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On October 26 2011 12:25 TheDraken wrote:
why can't the locusts:
have less health
spawn faster
and hop like grasshoppers?
i would think it would make them more effective (less tank fire) but marines can still clean them up. plus, (and this is a big plus) they could be used with the main zerg army since they won't be competing for surface area like broodlings do.
hopping locusts would feel pretty zerg to me.
you mean similar to the raptor? That would actually be pretty cool. The movement would be quite unique and micro intensive. If they make them look good while jumping it would be kick ass! I like the way the locusts are now (well, who knows that really) but this sounds like a cool idea!
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meh, they'll fix the swarm host. it's not that hard. the premise is good. the current numbers just make it too weak compared to what is in the game already. we're also not really seeing the fully experimented version of it, as in, combined with other units or properly microed.
for example, i ask myself why the hell the swarm hosts stay burrowed if they can regen above ground and they are out of range of tanks anyway? just run the fuck away after you shoot swarm hosts. i can only imagine them needing to stay burrowed for ambushes like hold lurkers.
i wonder, what happens when you have 1 infestor + swarm hosts (same building structure) and you throw out infested terran eggs behind a tank line to draw fire and then have the swarm hosts burrow offensively lurker style to kill everything with mass locusts.
so basically, none of the demo really drives some kind of opinion into me. i'm constantly blown away by how much thought and how deep an opinion people have with what they saw at blizzcon. it really matters so little, and it's such a pessimistic state of mind from most people. then again, i'm surprised that i actually didn't see this coming.
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I think I'd prefer a hive tech upgrade that ramps up the deploy rate over time while burrowed, kind of like void ray's charge. This means you would arrange them in place around an enemy base, defend them while they're charging up, eventually being able to produce a more pressing locus clutch with time. Maybe enough to require a turtle to come out. Also, leaving them burrowed at home means that they're ready to defend at full power.
Question, could you turn them off in the demo? Was it possible to have them waiting in hiding to start swarming when targets are near? I'm concerned about using them for defense, as it looks like you need to set a rally point and they just a-move there. Does that mean that to have some defending a hatch, you need to anticipate where a drop would land and just preemptively spawn stuff in that direction? Couldn't the drop just move ot another side of the base?
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my question is why swarm hosts and not lurkers, is it just to have something different from BW or they really think swarm host is a better idea?
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On October 31 2011 03:05 vojnik wrote:
my question is why swarm hosts and not lurkers, is it just to have something different from BW or they really think swarm host is a better idea?
I think it's an attempt to bring back something similar to the lurker in design and role, without adding to the aoe potential of the zerg, with both banelings and fungals--which is a concern they had with bringing the lurker back in the alpha.
Maybe also addressing the critique of modern zerg armies not being "swarmy" enough.
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On October 31 2011 03:05 vojnik wrote:
my question is why swarm hosts and not lurkers, is it just to have something different from BW or they really think swarm host is a better idea?
Yes. It is one thing to play "Where's lurker" and "When can I snipe those SH safely?"
Slings can surround a unit ball very quickly which means 8 marauders w/ medivacs could stim up and focus down the SH, but at the risk of having their exit cut off by 32 0/1 speedlings
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To be honest the lurker is a REALLY powerfull unit with the clumping tendencies of SC2.
I think many people are really not getting the idea behind the Swarm host, it's not supposed to be a lurker for board control. Instead I see it as a siege unit to annoy (and force to some extent) a turtling Terran or protoss to do something.
One of the most common complaints i see about Zerg is that they cannot break a turtle and a Terran can defend 2 bases without any problems no matter what the Zerg builds and in the current game i agree to some extent (with the exception of broodlords they can and will break a turtle if you get them).
Now think of this scenario, a Terran is turtling in standard style with tanks, marines etc. behind a wall. IF you put 5 swarm hosts down in front of the wall (outside of siege range) you might not break the wall immediatly, but you will attack it constantly. Depending on their damage they might break it or they might force the Terran to invest APM to repair it and defend it.
What they really cannot do, is charge down a smallish ramp into infestors/swarmhosts, that's a recipe for disaster just waiting to happen.
To be honest i am not sure if the unit will be able to fullfill the role i am theorycrafting here. Maybe 2 scvs on autorepair will be enough to keep a wall stable and secure for years. If so the unit definitly needs some changes, but a disposable unit to annoy and poke at a turtle out of safe range? that sounds exactly like what Zerg is currently missing on lair tech, mutas are nice but they are a heavy investment if you want decent numbers and they really don't do well in stand up fights.
Broodlords? They might fullfill a similar role in the endgame, but they are VERY expensive, and esp. against Terrans they can end up going horribly wrong.
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On October 31 2011 03:17 Tula wrote:
To be honest the lurker is a REALLY powerfull unit with the clumping tendencies of SC2.
I think many people are really not getting the idea behind the Swarm host, it's not supposed to be a lurker for board control. Instead I see it as a siege unit to annoy (and force to some extent) a turtling Terran or protoss to do something.
One of the most common complaints i see about Zerg is that they cannot break a turtle and a Terran can defend 2 bases without any problems no matter what the Zerg builds and in the current game i agree to some extent (with the exception of broodlords they can and will break a turtle if you get them).
Now think of this scenario, a Terran is turtling in standard style with tanks, marines etc. behind a wall. IF you put 5 swarm hosts down in front of the wall (outside of siege range) you might not break the wall immediatly, but you will attack it constantly. Depending on their damage they might break it or they might force the Terran to invest APM to repair it and defend it.
What they really cannot do, is charge down a smallish ramp into infestors/swarmhosts, that's a recipe for disaster just waiting to happen.
To be honest i am not sure if the unit will be able to fullfill the role i am theorycrafting here. Maybe 2 scvs on autorepair will be enough to keep a wall stable and secure for years. If so the unit definitly needs some changes, but a disposable unit to annoy and poke at a turtle out of safe range? that sounds exactly like what Zerg is currently missing on lair tech, mutas are nice but they are a heavy investment if you want decent numbers and they really don't do well in stand up fights.
Broodlords? They might fullfill a similar role in the endgame, but they are VERY expensive, and esp. against Terrans they can end up going horribly wrong.
do you know the range of these things, from what i head in the video is you rally the locusts to the enemy, but can you say rally from half of the map if u have vision on the terran's front?
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On October 31 2011 03:08 Paper117 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 03:05 vojnik wrote:
my question is why swarm hosts and not lurkers, is it just to have something different from BW or they really think swarm host is a better idea? I think it's an attempt to bring back something similar to the lurker in design and role, without adding to the aoe potential of the zerg, with both banelings and fungals--which is a concern they had with bringing the lurker back in the alpha. Maybe also addressing the critique of modern zerg armies not being "swarmy" enough.
Why don't they just make it like a lurker that shoots a sunken colony tentacle instead of rising spikes? Aoe problem solved, we don't get something that can't siege against tanks
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On October 31 2011 03:29 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 03:08 Paper117 wrote:On October 31 2011 03:05 vojnik wrote:
my question is why swarm hosts and not lurkers, is it just to have something different from BW or they really think swarm host is a better idea? I think it's an attempt to bring back something similar to the lurker in design and role, without adding to the aoe potential of the zerg, with both banelings and fungals--which is a concern they had with bringing the lurker back in the alpha. Maybe also addressing the critique of modern zerg armies not being "swarmy" enough. Why don't they just make it like a lurker that shoots a sunken colony tentacle instead of rising spikes? Aoe problem solved, we don't get something that can't siege against tanks
Idk. At that point, I think you might as well just be trying to proxy long-range spine crawlers. Also, it would then kinda just be a limp dick zerg siege tank without splash.
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On October 31 2011 03:17 Tula wrote:
To be honest the lurker is a REALLY powerfull unit with the clumping tendencies of SC2.
I think many people are really not getting the idea behind the Swarm host, it's not supposed to be a lurker for board control. Instead I see it as a siege unit to annoy (and force to some extent) a turtling Terran or protoss to do something.
One of the most common complaints i see about Zerg is that they cannot break a turtle and a Terran can defend 2 bases without any problems no matter what the Zerg builds and in the current game i agree to some extent (with the exception of broodlords they can and will break a turtle if you get them).
.
But why should zerg be able to break a turtling terran? Terran is supposed to be the best defensive race. If the terran players wants to completely turtle on 2 bases, the zerg player should just respond by taking many expansions. They shouldn't just be given a unit to counter it. Unfortunately bliz has applied this logic with all the new units. Mass muta is a problem? Ok lets make tempests. It's just not good game design.
Also, the lurker would be fine. It would just make it so players can't a-move their army across the map and just forget about it. You would maybe even make a raven and actually have to pay attention to your army. It would be good for the game imo. And to people saying the splash would be too powerful, they made tanks work. I don't see why they couldn't make lurkers work as well.
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On October 31 2011 03:45 DEN1ED wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 03:17 Tula wrote:
To be honest the lurker is a REALLY powerfull unit with the clumping tendencies of SC2.
I think many people are really not getting the idea behind the Swarm host, it's not supposed to be a lurker for board control. Instead I see it as a siege unit to annoy (and force to some extent) a turtling Terran or protoss to do something.
One of the most common complaints i see about Zerg is that they cannot break a turtle and a Terran can defend 2 bases without any problems no matter what the Zerg builds and in the current game i agree to some extent (with the exception of broodlords they can and will break a turtle if you get them).
. But why should zerg be able to break a turtling terran? Terran is supposed to be the best defensive race. If the terran players wants to completely turtle on 2 bases, the zerg player should just respond by taking many expansions. They shouldn't just be given a unit to counter it. Unfortunately bliz has applied this logic with all the new units. Mass muta is a problem? Ok lets make tempests. It's just not good game design. Also, the lurker would be fine. It would just make it so players can't a-move their army across the map and just forget about it. You would maybe even make a raven and actually have to pay attention to your army. It would be good for the game imo.
the problem is, and this is also blizzard's viewpoint, is that it's too difficult for a zerg that's way ahead of his opponent to just go in and kill him. usually zergs have to expand and tech up in order to kill them, and it just wastes time for everybody. happens to me all the time on ladder. i crush their 2 base push, then saturate my third, get a hive and 4 BLs. Otherwise i can try dropping their main or something, but it can be too risky.
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I'm sorry if I missed this somewhere in the thread, but for the life of me I can't find out whether or not the Swarm Host is cloaked while burrowed. Does anyone know for a fact if it is/isn't? I thought with the introduction of the Swarm Host that they would remove the Broodlord or change it in someway. Having 6-8 Swarm Hosts and a few Broodlords floating overhead along with your main army nearby seems quite ridiculous, but who knows. Like previous posts have said, it'll be changed for sure.
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So it's just a time-saving unit? Once again, that's just terrible design. How long it takes to win shouldn't be a factor.
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On October 26 2011 18:45 gh0un wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 12:42 iky43210 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line. there are 6 tanks, and it was able to kill bunkers despite being shell by tank fire and marines firing It wouldn't make any sense for the swarm host to overcome and completely break the tank line in a wave As you said, they shouldnt be able to overcome and break defensive lines, that would be way too OP from infinite range, but apparently blizzard decided that that should be their role otherwise i dont understand why they would show us that scenario in the demonstration video. A unit that is either OP or UP, that is bad game design right there. Whats wrong with the lurker? There are no either OP or UP shenanigans. Lurkers can hold a position, their role is obvious and they can be good at their role without it being OP like in the swarm hosts roles case.
IMO, Blizzard does not want to reintroduce the lurker because they feel that it overlaps with the role of the baneling, which is a direct damage dealer with a high damage output. Argue all you want about differences and similarities, but that is the only reason that I could come up with as to why they don't just reintroduce the lurker (lurkers would just make banelings redundant).
As for overcoming defensive lines, yes, the swarn host SHOULD be able to do so. Swarm hosts do not have more range than a tank, you seem to forget that locusts only last 15 seconds. The unit does NOT have infinite range (that would be silly) and is limited by spawn time.
As for the viability, I feel like Blizzard should experiment with giving the SH 3 locusts instead of two. Locusts are strong, and once you begin to add in melee upgrades they should be able to sync up with a melee force and be even stronger. Reduce the spawn time down by two or three seconds, add in a third locust, and perhaps even a fourth as an upgrade later on and the unit feels fairly strong (probably going to have to compensate somewhere along the line with other stats).
BTW, does anyone know where the SH is built from? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess the hydra (-_-), as they have the same basic art structure (SH much more cooler looking IMO, the hydra's head makes it look like a fucking dufus, while the SH has a fantastic body structure design), but Blizzard is not opposed to doing weird shit and the SH does come from infestation tech.
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The difference between swarm hosts and lurkers was that it was often difficult and in-efficient to attack lurkers with zealots / marine medic bio ball (unless you had great micro or the lurkers were unsupported). In this case, what's stopping the player from moving out and getting rid of the swarm hosts? The difference in power is huge, but I can understand how Swarm Hosts could lock part of the map down by forcing constant attacks.
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@[5th]Sybaris the Swarm Host is built from larvae as far as I know
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On October 31 2011 03:56 [5th]Sybaris wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 18:45 gh0un wrote:On October 26 2011 12:42 iky43210 wrote:On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line. there are 6 tanks, and it was able to kill bunkers despite being shell by tank fire and marines firing It wouldn't make any sense for the swarm host to overcome and completely break the tank line in a wave As you said, they shouldnt be able to overcome and break defensive lines, that would be way too OP from infinite range, but apparently blizzard decided that that should be their role otherwise i dont understand why they would show us that scenario in the demonstration video. A unit that is either OP or UP, that is bad game design right there. Whats wrong with the lurker? There are no either OP or UP shenanigans. Lurkers can hold a position, their role is obvious and they can be good at their role without it being OP like in the swarm hosts roles case. IMO, Blizzard does not want to reintroduce the lurker because they feel that it overlaps with the role of the baneling, which is a direct damage dealer with a high damage output. Argue all you want about differences and similarities, but that is the only reason that I could come up with as to why they don't just reintroduce the lurker (lurkers would just make banelings redundant). As for overcoming defensive lines, yes, the swarn host SHOULD be able to do so. Swarm hosts do not have more range than a tank, you seem to forget that locusts only last 15 seconds. The unit does NOT have infinite range (that would be silly) and is limited by spawn time. As for the viability, I feel like Blizzard should experiment with giving the SH 3 locusts instead of two. Locusts are strong, and once you begin to add in melee upgrades they should be able to sync up with a melee force and be even stronger. Reduce the spawn time down by two or three seconds, add in a third locust, and perhaps even a fourth as an upgrade later on and the unit feels fairly strong (probably going to have to compensate somewhere along the line with other stats). BTW, does anyone know where the SH is built from? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess the hydra (-_-), as they have the same basic art structure (SH much more cooler looking IMO, the hydra's head makes it look like a fucking dufus, while the SH has a fantastic body structure design), but Blizzard is not opposed to doing weird shit and the SH does come from infestation tech.
I think it's just spawned from larva.
What I'm curious is how the Swarm Host would interact with the Shredder. I wonder if it just comes down to a numbers game of getting a critical mass of locusts out to damage the shredder, which would otherwise destroy them all in smaller numbers.
Playing with the numbers for that might be a headache for the balance guys.
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On October 31 2011 03:53 Azhrei16 wrote:
I'm sorry if I missed this somewhere in the thread, but for the life of me I can't find out whether or not the Swarm Host is cloaked while burrowed. Does anyone know for a fact if it is/isn't? I thought with the introduction of the Swarm Host that they would remove the Broodlord or change it in someway. Having 6-8 Swarm Hosts and a few Broodlords floating overhead along with your main army nearby seems quite ridiculous, but who knows. Like previous posts have said, it'll be changed for sure.
I don't know for a fact, but since every single burrowed unit that have ever existed in any starcraft game has been invisible when burrowed (including ultralisk, which still has its entire head visible by model but invisible by game-mechanics) I assume the swarm host will be invisible when burrowed and due to the design am 99.999999% sure I'm right.
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But why should zerg be able to break a turtling terran? Terran is supposed to be the best defensive race. If the terran players wants to completely turtle on 2 bases, the zerg player should just respond by taking many expansions.
If you absolutely crush a massive Zerg/Toss push, you got 2 options. Extend your eco game (take a new expansion) or go in and kill him.
Zerg can only expand and wait till Boodlords are available. But the longer a games goes on and the longer T has time to "recover", the higher the chances that T can pull off some kind of comeback. (eg.: lucky drops, massive all in resulting in a basetrade,...)
So Blizzard says that Z should get a option to end the game without waiting for Broods, because expanding isnt always the smartest idea.
I had enough matches myself where i had 14k more than my opponent, but couldnt finish him off due to his extreme turteling.
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EPT
