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On October 25 2011 02:48 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 02:44 obbob wrote:This unit seems rather useless in an actually fight. If i remembe,r it's 2 locusts every 15 seconds. Battles usually last around that time. So if you have an open engagement... Swarmhost: lol death ball incoming here's 2 zerglings to help  Please watch the video before commenting. You can like pause the linked New units presentation youtube video, and you know, Youtube has this really cool feature called pause... and like you can actually count the locusts? Amazing, I know!
What are you talking about? He is right. If SH spawns 2 units every 16 seconds when battle usually lasts like no more than 10 secdons then you probably better bought 3(?) roaches for that price.
On October 25 2011 02:55 DMII wrote:
With the ability to grant detection you can even snipe observers pretty easily. Without detection Swarm hosts go completely uncontested.
Uncontested? Man with their current speed and dps they won't kill opponent in 15 minutes..
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maybe it should be modelled to weaver's locust swarm in dota. the locust attaches itself to a unit and it takes a specific number of attacks (regardless of damage value) to destroy it
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On October 25 2011 02:49 IveReturned wrote:Swarm host can be micro'd, like spawning locusts and moving away. Don't look at the video only. look at the possibilities. Possibilities + Show Spoiler +
Maybe, you could drop a nydus, then drop some swarm hosts, make a few locusts and move away.There is of course a better option than that, this is just an idea.
Or, this coud help to tank the hydras?
this could be used for several OV drops to kill tech?(16 dmg is insane, tempest does 35)
Use as bait?
Use to block the ramp , or defend the expo?
Clean the aftermath of the big clash?
The biggest use I see this is as fodder generator for Hydras pre-Hive as they advance.
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I think most people fail to see the amazing synergy of the two new zerg units.
Blinding Cloud will almost guarantee your locusts to reach the enemy without getting cleaned up beforehand and the dragging ability allows you to snipe detectors. With the ability to grant detection you can even snipe observers pretty easily. Without detection Swarm hosts go completely uncontested.
Also, if you repeatedly send locusts into a cetain area, they can serve as space control, since your opponent will dislike taking damage from free units and likely choose a different path to attack you.
You will need a few, but you should be able to control different areas of a map like this.
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this is blizzards pride getting in the way of putting the lurker back into the game. can't directly admit they were wrong so they try something somewhat similar.
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On October 25 2011 02:55 DMII wrote:
I think most people fail to see the amazing synergy of the two new zerg units.
Blinding Cloud will almost guarantee your locusts to reach the enemy without getting cleaned up beforehand and the dragging ability allows you to snipe detectors. With the ability to grant detection you can even snipe observers pretty easily. Without detection Swarm hosts go completely uncontested.
Also, if you repeatedly send locusts into a cetain area, they can serve as space control, since your opponent will dislike taking damage from free units and likely choose a different path to attack you.
You will need a few, but you should be able to control different areas of a map like this.
Great idea! The locusts will reach the enemies with the blinding cloud. Since it is mainly used for siege, small chokes and tight areas will be ruled by these.
Maybe add some hydras, and increase the damage output insanely.
I am a hydra lover and I wanna see them used more. :D:D
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On October 25 2011 02:58 Arcanne wrote:
this is blizzards pride getting in the way of putting the lurker back into the game. can't directly admit they were wrong so they try something somewhat similar.
And tbh this is a terrible implementation at the moment. Perhaps if it spammed out many weak units, aka. Zerglings streaming in, I'd like it. Those Locusts are rubbish.
On October 25 2011 03:00 IveReturned wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 02:55 DMII wrote:
I think most people fail to see the amazing synergy of the two new zerg units.
Blinding Cloud will almost guarantee your locusts to reach the enemy without getting cleaned up beforehand and the dragging ability allows you to snipe detectors. With the ability to grant detection you can even snipe observers pretty easily. Without detection Swarm hosts go completely uncontested.
Also, if you repeatedly send locusts into a cetain area, they can serve as space control, since your opponent will dislike taking damage from free units and likely choose a different path to attack you.
You will need a few, but you should be able to control different areas of a map like this. Great idea! The locusts will reach the enemies with the blinding cloud. Since it is mainly used for siege, small chokes and tight areas will be ruled by these. Maybe add some hydras, and increase the damage output insanely. I am a hydra lover and I wanna see them used more. :D:D
Blinding cloud has to be cast on the enemy units. Why not just use them and lings?
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On October 25 2011 03:02 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
And tbh this is a terrible implementation at the moment. Perhaps if it spammed out many weak units, aka. Zerglings streaming in, I'd like it. Those Locusts are rubbish.
Why use hatcheries and larvas to spawn mass zerglings anyway?
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IMO, you can send locusts into a siege line, as he's scanning and sending marines in to clear tumors. tank splash may take out those marines.
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On October 25 2011 03:02 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Blinding cloud has to be cast on the enemy units. Why not just use them and lings?
because its an attack that only costs energy and time (basically the same resource). No mins / gas / larva spent.
EDIT: however, I think the idea of a slow moving melee unit is a little dumb. Given that it only costs supply (because swarm lords count towards your supply cap and do nothing else), the locusts should have a limited siege capability. However, if they are to actually "hold ground" as intended, the locusts need a substantial speed bonus on creep.
As the game is now, whenever zerg loses an engagement, the enemy simply walks forward with obs / scans and zerg loses all their creep tumors.
Swarm lords should have a limited offensive capability, as shown in the video, but they should also be able to defend zerg territory. By giving the locust a movement speed bonus on creep, they are more useful defensively than offensively, which in my opinion is exactly how a ~free unit should function.
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On October 25 2011 02:58 Arcanne wrote:
this is blizzards pride getting in the way of putting the lurker back into the game. can't directly admit they were wrong so they try something somewhat similar.
You don't understand how wrong you are here.
Lurkers while a fun concept DO NOT WORK in SC2. The amount things clump up, combined with the other new units that each race has makes lurkers either instant-win or next to useless. They went through that gambit in alpha, and ended up getting scrapped.
Lurkers are one of my favorite units from BW, and I'm as sad to see them go as anyone else, but it doesn't take a genius to see that with the current state of units currently in the game, a lurker has an extemely tiny balance window, where anywhere outside that it's broken one way or the other. Having unit concepts with small balance windows means adding or changing anything no matter how minor can make them suddenly dominate or not get used.
The swarm host to compare, has a MASSIVE balance window. The reasoning here is that it has a lot of things about it that can be tweaked without findamentally changing the unit, allowing blizzard to balance the game how they want, and then tweak the swarm host so it fits with everything else.
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it seems like these guys will be good for timing attack and sustained aggression. do a roach ling timing and burrow a few of them nearby for reinforcements. could see them being useful but not game breaking or anything like the viper
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I think the Swarm Host is a fantastic idea for a new unit. There are a ton of uses that I can see...
-Late game low econ scenarios (when units lost really matters)
-Late game "swarm build" compliment to broodlord (but not vulnerable to vikings)
-Abusing the lack of cloak (burrowing a few next to an expansion mineral line, spread out so one scan can't spot them all, forcing defending siege tanks to unsiege or risk friendly firing own scvs)
-general harassment (dropping and burrowing a few in protoss or terran main if they are light on detect, much like burrow roach harass is done)
-Light contain/siege (as Dustin said... forcing the enemy to come out and engage your army, unless they want to constantly be attacked by locusts)
16 damage with < 1s firing rate is really high DPS, more than a hydra, so if those locusts go unchecked they are going to tear buildings apart quite easily. Most of all this unit is going to be very annoying to the enemy. Simply hearing the "we are under attack" message and having the mini-map flashing constantly is going to be an advantage in itself.
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SH drops into Nydus could be the next big thing on HotS ladder.
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On October 25 2011 00:10 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 00:00 Comprissent wrote:
I think most of the redundancy is that these locusts aren't projectiles...
Sieging an enemy is useless if they can shoot down these siege 'projectiles'. All it does is add a few more units to an attack, where you lose the food from these hosts in an attack. In order to actually give some map presence, these attacks need to be projectiles that can't be shot down (like tanks/broodlords) Yep you can't avoid hit from broodlord, siege tank, collosus, but you can avoid and kill this locust. Imagine 8 marines vs. lurker = lurker does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. tank = tank does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. broodlord = BL does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. swarm host = swarm host does no damage at all because his attack is killed before it hits. But again we don't know cost of this unit. If it's something like 100/50 then it can be massable and quite deadly.
In the video they survived several tank shots and also fire from bunkers. I think they're pretty beefy and on creep should be a lot faster.
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How much time do the locusts stay anyway?
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On October 25 2011 03:13 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 02:58 Arcanne wrote:
this is blizzards pride getting in the way of putting the lurker back into the game. can't directly admit they were wrong so they try something somewhat similar. You don't understand how wrong you are here. Lurkers while a fun concept DO NOT WORK in SC2. The amount things clump up, combined with the other new units that each race has makes lurkers either instant-win or next to useless. They went through that gambit in alpha, and ended up getting scrapped.
They could definitely make lurkers work... They are too good because things clump up? What about siege tanks? Would they be too good if they costed 500/500? You can always tweak cost/damage to make something balanced. I don't even play zerg but I want to see lurkers. They make for far more interesting games both as a player and spectator. The swarm host looks incredibly boring.
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I don't see any situation where this unit would ever be effective. Sure it can be used to "bump into" a siege from a camping terran/protoss but it in itself isn't going to do much. And with it only spitting out two units at a time with a pretty large amount of time between them then i'd rather just save the larva and supply and make an actual attack unit to add to my army instead of throwing these units at their wall to die and do barely any damage. The video they show only looks impressive because the bunch of tanks are doing splash to the bunkers.
Also, Using them as defense for say a 3rd or fourth wouldn't be too effective either because it would require quite a few of them to thwart a full medivac drop or something like that. and if you're making 5-10 swarm host just to defend one base then you're wasting supply. You're better off spending the supply on speedlings so they can both run to your base to defend it then go back to joining your army.
I don't know, I just don't see any situation where this unit is worth making.
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The idea that blizzard was trying to sell us on is this: Siege Breaker.
Currently the way zerg works, no zerg player in their right mind would attempt to break a fortified terran or protoss position (without broods/fungal). The idea behind these units is the ability to apply pressure to a entrenched position to then launch your army from without taking massive losses due to splash and etc. The swarm host can also act tactically very similar to how the lurker operated in bw. Allow for containment, easier to defend chokes, easier to attack chokes, holding key positions cost efficiently.
These units will allow zerg to put the pressure back on our opponents when we decide that we want to.
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On October 25 2011 03:28 DEN1ED wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 03:13 Shiladie wrote:On October 25 2011 02:58 Arcanne wrote:
this is blizzards pride getting in the way of putting the lurker back into the game. can't directly admit they were wrong so they try something somewhat similar. You don't understand how wrong you are here. Lurkers while a fun concept DO NOT WORK in SC2. The amount things clump up, combined with the other new units that each race has makes lurkers either instant-win or next to useless. They went through that gambit in alpha, and ended up getting scrapped. They could definitely make lurkers work... They are too good because things clump up? What about siege tanks? Would they be too good if they costed 500/500? You can always tweak cost/damage to make something balanced. I don't even play zerg but I want to see lurkers. They make for far more interesting games both as a player and spectator. The swarm host looks incredibly boring.
I am pretty sure that the SH will be used so often, it will make battles more interesting and harrasses more demolishing.
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EPT
