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United States7483 Posts
On October 26 2011 15:49 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:36 Daralii wrote:On October 26 2011 15:31 Runaground wrote:
Oh my god, that's a terrible change.. EMP-ing zealots has been already very difficult due to their charge and mass, not it has become even worse. Now area has been reduced from 12 to 7, it's HUGE nerf. I have no idea how much ghosts you should have to successfully and fast EMP the toss army.
Upgrade change cost is unbelievable, such a big cost reduce. In any case toss gets his upgrades maxed much faster than terran does, so what's the point? You know that, with the resources saved by the time we have 3-0-3 post-patch, we'll be able to build a single stalker? Exactly. People need to get over their initial excitement, and look at this objectively. People are confusing the direction of the buff (Protoss got buffed) with the actual effects of the buff (Protoss gets 1 extra stalker from the sunk cost of a couple of upgrades). Similarly, the ghost nerf shows some reasoning "in the right direction" but it still fails to address the core problem. EMP isn't just "OP" good - it's "overkill" good. Ghosts tech is cheaper, faster to come, and requires no research. Ghost as a unit has much better range on snipe and EMP, EMP is instant cast and unavoidable, affects all Protoss units...
BTW - is it just me or did this alleged "lategame chargelot" problem not exist before Blizzard used it to justify Battle Hellions?
A lot of terrans were complaining that Protoss was able to occasionally win a game.
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On October 26 2011 15:36 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:31 Runaground wrote:
Oh my god, that's a terrible change.. EMP-ing zealots has been already very difficult due to their charge and mass, not it has become even worse. Now area has been reduced from 12 to 7, it's HUGE nerf. I have no idea how much ghosts you should have to successfully and fast EMP the toss army.
Upgrade change cost is unbelievable, such a big cost reduce. In any case toss gets his upgrades maxed much faster than terran does, so what's the point? You know that, with the resources saved by the time we have 3-0-3 post-patch, we'll be able to build a single stalker?
Since when have stalkers cost 150/150? If you proposed an extra colossus, you would be closer. (Gas is more important.)
Also the shield change should be very big.
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On October 26 2011 15:55 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:35 SedativeDev wrote:
Well my fellow terran brethren. Looks like we have to suck it up one more time like we allways have to...
EMPing those fat infestors gonna be even harder. Well shit happen. Lets just play to be a better gamer, wins don't matter.
Yeah, you guys really sucked it up when khaydarin amulet and flux vanes got removed from the game, you guys get nerfed so hard and so much.
well at least your last sentence is correct. I agree with it...
(i know it's sarcasm but you got that right  )
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On October 26 2011 15:50 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:44 Phyrful wrote:
With perfect continuous chronoboosting, after 280 seconds Protoss has a 75/75 edge over the old armor upgrade, and a 175/175 edge over the old shields upgrade, for a total of 250/ 250. That's like two extra sentries and a stalker after over at least 4 & 2/3 minutes of upgrading. I can't see this being metagame breaking. that means you get upgrades faster. And the diference in price is quite huge, 2 sentries is a lot because money you safe earlier is really important. Protoss all ground army gets bonuses from same attack upgrade, not like other races, and they have CB and price is reduced it's just funny..
You say its ridicolous because of chronoboost?
Then I say level 1 Terran Bio upgrades should cost 350 Minerals because of mules... See how that logic simply does not apply at all? Every Race has one Mechanic that helps them Macro in a different style, you can not always argue "Chronoboost is so imba he can keep every upgrade chronoboosted, meanwhile chronos out Colossi and builds all his Probes twice as fast"
That is what people say about Protoss.. Well then how about the infinite resources of Terran with perma vision of the entire map, only paying 50 Minerals for 8 Supply?
Get over it.
Yes this IS a slight buff for Protoss, but as you might or might not know Protoss units are extremely expensive and not always cost efficient. Upgrades is one way to ensure they are at least a little more useful.
Also "you safe so much money so early... yeah, I can afford 2 forges only off of 2 bases so I now save 25/25 between minute 8 and 10ish... THAT IS HUGE thats like.... not even a Probe!
On October 26 2011 15:59 Sea_Food wrote:
Since when have stalkers cost 150/150? If you proposed an extra colossus, you would be closer. (Gas is more important.)
Also the shield change should be very big.
Well I'm not sure about the shield Change.. almost every unit has more HP than shield, Zealots twice as much. Since Zealots are what I want to tank the damage against Terran Bio (namely Marines) I think the shield upgrade will not be that strong.. Especially against EMP.
"Hey I invested 675-675 for my shields! Oh he got 3 Ghosts gg  "
I think the Shield upgrade might be good vs Zerg though, love upgraded Archons vs Zerg. (They also deal with mutas pretty well!)
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United States7483 Posts
On October 26 2011 16:00 SedativeDev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:55 Whitewing wrote:On October 26 2011 15:35 SedativeDev wrote:
Well my fellow terran brethren. Looks like we have to suck it up one more time like we allways have to...
EMPing those fat infestors gonna be even harder. Well shit happen. Lets just play to be a better gamer, wins don't matter.
Yeah, you guys really sucked it up when khaydarin amulet and flux vanes got removed from the game, you guys get nerfed so hard and so much. well at least your last sentence is correct. I agree with it... (i know it's sarcasm but you got that right )
And yet terrans still dominate the scene. Funny huh?
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On October 26 2011 15:49 Brotocol wrote:
BTW - is it just me or did this alleged "lategame chargelot" problem not exist before Blizzard used it to justify Battle Hellions?
It's just you, IMO. I actually started playing Protoss instead of Terran for a little while because of it, and beat Terrans of equal or higher skill than me (as in, my [lack of] skill with Protoss) by going chargelot/archon. Even beat a Masters Protoss that was off-racing as Terran with half the APM he had. :/
I've since started throwing down a bunch of factories once I scout the Protoss going extremely chargelot heavy, but hellions in their current form aren't well equipped to deal with chargelots that swarm around your army. You can make it work by far exceeding your opponent's APM (my average is somewhere around 50% higher during engagements, sometimes more than 100%) and outplaying them in the micro battle, but it takes quite a bit of work and relies on your opponent not slamming you before you can get decent hellion production up and running -- factories are rare in TvP, since mech isn't viable in the matchup for WoL outside of some lame all-ins.
I couldn't hold down my excitement when it was revealed that the battle hellion wasn't just the product of the community's extremely creative imagination when looking at the teaser silhouette. Talking about it just makes me want HotS to come out even faster ~_~
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why the fuck do protoss need to have cheaper upgrades? I mean they get upgrades pretty fast already, and so does terran. I have no idea why they wouldn't do something else to toss like reducing sentry cost maybe or something else because cheaper upgrades seems stupid when toss already goes fast upgrades.
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On October 26 2011 16:01 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 16:00 SedativeDev wrote:On October 26 2011 15:55 Whitewing wrote:On October 26 2011 15:35 SedativeDev wrote:
Well my fellow terran brethren. Looks like we have to suck it up one more time like we allways have to...
EMPing those fat infestors gonna be even harder. Well shit happen. Lets just play to be a better gamer, wins don't matter.
Yeah, you guys really sucked it up when khaydarin amulet and flux vanes got removed from the game, you guys get nerfed so hard and so much. well at least your last sentence is correct. I agree with it... (i know it's sarcasm but you got that right ) And yet terrans still dominate the scene. Funny huh?
yea they pretty dominated the last IEM, IPL, MLG, ESWC...
well i'm not gonna argue anymore. It's stupid. We'll just have to adapt.
cheers
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Think Huk just won code S haha.
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Hey, first post on tl. Amazing community guys; keep it up.
What I think that the problem isn't the radius rather that ghost has the emp. For a terrans perspective it's obvious to build ghost almost no matter what ur facing (against P). Indeed nerfing the radius will help out, but i'll guess they'll just add another 2-3 ghosts to spam emp all over the place.
My vote would go that give the emp spell to raven, so terrans atleast need to make a choice, do I need emp/medivacs or vikings? That would bring out the raven abit more, also we would see the other spells used much more. Instead of M/M/M + Ghost.
For the upgrades...guess we'll have to see. Maybe someone goes for a 3forge build? :-)
Peace.
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On October 26 2011 15:56 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:49 Brotocol wrote:On October 26 2011 15:36 Daralii wrote:On October 26 2011 15:31 Runaground wrote:
Oh my god, that's a terrible change.. EMP-ing zealots has been already very difficult due to their charge and mass, not it has become even worse. Now area has been reduced from 12 to 7, it's HUGE nerf. I have no idea how much ghosts you should have to successfully and fast EMP the toss army.
Upgrade change cost is unbelievable, such a big cost reduce. In any case toss gets his upgrades maxed much faster than terran does, so what's the point? You know that, with the resources saved by the time we have 3-0-3 post-patch, we'll be able to build a single stalker?
BTW - is it just me or did this alleged "lategame chargelot" problem not exist before Blizzard used it to justify Battle Hellions? People were saying that it kept mech from being viable, but those were the only complaints I'd ever heard. Well micro'd marines with ghost and/or viking support dealt with chargelot/HT comps before, and I doubt it'll change.
I just thought I missed something, since several people in this thread were complaining about needing something to deal with chargelots...
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On October 26 2011 15:56 Whitewing wrote:A lot of terrans were complaining that Protoss was able to occasionally win a game.
~50% adjusted win rate in PvT everywhere except Masters/Grandmasters Korea isn't too bad, man. Us folk playing on the NA server don't have anything to truly complain about, even though I personally feel I can barely win against Protoss because I'm silly and try to play a macro game in TvP. ^o^
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ghost are expensive so I heard..
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I laugh a bit inside when somebody complains about protoss upgrades being cheaper. By 3attack/armor, I've saved myself a grand total of 75/75. You know what I'm going to buy? I'll buy one extra observer and a probe! Genius! I'll never lose a game again!
People have to realize that by the time I put money towards 3 attack/armor, I'll already be taking my 3rd vs Terran and maybe even 4th vs Zerg. I'll save money to continue upgrading straight away regardless. There are extremely rare scenarios where one unit extra would've made a difference.
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Firstly I play zerg and secondly....holy shiiiieeeeet. All out protoss buffs and to top it off ghost emp radius has been decreased. GOOD TIMES! Congrats protoss players!
as if the map pool changes werent enough, god damn!
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T v Z is going to be harder now
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On October 26 2011 16:06 stormfoxSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:49 Brotocol wrote:
BTW - is it just me or did this alleged "lategame chargelot" problem not exist before Blizzard used it to justify Battle Hellions? It's just you, IMO. I actually started playing Protoss instead of Terran for a little while because of it, and beat Terrans of equal or higher skill than me (as in, my [lack of] skill with Protoss) by going chargelot/archon. Even beat a Masters Protoss that was off-racing as Terran with half the APM he had. :/ I've since started throwing down a bunch of factories once I scout the Protoss going extremely chargelot heavy, but hellions in their current form aren't well equipped to deal with chargelots that swarm around your army. You can make it work by far exceeding your opponent's APM (my average is somewhere around 50% higher during engagements, sometimes more than 100%) and outplaying them in the micro battle, but it takes quite a bit of work and relies on your opponent not slamming you before you can get decent hellion production up and running -- factories are rare in TvP, since mech isn't viable in the matchup for WoL outside of some lame all-ins. I couldn't hold down my excitement when it was revealed that the battle hellion wasn't just the product of the community's extremely creative imagination when looking at the teaser silhouette. Talking about it just makes me want HotS to come out even faster ~_~
You don't absolutely have to do a lategame tech switch to mass hellion to deal with chargelots, you know...
Factories aren't common in TvP for a reason...
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United States7483 Posts
On October 26 2011 16:08 SedativeDev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 16:01 Whitewing wrote:On October 26 2011 16:00 SedativeDev wrote:On October 26 2011 15:55 Whitewing wrote:On October 26 2011 15:35 SedativeDev wrote:
Well my fellow terran brethren. Looks like we have to suck it up one more time like we allways have to...
EMPing those fat infestors gonna be even harder. Well shit happen. Lets just play to be a better gamer, wins don't matter.
Yeah, you guys really sucked it up when khaydarin amulet and flux vanes got removed from the game, you guys get nerfed so hard and so much. well at least your last sentence is correct. I agree with it... (i know it's sarcasm but you got that right ) And yet terrans still dominate the scene. Funny huh? yea they pretty dominated the last IEM, IPL, MLG, ESWC... well i'm not gonna argue anymore. It's stupid. We'll just have to adapt. cheers
How about GSL where the best of the best players are? Y'know, the season of 20 terrans? Or maybe that Terran is the race that has won the most GSLs (and the most runners up in the GSL)?
Balance for the highest level, and right now, that's Gom TvT.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 26 2011 16:11 stormfoxSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:56 Whitewing wrote:A lot of terrans were complaining that Protoss was able to occasionally win a game. ~50% adjusted win rate in PvT everywhere except Masters/Grandmasters Korea isn't too bad, man. Us folk playing on the NA server don't have anything to truly complain about, even though I personally feel I can barely win against Protoss because I'm silly and try to play a macro game in TvP. ^o^
I was referring to the comment about chargelots being too hard for terran to deal with.
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Protoss is getting more and more interesting - i also prefer the new protoss units than the zerg units in hots. thinking about a race switch..
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EPT
