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Manical
Sweden42 Posts
For example if you park your swarm hosts outside the natural on metalopolis you can set up a contain and safely take out his third/gold base. Also we still don't know if this unit will have any upgrades(like most zerg units), which could make a huge difference. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
And nothing stops Blizzard to give the swarmhost a t3 upgrade making the locusts stronger. (or general upgrades could have a strong effect on them.) As for the same role stuff. Same role, different approach, different conters = good. | ||
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Archie_Lewis
Czech Republic87 Posts
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Grenadieris
Latvia33 Posts
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Klystron
United States99 Posts
On October 31 2011 06:12 darkscream wrote: Well, I wasn't at blizzcon and I haven't used the unit, but at least I know that Locusts have way more HP and deal way more damage than broodlings as I did watch the live steam. Since broodlings aren't made irrelevant by things shooting them as they attack, why would Locusts be? Broodlings aren't made irrelevant by things shooting at them because they spawn on their targets. Locusts aren't particularly fast and will die before they can reach their targets if there is enough stuff shooting back at them. Think zealots with no charge. This is something that is very noticeable when they go up against things like shredders backed up by siege tanks. Or when they go up against a stalker/colossi death ball. I tested them against both of these things and was underwhelmed by the results. Until you get like 8-10 of these things out the locusts just die before they can do any damage. On October 31 2011 06:17 Big J wrote: No. Broodlords don't attack through Broodlings. Over 50% of their dps is in direct damage. Also Dusting Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm Host is somthing like "slow, methodical grind". That is not what broodlords do. They break an opponent. The very moment they are at his door he has to deal with them or die, unlike "eventually the terran has to come out and deal with them", what DB said about swarm hosts. Wrong, Broodlords do 8 dps with their ground attack, a single broodling does 6.2 dps. Broodlords can easily have 3 broodlings out at any given time. This means that 18.6 dps comes from the broodlings, and 8 dps comes from the broodlord attack. This means that ~ 30% of broodlord dps comes from the AtoG attack, not 50%. | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
On October 31 2011 06:48 Klystron wrote: Until you get like 8-10 of these things out the locusts just die before they can do any damage. how is that any different from brood lords at all? If you roll up with 2 brood lords they are equally ineffective. 2 swarm hosts on the other hand will likely be effective in the way that 2 siege tanks are, at that point in the midgame. Not to mention the defensive capabilities which brood lords don't really have. I mean, the exact numbers aren't relevant of course they will change. But the concept? I don't see how anyone could argue this unit isn't exactly what zerg needed (a siege unit before the 15 minute mark). I actually don't see why i'm replying to you though. You aren't very open minded. XD | ||
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Klystron
United States99 Posts
On October 31 2011 06:55 darkscream wrote: I mean, the exact numbers aren't relevant of course they will change. But the concept? I don't see how anyone could argue this unit isn't exactly what zerg needed (a siege unit before the 15 minute mark). I agree that zerg needs a siege unit before the 15 minute mark, I think it is great that Blizzard recognizes this problem and is trying to fix it. However, I don't agree with the way that Blizzard is implementing the fix. The Swarm Host is literally an earlier broodlord, which is great and all, but taking an existing unit, nerfing it, and putting it lower in the tech tree is the wrong way to go about it. The swarm host does not address a lot of other problems that zerg has. This thing can't attack anything up or down a cliff. It uses melee units, which means that it requires already precious melee range real-estate. And it still doesn't address the issue that zerg completely lacks a ranged splash unit. If the swarm host is exactly what zerg needs, then why not just nerf the broodlord and make it only require a spire? Are you really trying to tell me that you can make a better judgement call concerning the usefulness of a new unit after watching a 5 minute video? I was there, I played the freaking game, and I don't know all the possible uses for this thing or exactly how it can be used. The one thing that I can tell you is that from my experience, is that it is the same exact concept as a broodlord, but at a lower tech tier. | ||
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MrDudeMan
Canada973 Posts
On October 31 2011 06:48 Klystron wrote: Wrong, Broodlords do 8 dps with their ground attack, a single broodling does 6.2 dps. Broodlords can easily have 3 broodlings out at any given time. This means that 18.6 dps comes from the broodlings, and 8 dps comes from the broodlord attack. This means that ~ 30% of broodlord dps comes from the AtoG attack, not 50%. Thats a silly way to compare them. Particularly since broodlords themselves attack very slowly. Also you forgot to consider that in order to have those 3 broodlings, the broodlord would have had to attack 3 times. So going by your method of measuring damage, broodlords would do 24 dps. But your way of measuring is wrong to begin with, so the numbers do not matter. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On October 31 2011 04:02 Paper117 wrote: I think it's just spawned from larva. What I'm curious is how the Swarm Host would interact with the Shredder. I wonder if it just comes down to a numbers game of getting a critical mass of locusts out to damage the shredder, which would otherwise destroy them all in smaller numbers. Playing with the numbers for that might be a headache for the balance guys. It's spawned from larva? Hmm...that at least makes synergies a lot easier. I was having a headache theorycrafting (for fun ofc) unit comps involving the SH, but now ling/SH/viper should be easier than ever :D. Stack dual upgrades in and I think I've got a wonderful composition to look forward to when HOTS comes out. Now all that is left is to manage balance numbers so that the SH is a constant threat. I feel like the swarmhost needs to have a significantly smaller spawn time for the locusts, and have one more. It just won't pack enough oomph if the spawn time is too delayed. SHs should definitely be an all purpose unit, if only b/c it feels like zerg is missing a siege unit which allows zerg players to open up more drone timings, etc. The SH's function as of right now seems to be about right. Just hoping Blizzard adds a stop spawn function (=/= easymode!) Btw, really looking forward to ling/bling/viper. Muahahahaha. @Azhrei16: Thanks for the quick response as well, sir! | ||
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Azhrei16
United States284 Posts
I would love to see some application for the Swarm Host not in offense, but defense. Like for example, on Tal'Darim Altar when a Terran sieges tanks below the ramp and has marines spread around to combat mutalisks, burrowing some Swarm Host at the top of the ramp and sending waves of Locusts into the tanks/marines would be pretty neat, seeing as how sending a ball of zerglings/banelings isn't too effective most of the time. It's going to be exciting to see how the pro players spin the new units and use them in ways Blizzard never intended. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
On October 24 2011 23:50 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Imagine Swarm host/infestor/brood lord.... *shivers* slowest army ever? | ||
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Klystron
United States99 Posts
On October 31 2011 07:22 MrDudeMan wrote: Thats a silly way to compare them. Particularly since broodlords themselves attack very slowly. Also you forgot to consider that in order to have those 3 broodlings, the broodlord would have had to attack 3 times. So going by your method of measuring damage, broodlords would do 24 dps. But your way of measuring is wrong to begin with, so the numbers do not matter. Um you are confusing DPS with damage or you apparently don't know how DPS works. A broodlord that is consistently attacking will have about 3+ broodlings on the ground at any given time. While maintaining that broodling count the Broodlord does 8 dps from the raw AtoG attack. Not 8 damage per attack. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 31 2011 06:48 Klystron wrote: Wrong, Broodlords do 8 dps with their ground attack, a single broodling does 6.2 dps. Broodlords can easily have 3 broodlings out at any given time. This means that 18.6 dps comes from the broodlings, and 8 dps comes from the broodlord attack. This means that ~ 30% of broodlord dps comes from the AtoG attack, not 50%. Yeah, assuming that the broodlings don't die (which they do instantly if we are talking about insane dps units like marines or splash units like colossi/archons) and always have enough surface area (which is only true for small to medium broodlord numbers on open field without support zerglings) and do miss attacks when switching targets (due to their high attack speed). I checked the numbers before I wrote that 50% statement, but there is a difference between adding numbers and thinking about them... Don't get me wrong, Broodlings are a big factor in Broodlord play. But Broodlords don't work purely through minion production. Swarm Hosts do. | ||
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Klystron
United States99 Posts
On October 31 2011 08:14 Big J wrote: Yeah, assuming that the broodlings don't die (which they do instantly if we are talking about insane dps units like marines or splash units like colossi/archons) and always have enough surface area (which is only true for small to medium broodlord numbers on open field without support zerglings) and do miss attacks when switching targets (due to their high attack speed). I checked the numbers before I wrote that 50% statement, but there is a difference between adding numbers and thinking about them... Don't get me wrong, Broodlings are a big factor in Broodlord play. But Broodlords don't work purely through minion production. Swarm Hosts do. If you are arguing that the broodling DPS is not the major contribution to the DPS of the broodlord, then how is the Swarm Host going to do any better? Sure locusts are more durable than broodlings, but you also have to consider that they have to run to their target before they do any damage at all. You are still trying to say that just because the specifics of the unit are different that they are not redundant. Its like trying to argue that if you gave terran an equivilent to Hydras, that they wouldn't fill the same roles as the marine just because their stats are different. Broodlords and Swarm hosts are siege units. They fill this role in almost exactly the same way, by throwing free units at the enemy. Sure the specifics are a bit different, but the general principle is exactly the same. | ||
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Pwere
Canada1556 Posts
Also, I think the locusts should spawm burrowed, have burrow move, and unburrow when they attack. Otherwise they will just prevent you from retreating if you ever engage badly and they spawn after initiating. Broodlords are useful because the broodlings spawn on target, right in the middle of the deathball. | ||
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Zerksys
United States569 Posts
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Azhrei16
United States284 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 31 2011 08:22 Klystron wrote: If you are arguing that the broodling DPS is not the major contribution to the DPS of the broodlord, then how is the Swarm Host going to do any better? Sure locusts are more durable than broodlings, but you also have to consider that they have to run to their target before they do any damage at all. You are still trying to say that just because the specifics of the unit are different that they are not redundant. Its like trying to argue that if you gave terran an equivilent to Hydras, that they wouldn't fill the same roles as the marine just because their stats are different. Broodlords and Swarm hosts are siege units. They fill this role in almost exactly the same way, by throwing free units at the enemy. Sure the specifics are a bit different, but the general principle is exactly the same. Because the question is not how is the Swarm Host better than the Broodlord, but what can I do with each unit. + Show Spoiler + For example: Battlecruisers and banshees fill the same TvT mid-lategame role (to kill tanks). But they are both being played as long it is not purely air vs air (Then obviously the battlecruiser is better, but still worse than vikings and ravens) Swarm hosts when optimally burrowed, do have something like 15+range. So unlike broodlords that attack tanks, they can be defended by zerglings that don't take tankfire. They don't require aircontrol, so you can siege an opponent with air superiority! They can be set up as traps, if you deactivate them, the opponent runs over, and then gets sandwiched. They can be combined with gasunits without working a whole game towards that composition. They might allow earlier rushes, which might change MUs completly. When do Broodlords hit the map? 20mins. When do Infestors hit the map? 10mins. --> Swarm Hosts have 10full minutes to change zerg attack strategies completly. | ||
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Mitosis
United States24 Posts
As for waiting out a wave then scanning, stimming, and killing them, you're assuming that the Zerg has zero backup waiting for you to come out and try and kill the Swarmhosts (fungal, zergling surround, etc. depending on situation), and you're ignoring that you can burrow, release your locusts, and immediately unburrow and retreat. You're already gone by the time the opponent has dealt with the locusts, and can return to do it again as soon as they move back to their base. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On October 31 2011 08:45 Mitosis wrote: A lot of complaints are centering on Locusts dying before they reach their target, but throw one or two Blinding Clouds as the locust wave approaches and suddenly they survive in plenty of time to get some attacks in -- and they're pretty sturdy and strong units, so a few seconds' attacking will put a dent into what your opponent has. High priority targets can also be Abducted into the locust wave where they can take a pretty hefty hit at no cost to the Zerg. As for waiting out a wave then scanning, stimming, and killing them, you're assuming that the Zerg has zero backup waiting for you to come out and try and kill the Swarmhosts (fungal, zergling surround, etc. depending on situation), and you're ignoring that you can burrow, release your locusts, and immediately unburrow and retreat. You're already gone by the time the opponent has dealt with the locusts, and can return to do it again as soon as they move back to their base. That's a good point, these would be good coupled with Blinding Clouds... Although I would question whether it would be worth the energy if you aren't sending in anyother units. It would be situational. | ||
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