of these units, and will make me very sad. actually it was the overseer, not the corruptor if corruptors could do that.... it would make them more useful then siphoning
Actually, it was the corruptor. THey removed it in the beta because everyone complained about it (particularly protoss, ironically). Don't correct someone if you don't know what you're talking about.
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I think i have to disagree with the banelings. If you did try to burrow underneath the forcefields against a stalker colossus army, they would just move back and target the banes wouldnt they? Drops would be much more effective
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I believe at blizzcon they said they were making the spell casters incredibly strong purposefully, not that I don't agree with TT1. I feel as though they're implying a huge nerf to most of them. Why they would do this I'm not certain. Perhaps to draw in a spike of new crafties while all of their commercials air. Hopefully they will not make the commercial the actual opening scene of the game, as they did with WOL. I would like to see a live-action advertisement done by WETA. Did you see their halo shit!?!?!?!?!?!?
Also who knows what content will change before release. How much will replicants cost or how fast will banelings move while burrowed? The only Zerg units that can move while burrowed are armored, which I dont think is a coincidence. It would make sense for one of the lightest units to not be able to move fast if they can burrow.
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On November 18 2011 06:51 RogerX wrote:
I have three reasons why I disagree with the way Blizzard is handling the direction of SC2
1) Replicator, pretty much your point. Copying units? I can understand mind control but having an infinite range and copying units to counter a strategy by using that said strategy/different race strat IE siege tanks to hold off pushes is ridiculous. Its not what SC2 is about, We need proper offensive spell casters/defensive too I guess, because thats what SC has always been, not utility.
The whole "copying units to counter a strategy" is something that people crafted up. That is not really the units design. The units design is still basically mind control. If you can understand mind control you should be able to understand the replicator. If you have a unit with MC, it would have the same end result as the replicator.
3) The fact that blizzard is giving so many options to shut down Mutas is a problem. In SC, mutas are the god of harrassment but with the new units such as Tempest and warhounds (Thors but really, did they need AOE damage? I mean goliath didn't have AOE damage just quite high burst and that did fine)
But then again, we'll have to see what the future holds for us, hm?
BW made units specifically to shut down mutas too... corsair and valkyrie. Terran had irradiate too, but I doubt that was made to counter mutalisks originally. In SC2, protoss doesnt have anything but HT's to handle mass mutas, its very similar to the problem that they had in BW... this is essentially adding corsairs to protoss. Though they seem less mobile than sairs.
Overall, I think things are going in a good direction. I disagree with a few things, but think its going well. For example, I think moving burrowed banelings would be too strong in the current metagame (though that may shift) and the protoss nexus summon sounds overpowered in its current state. 3 gate blink into warp everything back home can deal tons of damage with little lost (among other possible strategies).
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On November 18 2011 06:51 RogerX wrote:
I have three reasons why I disagree with the way Blizzard is handling the direction of SC2
3) The fact that blizzard is giving so many options to shut down Mutas is a problem. In SC, mutas are the god of harrassment but with the new units such as Tempest and warhounds (Thors but really, did they need AOE damage? I mean goliath didn't have AOE damage just quite high burst and that did fine)
But then again, we'll have to see what the future holds for us, hm?
If you look at the new units in Brood War, you'll see that this is just another similarity between the two games.
Medics - essential for defeating Mutalisks with Bio
Goliaths - got a range upgrade to better deal with air harassment
Valkyries - dedicated Air-to-Air splash damage unit
Dark Archon - long range AoE spell that locks down Biological units (i.e. Mutalisks)
Corsair - dedicated Air-to-Air splash damage unit
Devourer - dedicated Air-to-Air unit with an AoE effect that slows attack rate
Brood War was pretty much a huge balance patch to nerf Mutalisks.
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I totally agree with TT1, totally. The game is going to the wrong direction without a doubt, the longer it stays the deeper it goes... Sad, but it's true.
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One look at the shredder tells me something is wrong with the new expansion... that thing is so going to be nerfed
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On November 18 2011 15:04 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 05:55 Zergrusher wrote:On November 18 2011 05:47 Arisen wrote:
I agree that several new units/spells are very problematic. In my mind, this is true only because of the reason blizzard is putting them in the game....
to completely SHIT on something that race is having problems with.
I hate that. Why? Why does 1 unit need to completly shit on any number of mutalisks? Maybe mass mutas in lategame is starting to be really strong, but there's no TIME given to protoss players to adjust. Do you remember the bisu vs savior match? Zerg was at like 56% winrate and then went down to like 43% afterwards for a year and a half. No patches came, and zergs FIGURED IT OUT. That doesn't happen anymore. People don't figure stuff out, blizzard tells them how to do stuff.
Here is a list of the new things I have a problem with...
The Viper: I really want darkswarm back. It's so hard to force a great backstab to happen w/o darkswarm (or lurks), and the way you hold off midgame pushes is pretty much limited to having a big army as opposed to BW where you could invest in tech (defilers) or an army to hold off a midgame push. Creating something like swarm is obviously the intention here, but they wanted to make it different, and here's the result... I can completly shut down all his tanks. I can yank out colossus and never have to worry about a deathball again.
Moving Burrowed banelings: Sounds cool, and crowds will love them, but this is a bad idea. It would be like if a DT had a nuke that took 0 time to deploy. Lategame, you're just not going to be able to cover everything and killing all your workers is as simple as shiftclicking 4 banes across map?
Shredder. This thing is a fucking tradgedy. Yeah, other things have filled the rolethe shredder aims to fill, but in different ways. Sure; mines, lurkers, etc could shut down a patch from counterattack, but there were drawbacks. Mines are finite. After you detonate a mine, it's gone. This thing is going to stay there until you have an ARMY to come kill it as zerg as it does enought to just make it impossible for lings to kill it. Mines also had a drawback. You could just drag them into your units. Lurkers could fill this same role, but have one firing arc, you could spread out and pick off a lurker. Also a lurker is big sacrifice to the zerg. They're sacrificing a unit that could be contributing to their army to defending. You should not be able to set this thing up and compltely shut down all counters.
Replicant. As already stated, this is just about being able to copy tech to stop tech heavy all ins. However, beyond what TT1 was talking about, how do you win with tech against protoss anymore? All of a sudden that infestor ling timing you were doing...gone. He now has a few infestors too, guess you should have made roach hydra. PDD timings? Sup, I have PDD too! This is just a horrible idea of a unit, and I really hope all the casuals who think that copying a unit sounds cool will not influence blizzard into putting this into the game.
Arc Shield. As TT1 stated, this shuts down mutaplay and drops, but also, backstabs. Traditionally, zergs had a hard time in this matchup and started to swing back by either A) using late gas to get a ton of drones early and do overwhelm styles, or B) using a lot of drops/ling backstabs to combat the stronger but less mobile protoss. All of a sudden, if I punish a protoss by running my lings into your main while he mispositions his army while taking his third...all his shit are cannons and I can't do any damage. This is also just really bad design. Protoss is supposed to be able to be strung out, if you just remove any risk of getting dropped, backstabbed, etc, how are you going to stop a protoss army (unless you're terran and have EMP)
REcall: for many of the same reasons, this just removes risk from doing something stupid with your army. Also you can defend any drop NP. I like the idea of recall, but it's much better on a high tech unit like the arbiter/mothership that you have a finite amount of becuase they cost a lot.
Tempest... The idea that one unit just completely shits on anything in the air forever is so stupid. Yeah, scourge were in BW, but you had to spend 75 gas to kill one thing and only could kill it if there wasn't something defending it. WIth this thing, you pay the money and you shit on any number of air units. This is horrible game design.
Oracle... The idea of shutting down some mining but you can destroy the crystals is cool. The problem i have is that there's no way to defend this. YOu can only stop this by having units at a base to defend. This is not C&C, armies aren't parked in their base all game. Static defense is there for a reason. Also, being able to compltely stop production of a unit by zerg (if you use it's ability on a roach warren, you can't make roaches) is stupid. We already had a unit (the corrupter) with the same spell, and it was horrible. You could indefinately shut down colossus production; it just isn't a fair spell, they can brute force into your base (unless they have a lot of units there) and just stop you from making something you need to make and win because they couldn't make what they need to make to win.
I really hope the community speaks up and tells blizzard they don't want these silly hard counter units/functionalities. HotS will be so unlike SC if it comes out with some of these units, and will make me very sad. actually it was the overseer, not the corruptor if corruptors could do that.... it would make them more useful then siphoning Actually, it was the corruptor. THey removed it in the beta because everyone complained about it (particularly protoss, ironically). Don't correct someone if you don't know what you're talking about.
Corruptor had it originally. It was removed from corruptors and given to overseers, it is now known as contaminate. I dont remember people complaining it was overpowered, I remember people complaining because it was put on a useless unit at the time.
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