On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
I am worried that the locusts are going to die before they ever deal damage. I really like the hardened shield idea. The locusts could definitely use that to get in melee range. The locusts need something to make the Swarm Host less of a vanilla unit. We dont need another one trick pony aka: Hydralisk.
On October 24 2011 23:40 Gfire wrote: Introduction
I want to talk a little bit about the new unit they've shown for Heart of the Swarm, the Swarm Host.
This is the Swarm Host in action.
It's supposed to be the burrowed unit with an attack that we all wanted. I think this is great, but there are some things about it that concern me just a little.
It seems to me like the Swarm host is too much like other Zerg units. People have mentioned the Brood Lord. I think to some extent, the Brood Lord is pretty close to this in concept, but I thought of another unit: The Infestor.
The Infestor can burrow and launch Infested Terrans. Infested Terrans are a timed life unit, like the Locusts the Swarm Host launches.
The player can choose where to launch the Infested Terran as well, giving more control over it. You have the ability to launch one over a cliff or a building, whereas the Swarm Host will only be useful in an open area, because the Locusts (I assume) have to walk around everything.
You also get more control because you can choose when to build them and how many. The energy cost allows you to store up many and launch them all at once, or you can choose to use just enough to take out a dropship or something.
The Infested Terrans have a ranged attack so they can hit air as well as other units at a distance.
In addition, the Infestor can move while burrowed.
And we can't forget, the Infestor can unburrow and use some other very strong spells as well.
All in all, I think the Infestor just has much more utility as well as being able to do everything the Swarm Host does. It's not a very effective use of Infestor energy, so we don't see it in play.
So it's not like the two units (as well as the Brood Lord) can't exist side by side, because they can be used for different things, but I think it would be even better to change the attack of the Swarm Host in some way to make it less like the other units. More diversity would be more fun and interesting, good from a spectator perspective, etc.
I would say they're having a hard time balancing this unit between "Free Units = Too Strong" and "Low Damage Output=Too Weak."
I think this concept of throwing free units at the opponent works better on the Hive Tech units (Brood Lords,) because they can get away with having some ridiculous damage output as well.
With such long recharge time and low damage output, I don't really get the "swarm" feel I should. Dustin Browder says "Slow, methodical grind" but that doesn't seem to be consistent with "swarm" to me.
Obviously they will be adjusting all the numbers for balance, but I think adjusting it in a more extreme way, not just basic numbers, would be good.
I'm wondering if Locusts move faster on creep. Broodlings don't, but they hover off the ground. These guys look like they walk, so I would guess they do move faster on creep. That would be very interesting, it would make them stronger at defending than attacking.
I don't want to go into a lot of detail about the idea I had. It's just a way I thought in might make it better. Blizzard says they're open to suggestions, so since I did think of this, I guess I will post it on the bnet forums. I thought I'd share it here as well to see what everyone thought.
With the removal of the carrier, maybe it could be a little more carrier-like. The Locusts could be more locust-like, something like a melee Interceptor I guess.
They could fly out and stay until dying or the Swarm Host unburrows, and they could be replaces by an autospell like on the Carrier.
They should of course have a different flight pattern than interceptors, something less geometric, more swarm-like.
I guess there would be a maximum of 6, which is I think the number of holes on the back of the Swarm Host.
Whether or not you'd pay for them would depend. They could be free, and this would line up with the current Swarm Host (probably a good idea,) as well as make it less like the carrier. This is a lower tier unit, as well, and having them for free makes more sense. On the other hand, getting to dump some minerals here, where there is no larva cost, could be helpful. I'd probably make them stay free, though.
There are 2 easy ways to calm your (the OP's) concerns and leave the Swarm Host as it is:
#1 The Locust should not be auto-cast. You have to be there every 24 seconds (*or whatever) in order to create said locusts. Depending on how badly that would nerf the unit, the Locusts would either be able to be manual-cast more often and/or the Locusts would do more damage or have more armor or HP or blah.
Depending on a player's ee han timing the Swarm Hosts would be more and moreso effective at holding an area down with constant pressure. Of course the number of Swarm Hosts present, coupled with attentive micro (by always being there to launch that new Locust! this would also allow for the STOP LURKERS EFFECT w00t), would exponentially grow the effectiveness of the strategy.
OR (not both) if the opinion is that the unit sucks and it overlaps other units:
#2 to reference the Slow, Methodical, Grind (we all wish the Swarm Could truly be constant) - Let's imagine 4 Swarm Hosts. I move in with them. I burrow one, count to 3, burrow another, count to 3, etc etc. Now, I'm not math genius, nor do I know any math at all, but that would create a locust every 6 Blizzard seconds. (I hope I'm right - otherwise how embarrassing...)
Then, can't we imagine a emerging setup / strategy whereas the Swarm Hosts are never meant to fire all at once, but depending on how many enemy units there are, they are all meant to be firing independently and in a mechanical, constant manner. This strat I believe would indeed help the Zerg hold a section of the map, either right before, right after, or even during the sometime intermittent waves of The Swarm.
Of course the number of Swarm Hosts present, coupled with attentive micro (by taking notice of the timings so that staggering the attacks is more effective), would exponentially grow the effectiveness of the strategy. The more SH, the more constant The Swarm can be.
ya? (I don't like the other idea about the cloak ground carriers) I don't think this overlaps with Infested Terrans. I don't think this overlaps with Broodlings.
edit: typo
This post got lost. I hope to try to bring attention to it. In this forum, the above post is the first post to mention staggered attacks. I also go through one other suggestion for the unit's use. Since I posted this, others have started talking about staggering units but without homage. What I intend to to by reposting this is bring attention to these 2 ideas as far as responses go to what the OP's post originally said. It would make me so happy if the OP would read and respond :0
The SH has a huge chance to be the MOST brood war-y unit we have considering it's timing (if it's manual cast) or if using the stagger burrow technique (both require focus moreso than most current WoL unit combos).
It's supposed to be the burrowed unit with an attack that we all wanted. I think this is great, but there are some things about it that concern me just a little.
It seems to me like the Swarm host is too much like other Zerg units. People have mentioned the Brood Lord. I think to some extent, the Brood Lord is pretty close to this in concept, but I thought of another unit: The Infestor.
The Infestor can burrow and launch Infested Terrans. Infested Terrans are a timed life unit, like the Locusts the Swarm Host launches.
The player can choose where to launch the Infested Terran as well, giving more control over it. You have the ability to launch one over a cliff or a building, whereas the Swarm Host will only be useful in an open area, because the Locusts (I assume) have to walk around everything.
You also get more control because you can choose when to build them and how many. The energy cost allows you to store up many and launch them all at once, or you can choose to use just enough to take out a dropship or something.
The Infested Terrans have a ranged attack so they can hit air as well as other units at a distance.
In addition, the Infestor can move while burrowed.
And we can't forget, the Infestor can unburrow and use some other very strong spells as well.
All in all, I think the Infestor just has much more utility as well as being able to do everything the Swarm Host does. It's not a very effective use of Infestor energy, so we don't see it in play.
So it's not like the two units (as well as the Brood Lord) can't exist side by side, because they can be used for different things, but I think it would be even better to change the attack of the Swarm Host in some way to make it less like the other units. More diversity would be more fun and interesting, good from a spectator perspective, etc.
I would say they're having a hard time balancing this unit between "Free Units = Too Strong" and "Low Damage Output=Too Weak."
I think this concept of throwing free units at the opponent works better on the Hive Tech units (Brood Lords,) because they can get away with having some ridiculous damage output as well.
With such long recharge time and low damage output, I don't really get the "swarm" feel I should. Dustin Browder says "Slow, methodical grind" but that doesn't seem to be consistent with "swarm" to me.
Obviously they will be adjusting all the numbers for balance, but I think adjusting it in a more extreme way, not just basic numbers, would be good.
I'm wondering if Locusts move faster on creep. Broodlings don't, but they hover off the ground. These guys look like they walk, so I would guess they do move faster on creep. That would be very interesting, it would make them stronger at defending than attacking.
I don't want to go into a lot of detail about the idea I had. It's just a way I thought in might make it better. Blizzard says they're open to suggestions, so since I did think of this, I guess I will post it on the bnet forums. I thought I'd share it here as well to see what everyone thought.
With the removal of the carrier, maybe it could be a little more carrier-like. The Locusts could be more locust-like, something like a melee Interceptor I guess.
They could fly out and stay until dying or the Swarm Host unburrows, and they could be replaces by an autospell like on the Carrier.
They should of course have a different flight pattern than interceptors, something less geometric, more swarm-like.
I guess there would be a maximum of 6, which is I think the number of holes on the back of the Swarm Host.
Whether or not you'd pay for them would depend. They could be free, and this would line up with the current Swarm Host (probably a good idea,) as well as make it less like the carrier. This is a lower tier unit, as well, and having them for free makes more sense. On the other hand, getting to dump some minerals here, where there is no larva cost, could be helpful. I'd probably make them stay free, though.
There are 2 easy ways to calm your (the OP's) concerns and leave the Swarm Host as it is:
#1 The Locust should not be auto-cast. You have to be there every 24 seconds (*or whatever) in order to create said locusts. Depending on how badly that would nerf the unit, the Locusts would either be able to be manual-cast more often and/or the Locusts would do more damage or have more armor or HP or blah.
Depending on a player's ee han timing the Swarm Hosts would be more and moreso effective at holding an area down with constant pressure. Of course the number of Swarm Hosts present, coupled with attentive micro (by always being there to launch that new Locust! this would also allow for the STOP LURKERS EFFECT w00t), would exponentially grow the effectiveness of the strategy.
OR (not both) if the opinion is that the unit sucks and it overlaps other units:
#2 to reference the Slow, Methodical, Grind (we all wish the Swarm Could truly be constant) - Let's imagine 4 Swarm Hosts. I move in with them. I burrow one, count to 3, burrow another, count to 3, etc etc. Now, I'm not math genius, nor do I know any math at all, but that would create a locust every 6 Blizzard seconds. (I hope I'm right - otherwise how embarrassing...)
Then, can't we imagine a emerging setup / strategy whereas the Swarm Hosts are never meant to fire all at once, but depending on how many enemy units there are, they are all meant to be firing independently and in a mechanical, constant manner. This strat I believe would indeed help the Zerg hold a section of the map, either right before, right after, or even during the sometime intermittent waves of The Swarm.
Of course the number of Swarm Hosts present, coupled with attentive micro (by taking notice of the timings so that staggering the attacks is more effective), would exponentially grow the effectiveness of the strategy. The more SH, the more constant The Swarm can be.
ya? (I don't like the other idea about the cloak ground carriers) I don't think this overlaps with Infested Terrans. I don't think this overlaps with Broodlings.
edit: typo
This post got lost. I hope to try to bring attention to it. In this forum, the above post is the first post to mention staggered attacks. I also go through one other suggestion for the unit's use. Since I posted this, others have started talking about staggering units but without homage. What I intend to to by reposting this is bring attention to these 2 ideas as far as responses go to what the OP's post originally said. It would make me so happy if the OP would read and respond :0
The SH has a huge chance to be the MOST brood war-y unit we have considering it's timing (if it's manual cast) or if using the stagger burrow technique (both require focus moreso than most current WoL unit combos).
Wouldn't burrowing all at once be worse than all of them coming out at the same time? Like nexus wars, and those kinds of maps. You want to sync them up because it's stronger if they are together. If you stagger then the opponent's units will have an easy time dealing them a small trickle of units, they won't even be a problem. But of course you also have the downtime where the opponent goes, so in some cases it would be good to stagger.
I definitely think it should be autocast, though. I think if you're trying to set a unit up and have it control some space, you shouldn't have to babysit it that much. More importantly, it's not a spellcaster, it's an attacking unit. It shouldn't have it's only attack be a manual spell.
I don't really like my carrier idea much, either.
I definitely think this unit, as-is (or with some number adjustments) can have a fine place in the game. I just thought the role could potentially be played by a slightly more interesting unit... Less like the other units in terms of being interesting, not actually having a different role. It's more like it's a similar ability filling a different role rather than a different ability filling the same role, which is probably how the OP got interpreted by most.
why can't the locusts: have less health spawn faster and hop like grasshoppers? i would think it would make them more effective (less tank fire) but marines can still clean them up. plus, (and this is a big plus) they could be used with the main zerg army since they won't be competing for surface area like broodlings do.
On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
there are 6 tanks, and it was able to kill bunkers despite being shell by tank fire and marines firing
It wouldn't make any sense for the swarm host to overcome and completely break the tank line in a wave
On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
there are 6 tanks, and it was able to kill bunkers despite being shell by tank fire and marines firing
It wouldn't make any sense for the swarm host to overcome and completely break the tank line in a wave
Actually there are only 3 tanks. The other 3 are spread out so far that they dont shoot until the locusts already reached the bunker (they actually siege their own bunkers down), which basically means that you would need 9 Swarmhosts to actually have some locusts reach 3 tanks.
No terran has tanks sitting around on their own, tanks are always supported by marines. If you already need 9 swarmhosts in order to actually reach 3 tanks (in order to do zero damage on their own, because frankly they immediately get killed, the most damage comes from friendly splash) then i dont see the point in the swarm host.
As you said, they shouldnt be able to overcome and break defensive lines, that would be way too OP from infinite range, but apparently blizzard decided that that should be their role otherwise i dont understand why they would show us that scenario in the demonstration video.
Swarm hosts defensive capabilities are almost non existant, so its either that they work against defensive lines (doesnt matter how much damage they do as long as they do some) or they dont work against defensive lines (they dont do any damage and die before they reach the enemy). They either force a retreat (which is OP considering these units are free and have much more range than tanks), or they dont force anything because they die too fast, which makes them UP.
A unit that is either OP or UP, that is bad game design right there. Whats wrong with the lurker? There are no either OP or UP shenanigans. Lurkers can hold a position, their role is obvious and they can be good at their role without it being OP like in the swarm hosts roles case.
On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
there are 6 tanks, and it was able to kill bunkers despite being shell by tank fire and marines firing
It wouldn't make any sense for the swarm host to overcome and completely break the tank line in a wave
A unit that is either OP or UP, that is bad game design right there. Whats wrong with the lurker? There are no either OP or UP shenanigans. Lurkers can hold a position, their role is obvious and they can be good at their role without it being OP like in the swarm hosts roles case.
Lurker is already planned for HotS, it's just not for zerg and it's called shredder. It also 3x stronger and hits air.
I am not sure why they can't add area control unit for zerg (when it's abviously very needed here), but they add such unit for terran who is already pretty much invincible with PFs, tanks and bunkers.
In order to analyze the Host Swarmer, as well as some issues that aren't covered by any changes, I first need to outline some of zerg's fundamental weaknesses, most of which were covered in the developer panel, and some of which were not.
1) Very difficult to press an advantage in the midgame. Dustin Browder touched on this in the developer panel. He noted that zerg really only has one option going into the midgame with an advantage, expand. The problem with this is that expanding when you already have an advantage doesn't help all that much, in fact it can give your opponent time to catch back up. The reason this issue exists is because zerg lacks a siege unit at lair tech. Blizzard's solution in hots was to give zerg a siege unit in the form of the Host Swarmer.
2) Lack of space controlling units. Space controlling units, such as siege tanks and the new shredders are units that don't play well in a big ball, but are good at holding a decent amount of space against small forces. A good example of a space controlling unit is the siege tank. In HotS blizzard is trying to help all the races with space control through the use of shredders, recall on nexus, and host swarmers. Unfortunately after playing around with host swarmers a bit I really don't see them filling this role very well.
3) Poor anti air. Zerg t1-1.5 anti air is non existent, and hydras aren't really all that great offensively until hive tech. I'll just say this now, dealing with oracles is going to be a huge pain in the !@# for zerg at hatch tech. If an oracle or two zip in, block all your minerals and leave repeatedly, you are going to be in for a world of hurt. This is one point that I felt was left out in the panel discussion.
4) No 1 supply unit. Zerg is supposed to have a swarmy feel to it. Browder hinted that he thinks host swarmers continuous unit production will add to this aspect of Zerg. However, I'm not so certain. In WoL it feels like terran is almost swarmier than zerg. The mass marine builds are very swarm-esq. When playing against them it feels like you are trying to beat back wave after wave of never ending units. After you kill off one group there is another group knocking at your door. I really think that zerg should have that kind of feel to it. The host swarmer contributes to this role, but I still think that it would be better to have a solid 1 supply unit like in BW.
5) Lack of ranged units. This issue is what causes zergs to complain every time Blizzard showcases new 1v1 maps. You can't abuse cliffs or chokes with melee units, it just doesn't work. Short range units also are very bad at dealing with things like sige tanks on the low ground covering marines being elevated into your base. For this issue I feel like the host swarmer really hurts zerg. Locusts will just take up more of the short supply of melee surface area. Melee units scale very poorly with large numbers, and host swarmers are just going to make that situation worse. Swarm race is one thing, cluster $%^- race is very much another. The viper spells help a bit with this one, but I still forsee problems.
6) Lack of ranged AoE. This is another big issue that is evidenced in WoL, and is also one of the biggest issues with the Infestor. When WoL launched zerg had several big design flaws, mainly the lack of mid-game anti-armor, and the lack of a ranged aoe unit. Both of these niches are incredibly important, which is why Blizzard eventually decided to give both of those roles to the anti-massive, and cloaked attacking unit, the infestor. The infestor now fills waaay to many roles, which makes it good against everything, and is why blizzard recently decided to nerf fungal and NP. I was really hoping for a ranged AoE unit in HotS so that the infestor could go back to its original role as an anti-massive / support unit, instead of a primary damage dealer. Ranged aoe is also very desirable for space control.
The new HotS units solve some of these issues, but completely ignore or exacerbate others. The biggest issue that I see is that Hots adds another melee unit to an already low range / melee heavy race. Host Swarmers also are far too similar to Broodlords, I mean they basically are broodlords that can't fly, and can't get their broodlings right to the fight. I'd much rather see a lurker-like unit that has a long range aoe attack as a siege unit. The free units are great and all, but I think that balancing this unit will be rather tough and I also think that it is too similar to the Broodlord. In general I think that a ranged AoE unit would have been a much better addition.
I think that the simplest solution set would be the following: 1) Cut the Host Swarmer, it is too much like the Broodlord. 2) Swap Hydra and Roach tech, cut hydra dps in half, make them 1 supply. (range upgrade at lair, speed upgrade at hive) Swap roach and hydra cost. 3) Introduce a t2-t2.5 ranged aoe siege unit (aka lurker or something new) 4) Buff roachs to justify their new cost. (100/50). Maybe up their dps by 25% and give them 1 more armor. (make them a tanking unit) 5) Revert Fungal back to 8 seconds, no more bonus damage to armored, revert NP range nerf.
On October 26 2011 22:25 BritWrangler wrote: How the hell can it be redundant when the game hasn't even been released yet? Give blizzard time to make changes and it may well be very useful.
how about you just don't talk if you have nothing to add to the discussion? we are discussing the CURRENT design as it was just presented at blizzcon... we're giving the feedback blizzard ASKED FOR. and the current design has many flaws. read the excellent post of Klystron, just 2 post above your crap and another dumb poster and maybe you can add something actually useful instead of "trust in blizzard"... it's disgusting to read shitty posts like this after an excellent analysis that is well worth discussing...
on topic: i totally agree with Klystron especially the point that swarm hosts suck at cliffs with their melee spawns really shows how much blizzard contradicts their own intended design of a space controlling unit. a single cliff will render the swarm hosts useless as the melee locusts will have to walk up and down and take a looooong route to get there if they don't expire before they reach their target.
I think the problem is that the swarm host is seen as a contain unit, but it can be used like a siege tank on a defensive position with infestors, wouldn't it be great if you can lock your enemies with fungal growth and send them locusts and zerglings or wtv to finish them off?
Another thing is the similarity between this unit and the broodlord. To be honest, I believe it's too early to say that they work the same way. The broodlord is a flying slow unit whereas the SH is, and probably will be, relatively fast (and, of course, faster on creep). Thus, it's a bit harder to kill them, like in the video of the OP, if the T decides to unsiege and siege back a bit closer to the SH, a Z can unborrow away of the siege tank's range.
The SH must be used in conjunction with other units, like the infestor, the Viper (HoTs - for the acid cloud ability, this will help locusts survive longer), etc.
I'd have to agree with the OP on this. It seems very fundamentally similar to the Brood Lord, and even the Infestor's spawn Infested Terran abilitiy, to a lesser degree. Fundamentally, the Host appears to be flawed in that your Locusts are going to just get blasted by Siege Tanks before they can even get into position to do any damage. It also appears that there is really nothing stopping a Terran from waiting until the insanely long cooldown on the spawning is up, running in with a few Marines or god forbid, Mauraders, and just cleaning them up under the cover of tank fire.
I really don't know. I don't main Zerg, but we will have to wait and see. I think that Blizzard has at least acknolwedged the races major problems as it stands and is trying to resolve them, however, it seems like they have a very specific theme in mind for these units, which may limit their potential effectiveness/design, as we have seen here with the Swarm host.
On October 26 2011 22:25 BritWrangler wrote: How the hell can it be redundant when the game hasn't even been released yet? Give blizzard time to make changes and it may well be very useful.
Look at the unit, look at how it works. It is quite literally a ground based Brood Lord.
What does the BL do? It spawns a continuous stream of free melee units.
What does the Swarm Host do? It spawns a continuous stream of free melee units.
Its the exact same concept. Sure it is still a decent unit, it is like getting Brood Lords without having to wait for Hive and Greater Spire.
So basically Zerg has 2 units that do exactly the same thing. The only difference is that one is a bit cheaper and quicker to tech to, and the other is a bit better.
Doesnt this unit add problem to deathballs? The original problem of ultras before charge/burrow was that they were blocked by units. Now the locusts will just block some other units
On October 25 2011 06:26 SpaceYeti wrote: I don't understand why we can't just have the lurker back...
Stop Swarm Host < Stop Lurker Swarm Host drops < Lurker Drops Swarm Host zone control < Lurker zone control
I don't think the Swarm Host looks very good at controlling space at all. I just see these dying to enemy fire before they even reach their target. And why would I ever use swarm hosts vs siege tanks if I have Blinding Cloud?
Not excited about this unit at all.
I miss my lurkers. I'd even be okay with them removing burrow from banes if i could just have my lurkers back.
Terran ball of 8 marauders with medivacs + scan will roflroll your 6 lurkers so hard it won't be funny. Protoss death ball with 4 Colossi + observer will roll your 12 lurkers.
Have fun with lurkers.
And swarm hosts wont die even faster without doing any actual damage? At least the lurker's damage was direct and front loaded, and splash. I also disagree that a Terran bio ball would ""roflroll" 6 stop lurkers.
The protoss deathball is another matter entirely, but there are other solutions to that problem.
Lurker + Infestor would also be sickly awesome to watch.
EDIT: The point above about terrain features such as cliffs is also spot-on. Another reason why Blizzard should just give us the Lurker instead of trying to disguise it as something else that is far shittier.
On October 25 2011 06:26 SpaceYeti wrote: I don't understand why we can't just have the lurker back...
Stop Swarm Host < Stop Lurker Swarm Host drops < Lurker Drops Swarm Host zone control < Lurker zone control
I don't think the Swarm Host looks very good at controlling space at all. I just see these dying to enemy fire before they even reach their target. And why would I ever use swarm hosts vs siege tanks if I have Blinding Cloud?
Not excited about this unit at all.
I miss my lurkers. I'd even be okay with them removing burrow from banes if i could just have my lurkers back.
Terran ball of 8 marauders with medivacs + scan will roflroll your 6 lurkers so hard it won't be funny. Protoss death ball with 4 Colossi + observer will roll your 12 lurkers.
Have fun with lurkers.
And swarm hosts wont die even faster without doing any actual damage? At least the lurker's damage was direct and front loaded, and splash. I also disagree that a Terran bio ball would ""roflroll" 6 stop lurkers.
The protoss deathball is another matter entirely, but there are other solutions to that problem.
Lurker + Infestor would also be sickly awesome to watch.
EDIT: The point above about terrain features such as cliffs is also spot-on. Another reason why Blizzard should just give us the Lurker instead of trying to disguise it as something else that is far shittier.
I just think comparing the swarm host to the lurker in itself is pointless; they're two completely different rolls in the zerg swarm. The lurker was made for zone control, and the swarm host was made for methodical pressure on territories. The only real similarity is that they attack while burrowed.
I guess one other way to put it is: The swarm host is defensively aggressive, it isn't mobile but it directly pressures positions. The lurker is aggressively defensive, it is mobile zone control.
Personally, I'd like to see the swarm host changed to the latter, something like the lurker but doesn't necessarily have to deal splash damage. I have a feeling Blizzard misunderstood zergs when we cried out for a siege unit. We don't need a unit that can pressure ground positions from a safe distance, we have brood lords for that. What we need is siege in the sense that it takes the map control we have and puts strength behind it.
EPT
I'd even be okay with them removing burrow from banes if i could just have my lurkers back.
