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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
Congrats. Not sure what the point of posting it was. what starcraft was was a systematic exploration of variations. It took new ideas and tried them out ... Why not just go and play BW? That said, all this hype about new units really shows they dont understand the crowd. I have to say i think people are fucking with something when they dont understand why it worked int he first place and are hoping and praying that they can somehow fluke an amazign game again. | ||
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SzaszaG
Hungary120 Posts
At least if you want to keep the HyperGhost (Instant AoE Silence + Instant AoE Damage vs Protoss + Invisibility just for FuN) as a "Simple" unit for Terran, than at least Give something for the Protoss to be able to Defend the Colossi from the ! 9 Range ! Vikings... I really hope you don't think Protoss can win against Terran without AoE Damage, while Silenced plus reduced to ~60% Life ?!? Do you ?!? | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
Now there is always the argument if SC1 was so polished why not just take SC1 into SC2...well when you think about it they did try to, to an extent. They had a lot of the old BW units in sc2 when it was still in late alpha and beta. However, with SC2 you got a revamped more intelligent AI, which frankly to sell the game was needed. Had they not updated the AI the game would of felt dated and probably not of received good reviews and not of sold as well as it did. So TLDR by the end of beta a lot of old BW units were to strong or to weak with the new AI and on top of that the old balance wasn't the new balance with the new AI so they had to keep the # of units manageable from a balance perspective. So now with HOTS they are going to add some new units to try to fix issues with the current game. Issues that in their opinion go beyond meta game development. Things like Zerg having a rough time ending the game with an advantage in the mid game (in comes SH and Viper). Things like the Thor being a kind of odd unit really only widely used in mech comps in TvZ. The carrier frankly not working right with SC2 and Toss needing an answer to mass air other then kill them before they get 30 mutas. The list goes on and on, but at the end of the day from the explanations of the new units I've seen it's more about filling gaps in the way the races play then simply adding new compositions.Blizzard themselves made it clear they were not looking to add options to either the P or T death ball, hence why you don't have units that work in that function. So essentially the complaints you've made seem a bit premature from a development of SC2 point of view (not a wait till beta comes pov) with how young SC2 is compared to the dev time put into SC1/BW. SC2 from the get go with the new AI was never going to play the same as BW, so it might take a different route of unit development to eventually get to that point. Frankly I think it'd be most reasonable to expect SC2 to be on the level of SC1 as far as skill and play goes sometime by around a year or two after legacy of the void, then to expect the same polish in only 1 years time. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia987 Posts
That being said I guess everyone wants to talk about it so I'd like to ask, Could anyone give me where the OP got that the replicant was made to counter 1-1-1? (It sounds like a dumb unit I agree but is that really its purpose? Haven't watched the teasers properly fill me in if they openly said this was its function). | ||
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merz
Sweden2760 Posts
On November 19 2011 00:58 Nerski wrote: I keep help but be critical of the assessment, especially when you consider the polish that brood war was at by around 2005 to 2006 and the time it took to get there versus the fact that SC2 has been out for just over a year. If you looked at SC1 vanilla, then to broodwar around 1998, those 2 versions were not even the same in game play. Then add another 8 years of patching after that and finally by around 2006 you had the game you are comparing SC2 to. Now there is always the argument if SC1 was so polished why not just take SC1 into SC2...well when you think about it they did try to, to an extent. They had a lot of the old BW units in sc2 when it was still in late alpha and beta. However, with SC2 you got a revamped more intelligent AI, which frankly to sell the game was needed. Had they not updated the AI the game would of felt dated and probably not of received good reviews and not of sold as well as it did. So TLDR by the end of beta a lot of old BW units were to strong or to weak with the new AI and on top of that the old balance wasn't the new balance with the new AI so they had to keep the # of units manageable from a balance perspective. So now with HOTS they are going to add some new units to try to fix issues with the current game. Issues that in their opinion go beyond meta game development. Things like Zerg having a rough time ending the game with an advantage in the mid game (in comes SH and Viper). Things like the Thor being a kind of odd unit really only widely used in mech comps in TvZ. The carrier frankly not working right with SC2 and Toss needing an answer to mass air other then kill them before they get 30 mutas. The list goes on and on, but at the end of the day from the explanations of the new units I've seen it's more about filling gaps in the way the races play then simply adding new compositions.Blizzard themselves made it clear they were not looking to add options to either the P or T death ball, hence why you don't have units that work in that function. So essentially the complaints you've made seem a bit premature from a development of SC2 point of view (not a wait till beta comes pov) with how young SC2 is compared to the dev time put into SC1/BW. SC2 from the get go with the new AI was never going to play the same as BW, so it might take a different route of unit development to eventually get to that point. Frankly I think it'd be most reasonable to expect SC2 to be on the level of SC1 as far as skill and play goes sometime by around a year or two after legacy of the void, then to expect the same polish in only 1 years time. Bolded part is a common misconception. There were no balance changes in Brood War after the 1.08 patch that was released 2001. What happened in 2005-2006 was simply PvZ being re-invented by some brilliant P players such as Bisu. Also RTS as a genre was still relatively young when SC/BW was released. You can't compare an old game like SC/BW to SC2. Realistically with the expertise and routine we have today, balancing SC2 should not take more than 1-2 years. | ||
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QNdie
Poland210 Posts
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
On November 19 2011 01:09 dignitas.merz wrote: Bolded part is a common misconception. There were no balance changes in Brood War after the 1.08 patch that was released 2001. What happened in 2005-2006 was simply PvZ being re-invented by some brilliant P players such as Bisu. Also RTS as a genre was still relatively young when SC/BW was released. You can't compare an old game like SC/BW to SC2. Realistically with the expertise and routine we have today, balancing SC2 should not take more than 1-2 years. While it's true they didn't make stat changes, they were changing things from 1.14 (2006) up to the last patch 1.16 (2008) under bug fixes and exploits that still affected game play. So that's really the point that I was trying to make there. I do agree comparing isn't realistic which was in part the point I was trying to make. But it did take from vanilla in march of 1998 until 2001 for them to even stop making balance changes. So I think it's reasonable to expect the game to not be 'as perfect as it will get' until a year or two after legacy of the void. Which does fit your time frame if you consider it's likely to see major unit changes like HOTS in LOTV. | ||
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
On November 19 2011 01:39 QNdie wrote: I remember how the design fellows at blizzcon said that they literally thought of the replicant in like 5 minutes because they didn't have time to do anything else. <--- saaaaaaaaaaad You know what should've taken them even quicker to think of and execute? The reaver. | ||
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Fabozi
Slovakia336 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On November 19 2011 05:10 Fabozi wrote: Your assumption about the replicant is just wrong. After the patch the 1/1/1 is not looking so strong anymore. So no replicant wasn't designed just for that. not so strong?... nothing changed the strengh of that build, mlg is coming we'll see what builds are going to be pulled when their tournament life is on the line  | ||
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wishbones
Canada2600 Posts
"if these kids could turn SC1 units which were probably thought up in 5 minutes also, into a new breed of esports, then hell why cant we do that again, if it works, then fuck yeah, if not, lets do another concoction of units!" but thats just my two cents without reading a single story-like post from this thread. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
6 range immortal and people adapting makes it less strong. It is still strong, just not as strong. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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ComplexConf
Ireland161 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On November 19 2011 01:09 dignitas.merz wrote: Bolded part is a common misconception. There were no balance changes in Brood War after the 1.08 patch that was released 2001. What happened in 2005-2006 was simply PvZ being re-invented by some brilliant P players such as Bisu. Also RTS as a genre was still relatively young when SC/BW was released. You can't compare an old game like SC/BW to SC2. Realistically with the expertise and routine we have today, balancing SC2 should not take more than 1-2 years. I'm not going to deny that you're right: that would be outright stupid. However, bear in mind that maps had a huge impact on balance, even if Blizzard had next to no input into the ICCUP maps etc. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On November 19 2011 05:14 freetgy wrote: not so strong?... nothing changed the strengh of that build, mlg is coming we'll see what builds are going to be pulled when their tournament life is on the line nothing changed the strength of the build, it's just protoss started learning how to adapt to it. this is also a point on why a game made today doesn't necessarily take a shorter time to balance, as the metagame is dependent on how people adapt to the game. | ||
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
On November 19 2011 05:14 freetgy wrote: not so strong?... nothing changed the strengh of that build, mlg is coming we'll see what builds are going to be pulled when their tournament life is on the line .....are you serious? Look at how many TvPs in GSL have involved the 1-1-1 in the past month. Oh that's right, barely any!! The majority of pro Korean terrans, who are lightyears beyond the best foreigner terrans (see how the foreign Code A invites always end up), open a greedy fast expand into bio play. If the best players aren't employing something regularly that was *once* employed regularly, chances are, it's not a viable opening anymore. | ||
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Buffinator
United States9 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On November 19 2011 05:28 chenchen wrote: If the best players aren't employing something regularly that was *once* employed regularly, chances are, it's not a viable opening anymore. or there are better openings to metagame on after people have been killed time and time again by it... | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On November 19 2011 05:33 Buffinator wrote: I think Blizzard is taking Starcraft 2 in a interesting direction. I think the replicant is a very interesting unit and think it will make for very interesting battles and strategies expecilly in multplayer battles. I hope it stays in the game and not too much more changes game wise. Can't wait to see how HOTS turns out when its finally available. very interesting unit?...... why? wtf | ||
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