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willoc
Canada1530 Posts
Some key points: - The Swarm Host generate the units automatically. - The generated units are rallied. - The units have decent dps and health (they are basically uber-workers, not like a broodling or an infested terran). - The units do not need to do damage to be effective. They can basically lock the opponent into HAVING to defend a position even if they are not taking damage. If they stop defending it, they will actually take some serious and on-going damage from the generated units. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On October 25 2011 00:13 Umpteen wrote: If you find Zerg too difficult, you still can pick Protoss or (god beware!) Terran.The problem for me is they STILL haven't given Zerg a unit that can attack (repeatedly) while burrowed. 1 DT or 1 Banshee = Detect me now or I will fuck you up. Swarm Host = Detect me at your leisure as I dispense small numbers of slow, armoured zerglings through your simcity towards ranged attackers at long intervals. Yet again Zerg gets something that requires 10 times the investment to be useful. I consider Zerg a very strong race in the right hands. I play zerg myself and when I lose, I only blame myself. I don't even want Blizzard to make zerg easy because when I win, I know I earn it. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
The swarm host is another example. Can the SH only spawn units when the enemy is nearby? What's the duration of the locusts? How durable is the SH itself? Why were the SH all alone? Seems like a unit that needs to be guarded to be effective. Infestors would go great with them to fungal anything that tries to move forward and take them out, this should have been illustrated in the demo. Now, what I did manage to see was that: - Locusts are somewhat durable. - Locusts have very good dps. Although this is kind of hard to distinguish as some of the damage done was due to the friendly-fire of the tanks in the demo (another fail in showcasing the unit) - The respawn on the locusts looks like it takes too long - The locusts aren't fast enough, they need to be able to close the distance faster. Now, if I can spawn the locusts without an enemy being nearby and if the movement speed gets a decent buff, these could potentially be good. The demo makes it seem like the optimal range in which they can be used is at least in your opponent's sight. If I can go further out though and the locusts are fast enough to get in and do even a little damage before getting blown to pieces, or having their duration expire then that's something to consider. Essentially, I would have a unit with greater range than any siege unit because the source of the locusts are safely far away, and not in a position that is immediately known. Not only that, but if they can still attack from far away this could give the zerg a chance to fortify the position with spines for protection of the SH. However, if they in fact are as shitty as they looked in that video then I think they're out of a job. The viper looks like it does what the SH can do and more so far. It flies, it's probably faster, only requires a lair, and it has better abilities to combat a defensive player. I could use blinding cloud to mitigate damage if I decide to bust your line, and then there's abduct which looks like it's going to make sniping tanks/collosi very easy. Why do I need the SH at that point? I'd really like to hear what JP, Artosis, and Day9 have to say about it on SOTG considering they actually got to play with them. | ||
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Norp
United States55 Posts
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Jayjay54
Germany2296 Posts
dunno. I am disappointed. | ||
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Hikari
1914 Posts
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zylog
Canada943 Posts
However, having seen the video, I agree with the OP that there isn't a great use for the unit that is evident. In terms of breaking tank lines, usually you'll wait and wait, then send everything at the tank line at once from as wide of an area as possible. Sure, you can use the swarm units to eat the first round of splash damage, but then what? By the time the next wave comes the battle will be long over. Also using an infestor to throw just a few infested terrans ahead of the army does the same. Remember that coccoons can absorb a few tank shots before they die. For defense, 8 or more marines with medivacs to heal have really high dps. Would a few slow disposable melee units really help against that? In the late game, sure it's great to have free units. However, what do you do against a bunch of planetary fortresses? I think when the opponent's army's dps get high enough, these swarm units just won't be able to close in to do any damage. I think the problem stems from the fact that the unit is intended to have a long range and slow release frequency. Trickling in units is not really a great tactic, especially when there is no guaranteed damage unlike the broodlord. I would personally prefer the opposite: a shorter range unit with a fast release frequency, something that can be used to hold positions defensively, or something that can really do a lot of damage if you can burrow next to your opponent in the midst of the battle. | ||
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Amestir
Netherlands2126 Posts
Really it's almost the same thing, and I would prefer a "new" unit mechanic over a mechanic of an all excisting units (A unit firing smaller time based units). | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
I don't get how this makes zerg any safer to the marine/tank play that everyone uses. A group of 16 marines and 2 medivacs would laugh at swarm hosts defending an expansion or some area of the map. The would kill the locusts before they every got to the marines and then they wont fire again for 18 seconds? What the fuck? How are these worth it? | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
On October 25 2011 01:39 ch4ppi wrote: Very good point! The same thing applies to Infestor, which can potentionally stop the Marine/tank push, but the timing for them to come out is so narrow that u have to rush to them and miss army Didn't the lurker upgrade require lair tech though? This is comparing apples and oranges, but both are T2.5 units. And I doubt you would want to rush to them to defend a 3 tank push. They're for a little later in the game once your economy has stabilized and you need to lock down positions defensively or aggressively | ||
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Emporio
United States3069 Posts
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
Cooldown on spawning units duration of units spawned If these are both buffed the unit will become devestating, so if we all find it useless, lean on blizz to change these numbers. Either that or add the hunter-ling jump (from hots single player) to the locusts, perhaps as an upgrade. On that train of thought, there can easily be a hive tech upgrade to allow them to jump cliffs, or maybe spawn more often/longer durations. The unit is a good enough concept idea that there are enough ways for them to buff it to make it possible to use in the situations they want without being overpowered that I am confident it will become a core support unit. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On October 25 2011 02:26 Amestir wrote: Not to start this again, but the Swarm Host really made me wonder why they didn't just implemend the Lurker. Really it's almost the same thing, and I would prefer a "new" unit mechanic over a mechanic of an all excisting units (A unit firing smaller time based units). How is it the same thing? The lurker is for controlling space, the swarm host is a siege unit. The only thing they have in common is that both work when burrowed. | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
I really don't know why Blizzard keeps dancing around the lurker issue so much. They know fans want it, and they always say that they're willing to put it in if they need to, yet they decide to sidestep the issue and put a pseudo-lurker in the game. The SH isn't very zergy in my opinion. There's more to zerg than just numbers, rather it's the very agile and aggressive way they attack that adds to the zerg feel. The SH is just a slow, leap-frog unit like the siege tank, which isn't zergy at all. The lurker actually captured the feel because not only was it a space-controlling siege unit, it was also very FAST. Lurkers charged into the frontlines with the zerglings, really making it feel like the opponent was being overwhelmed. And the fact that they had great positional play and micro potential added to the appeal. The fact that the SH uses units instead of projectiles is a major weakness since it means that anyone with a brain is just gonna micro the locusts to death. Stutter-micro marines and blink stalkers will ensure that locusts never do any real damage in a pro-level fight, and SHs seem like they are intended to be the slow siege unit, and that slow speed really harms them too. But really, I'd rather Blizzard just put the lurker back in. This is a sequel, sequels should be BETTER than their predecessors, not worse. If all Blizzard is gonna do is add watered-down versions of their old units, then just put the old units back in. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On October 25 2011 02:17 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Well, to start I don't feel like the majority of the demos really showcased the full capabilities of the majority of these new units. For example, the anti-air ability of the warhound wasn't even shown. I mean, this thing is supposed to fill the role of the thor now against mutas...sounds like something important you'd want to show the audience. The swarm host is another example. Can the SH only spawn units when the enemy is nearby? What's the duration of the locusts? How durable is the SH itself? Why were the SH all alone? Seems like a unit that needs to be guarded to be effective. Infestors would go great with them to fungal anything that tries to move forward and take them out, this should have been illustrated in the demo. Now, what I did manage to see was that: - Locusts are somewhat durable. - Locusts have very good dps. Although this is kind of hard to distinguish as some of the damage done was due to the friendly-fire of the tanks in the demo (another fail in showcasing the unit) - The respawn on the locusts looks like it takes too long - The locusts aren't fast enough, they need to be able to close the distance faster. Now, if I can spawn the locusts without an enemy being nearby and if the movement speed gets a decent buff, these could potentially be good. The demo makes it seem like the optimal range in which they can be used is at least in your opponent's sight. If I can go further out though and the locusts are fast enough to get in and do even a little damage before getting blown to pieces, or having their duration expire then that's something to consider. Essentially, I would have a unit with greater range than any siege unit because the source of the locusts are safely far away, and not in a position that is immediately known. Not only that, but if they can still attack from far away this could give the zerg a chance to fortify the position with spines for protection of the SH. However, if they in fact are as shitty as they looked in that video then I think they're out of a job. The viper looks like it does what the SH can do and more so far. It flies, it's probably faster, only requires a lair, and it has better abilities to combat a defensive player. I could use blinding cloud to mitigate damage if I decide to bust your line, and then there's abduct which looks like it's going to make sniping tanks/collosi very easy. Why do I need the SH at that point? I'd really like to hear what JP, Artosis, and Day9 have to say about it on SOTG considering they actually got to play with them. SH act like catapults in WC2, allowing you to continuously "fire" at a specific area when rallied, keep in mind you can do multi-rally points, You could technically spell your name out with them on the rally points. You could make them rally around in a circle, act as free cover for hydras. move with locusts ≥ burrow when they die ≥ rinse and repeat until you reach firing range and go to town. Another MAJOR use is for turtling, with enough SH, you could turtle the shit out of the opponent, since 5 SH could effectively generate units over 2000+ total hp, I can assure you given their present stats, At least 9 siege tanks must be out before they can 1-shot the incoming locusts. Mass marauders can forget about even clearing the ramp since 90/20 is 5 shots to kill one locust, 25 barrelling down the slope means 25x5 marauders to one shot them as they inch up the ramp.. except you'll have enough infestors to FG them til the marauders die.. Edit: The next person who says Zerg are the mobile economy race I will flip my table, seriously, SC:BW Zerg never was that! That is purely a SC2 perception due to the creep and queen mechanic! You can't say I like BW but I don't like SH. They are mutually inclusive. The suffix to Zerg is S.W.A.R.M. learn it, please. SH is most zergy thing since mass 3/3 adrenal ling rush. | ||
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OneBk
Sweden157 Posts
On October 25 2011 00:10 Alpina wrote: Yep you can't avoid hit from broodlord, siege tank, collosus, but you can avoid and kill this locust. Imagine 8 marines vs. lurker = lurker does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. tank = tank does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. broodlord = BL does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. swarm host = swarm host does no damage at all because his attack is killed before it hits. But again we don't know cost of this unit. If it's something like 100/50 then it can be massable and quite deadly. what i have heard it costs about 200/100, so not that massable.so it costs like 2 hydras. But as alot have said idont really see this unit worke like a seige unit. i mean if a army have enough dps then the Swarm hosts will be totally overrun. sure you could use the locoust to lead a attack and then follow up with the rest of the army, but why not just have more units then? my theory without having played the game or anything, i think you need to totally overrun the opponent with these guys like muta ling compositions, to sink all gas you have to these guys to make them work so you can actualy gring down some one with these units. hopefully they will be more powerful or cheaper so they can be used. | ||
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
to me, the Swarm Host is just the ground version of the Brood Lord except it summons new beefier units at a much slower pace I honestly don't think the Swarm Host will be worth using unless the units it spawns have a lengthy duration (let's say 1 minute) before expiration | ||
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obbob
Canada72 Posts
If i remembe,r it's 2 locusts every 15 seconds. Battles usually last around that time. So if you have an open engagement... Swarmhost: lol death ball incoming here's 2 zerglings to help  | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On October 25 2011 02:44 obbob wrote: This unit seems rather useless in an actually fight. If i remembe,r it's 2 locusts every 15 seconds. Battles usually last around that time. So if you have an open engagement... Swarmhost: lol death ball incoming here's 2 zerglings to help Please watch the video before commenting. You can like pause the linked New units presentation youtube video, and you know, Youtube has this really cool feature called pause... and like you can actually count the locusts? Amazing, I know! | ||
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IveReturned
Turkey258 Posts
Possibilities + Show Spoiler + Maybe, you could drop a nydus, then drop some swarm hosts, make a few locusts and move away.There is of course a better option than that, this is just an idea. Or, this coud help to tank the hydras? this could be used for several OV drops to kill tech?(16 dmg is insane, tempest does 35) Use as bait? Use to block the ramp , or defend the expo? Clean the aftermath of the big clash? | ||
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