EPTI also think, at least in ZvT this unit will be even weaker. People have probably already mentioned this. But making a contain like this... So what if the Terran decides to place some shredders with tank support? I have to say, that contain suddenly isn't that effective.
[D] Swarm Host Redundant? - Page 27
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Maekchu
140 Posts
I also think, at least in ZvT this unit will be even weaker. People have probably already mentioned this. But making a contain like this... So what if the Terran decides to place some shredders with tank support? I have to say, that contain suddenly isn't that effective. | ||
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Haustka
United States221 Posts
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markz4
180 Posts
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On October 31 2011 08:51 Gfire wrote: That's a good point, these would be good coupled with Blinding Clouds... Although I would question whether it would be worth the energy if you aren't sending in anyother units. It would be situational. it's a really bad point. why should you use them with vipers? there is no sense in doing this from a zerg players point. you'll want lings under that cloud, not some units that needs a setup time and take gas that could have gone into mutas. muta and viper is also a better combo... | ||
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HughJorgen
Australia37 Posts
Lair tech is a pretty solid advantage. I can see Blizzard changing the cooldown or the number/strength of the locusts. (oh and renaming them from locusts since that doesn't make sense for things that walk). I think it's a great idea that will have a massive impact on how Zerg plays. Being able to apply pressure to a turtling opponent is THE thing that Z are missing atm (until BLs at least, but that's too late). Plus you can't counter these things with vikings or snipe. If they leave their base to kill the swarm host, well, mission accomplished. Remember we'll have burrow move banelings to shaft opponents who don't have detection so we have even less need for the lurker. The only thing I would like them to change is to move the tech to the hydra den. Zerg already have all the reasons in the world to build an infestation pit. Moving Swarm hosts to the Hydra den would provide a reason to build it. Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield. That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-). | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On October 31 2011 09:59 HughJorgen wrote: Isn't this a bit like saying the marine is redundant because of the thor? Lair tech is a pretty solid advantage. I can see Blizzard changing the cooldown or the number/strength of the locusts. (oh and renaming them from locusts since that doesn't make sense for things that walk). I think it's a great idea that will have a massive impact on how Zerg plays. Being able to apply pressure to a turtling opponent is THE thing that Z are missing atm (until BLs at least, but that's too late). Plus you can't counter these things with vikings or snipe. If they leave their base to kill the swarm host, well, mission accomplished. Remember we'll have burrow move banelings to shaft opponents who don't have detection so we have even less need for the lurker. The only thing I would like them to change is to move the tech to the hydra den. Zerg already have all the reasons in the world to build an infestation pit. Moving Swarm hosts to the Hydra den would provide a reason to build it. Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield. That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-). marine - single target dps, fires really fast thor - aoe splash, fires really slow what are you comparing here? and what do melee attackers do to turtling opponents? terrans will build a bunker and laugh at those locusts. a pf will laugh even more on its own. every choke or ramp will laugh because the locusts are melee. you still need broods if you want to win... they have to change this unit a lot to even become somehow viable. | ||
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Maekchu
140 Posts
On October 31 2011 09:59 HughJorgen wrote: Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield. At the current stage a locust is a 80HP unit with a 15s up time. How would that be an effective meatshield? | ||
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Zeborg
107 Posts
On October 31 2011 04:23 Charon1979 wrote: If you absolutely crush a massive Zerg/Toss push, you got 2 options. Extend your eco game (take a new expansion) or go in and kill him. Zerg can only expand and wait till Boodlords are available. But the longer a games goes on and the longer T has time to "recover", the higher the chances that T can pull off some kind of comeback. (eg.: lucky drops, massive all in resulting in a basetrade,...) So Blizzard says that Z should get a option to end the game without waiting for Broods, because expanding isnt always the smartest idea. I had enough matches myself where i had 14k more than my opponent, but couldnt finish him off due to his extreme turteling. There are zergs out there who don't wait for broodlords against terran to just kill them (like stephano). for a turtling protoss yea it is kinda tough. | ||
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msjakofsky
1169 Posts
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
With just 2 of them, the opponent has to do something against them or they are screwed. Small number of gateway units move to clear the swarm hosts, fungaled by burrowed infestors. Few mm with a tank move to clear the swarm hosts, viper takes the tank. It's not a powerful unit but it's a unit that needs to be dealt with, and that is gonna give the zerg more options on how and where the fight will be. | ||
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D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
The concept of the unit seems...different, but the difference is not a beneficial one, if that makes any sense. Both Terran and Protoss' cloaked units are dangerous precisely because they can outright end the game if you have no detection or your detection arrives too late. At the very least it makes your opponent afraid to move out, giving you map control. The SH does not do this. Even when it's burrowed, there is no real urgency for you to immediately respond at all. Even when you know it's there...so what? Just run past it if you're making a serious push to his base...combine that with the fact that the locusts really aren't very dangerous. You kill one wave, and you won't be worrying about the next wave for quite some time. In the case of the lurker, it is a very credible threat which demands a response. If you're in a position where you simply cannot deal with the lurker, it's as gaming changing as a DT or banshee. Maybe if the SH spawned locusts which are air units? And attack ground and air? Not sure about the balance in this situation but it makes it instantly more much more dangerous. Siege tank/hellion can't do anything against the locusts, absolutely necessitating marines to at least force a stalemate or die to their own siege tank splash. | ||
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Maekchu
140 Posts
On October 31 2011 10:28 Steveling wrote: Don't think most of you realise how powerful this will be. With just 2 of them, the opponent has to do something against them or they are screwed. Small number of gateway units move to clear the swarm hosts, fungaled by burrowed infestors. Few mm with a tank move to clear the swarm hosts, viper takes the tank. It's not a powerful unit but it's a unit that needs to be dealt with, and that is gonna give the zerg more options on how and where the fight will be. 2 Swarm hosts would spawn together spawn 4 melee units every 25 seconds that have 80HP and deal 15damage. I'm sorry that I fail to see how this will put pressure on a sieged Terran with shredders... Or a P with some collosus defending. The players won't even have to micro anything since the locust will just run into their death. There might be a timing where this is strong. But, I don't think this window is that big, as well as, the efficiency of the SH will disappear extremely fast. It can't even be used to harass, since Mutas/dropped Infestors/dropped Banelings will be much better. Once the SH have spawned the units, the player will just a-move into them and force the Zerg player to back out. I cannot see how the SH in its current version would be much of a threat. Good, it's still in such an early stage, that we'll definitely see some changes made. | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
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HughJorgen
Australia37 Posts
On October 31 2011 10:04 fleeze wrote: marine - single target dps, fires really fast thor - aoe splash, fires really slow what are you comparing here? and what do melee attackers do to turtling opponents? terrans will build a bunker and laugh at those locusts. a pf will laugh even more on its own. every choke or ramp will laugh because the locusts are melee. you still need broods if you want to win... they have to change this unit a lot to even become somehow viable. Um, Broodlord - Flying, late game, super slow, creates low health low damage broodlings Swarm Host - Ground based, tier 2, burrows, creates high health high damage locusts I was saying that the Swarm Host was not redundant because of the Broodlord, in the same way that marines are not redundant because of the Thor. Saying that the Thor has a slower rate of fire than the marine does absolutely nothing to invalidate my point. Did you watch the video where the locusts were doing damage to the bunkers and siege tanks? The point is that they don't have to do much damage at all, because they're free. Even if they're killing like one unit every 15 seconds your opponent has to respond. Given that these are lair tech they won't be facing the level of turtling that broodlords have to face. That gives them an advantage. They might be melee attackers but depending on health and damage they'll do a much better job of pressuring than lings, banes or roach because it's cost effective. | ||
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uberism
Canada271 Posts
They will rape PFs, chokes and any other turtling antic you can think of. Just 10 swarm hosts and you will not be able to turtle guaranteed. These things do 20dmg fully upgraded at an insane attack speed and will regenerate as soon as the last batch dies. | ||
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D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
On October 31 2011 11:27 HughJorgen wrote: Um, Broodlord - Flying, late game, super slow, creates low health low damage broodlings Swarm Host - Ground based, tier 2, burrows, creates high health high damage locusts I was saying that the Swarm Host was not redundant because of the Broodlord, in the same way that marines are not redundant because of the Thor. Saying that the Thor has a slower rate of fire than the marine does absolutely nothing to invalidate my point. Did you watch the video where the locusts were doing damage to the bunkers and siege tanks? The point is that they don't have to do much damage at all, because they're free. Even if they're killing like one unit every 15 seconds your opponent has to respond. Given that these are lair tech they won't be facing the level of turtling that broodlords have to face. That gives them an advantage. They might be melee attackers but depending on health and damage they'll do a much better job of pressuring than lings, banes or roach because it's cost effective. OK but it really all comes down to two things: - how much HP those locusts really have - how much armor It appears that they can take a siege volley and not go down...but also when you look, the bunker died from the siege tank splash, not so much from the dps from the locusts... will probably need to see how these fare vs a photon cannon defense before we can judge. | ||
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HughJorgen
Australia37 Posts
On October 31 2011 10:05 Maekchu wrote: At the current stage a locust is a 80HP unit with a 15s up time. How would that be an effective meatshield? "That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-)" Can we stop talking about the exact times and stats on this thing? We haven't even started beta! If there is a set of stats that will make this unit work well then it's a good idea, we just have to find those stats. Tweaking health/damage/rof is the EASY bit. I'm saying I love the concept, I love the ability that this will (could) give zerg. You can always say 'blah it's too weak' to which I respond 'make it stronger'. | ||
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HughJorgen
Australia37 Posts
On October 31 2011 11:32 D_K_night wrote: OK but it really all comes down to two things: - how much HP those locusts really have - how much armor It appears that they can take a siege volley and not go down...but also when you look, the bunker died from the siege tank splash, not so much from the dps from the locusts... will probably need to see how these fare vs a photon cannon defense before we can judge. I agree 100%, the HP and armor stats will be critical. Too low and it will achieve nothing, too high and it will be unstoppable. But they're the easiest changes to make during the beta as long as the idea is sound. What I'm hearing a lot is 'just give us the lurker!' but I question how well that would work when Protoss have Collosi and Zerg don't have Dark Swarm. Blinding cloud is a terrible replacement for Dark Swarm with Lurkers because they can choose to move out of it. Are you then going to unburrow and chase them down? | ||
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Maekchu
140 Posts
On October 31 2011 11:35 HughJorgen wrote: "That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-)" Can we stop talking about the exact times and stats on this thing? We haven't even started beta! If there is a set of stats that will make this unit work well then it's a good idea, we just have to find those stats. Tweaking health/damage/rof is the EASY bit. I'm saying I love the concept, I love the ability that this will (could) give zerg. You can always say 'blah it's too weak' to which I respond 'make it stronger'. I just found it funny you suggest them as meatshields that's why I took up the numbers. But yeah, Blizzard can adjust the stats. But that doesn't change the fact, that I still disagree this is what the Zerg needs. I still believe Zerg needs an AoE projectile based siege unit. Having even more units to clump up a choke, is simply not what I think we need. | ||
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MrDudeMan
Canada973 Posts
On October 31 2011 11:45 Maekchu wrote: I just found it funny you suggest them as meatshields that's why I took up the numbers. But yeah, Blizzard can adjust the stats. But that doesn't change the fact, that I still disagree this is what the Zerg needs. I still believe Zerg needs an AoE projectile based siege unit. Having even more units to clump up a choke, is simply not what I think we need. I agree with this, but perhaps with the increased hydra speed and ultralisk burrow charge + viper there might be some compoistions that rely on locusts to act like zerglings. However I think as it stands now the unit will have sort of a similar problem that mutalisks have in ZvT. It will be strong mid game, and can definitely serve a purpose. However it will be harden to transition out of, as you will need at least 6 of them to do any damage, and throwing away 18 supply is never good. | ||
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