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On October 26 2011 05:31 Rotodyne wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 05:28 iky43210 wrote:On October 26 2011 04:59 Alpina wrote:On October 26 2011 04:55 usethis2 wrote:On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote:
I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl. exactly, sc2 is a game where attacking with few units into a lot of units means you do no damage. In video the only reason why bunkers died is because tanks done all the damage. Doesn't friendly fire only deals 30% of the damage? In that case, 2 round of 6 tanks wave is 180 dmg friendly fire and 220 dmg from locust (not including the dead marines). And does it really matter if the damage is from friendly fire or locus? In either case, the point of the unit is achieved No, because lots of armies don't have friendly fire
good thing the only viable way to play TvZ is siegetank/x then.
Just like siege tanks are awful against protoss, it should be alright for zerg too.
It's still a good unit, the locust spawn does ridiculous amount of dps and is pretty bulky. Those numbers can even be tweak to make it better, but really don't expect it to go any higher than currently. Zerg at its current macro mechanics will be too ridiculously good if they have a high power siege unit that prevents early and mid game pressure from terran and protoss
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I Think the design and use for the unit is all good, all the other things can be adjusted for balance as long as the principle of the unit is a good one.
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Frankly I'm disappointed with the Swarm Host. I wanted zerg to get a stealth unit that could attack while stealthed. I also wanted another unit with long range. I wanted a unit that could deal ranged splash damage. This is not that unit. In fact this unit has none of these because its attack can be killed before it does damage.
I think a couple things would fix this unit for me.
1. Make the Locusts burrow move to their target.
2. Make the Locusts fly like the concept art.
3. Make the Locusts jump(charge) like the zergling campaign upgrade.
4. Make the Swarm Host spawn 2 units every 15 seconds (like it is now) if the Locusts are killed before the 24 second timer it resets the cooldown.
5. Make the Swarm Host shoot the locusts long range. (possibly impact AoE)
Which ideas do you like the best?
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this thing looks good, dunno why theres so much hate for it...
1) its t2, so dont compare it with broodlords
2) you can constantly tackle a pushing terran without using units, thereby finding the best timing to commit with all your forces, forcing a slower push, possibly a stim and or friendly fire from the tanks
3) offensively you can do basically the same... push up a ramp without a worry fe
simply speaking, while this unit does not seem overwhelming, it allows zerg to be cost effective to a certain degree, before that, lings and roaches went down the drain left and right...
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The big question is the tech cost. If there is no tech cost I can see it used a lot to replace using zerglings in suicide roles like poking at the enemy to scout unit composition, some levels of harassment and of course general combat (now with more dps per unit surface area). It of course wouldn't replace other units in cases where mobility/burst hp/damage is critical, but they'd work wonders in small skirmishes.
If there is a significant tech cost then it may be mainly used in specialized strategies built around tight timings.
The combat use of the unit in mass is either as a damage sponge for ranged units (like zealot-dragoon mech-line break in sc1 TvP where goons back off after zealots die) or as a persistent harassment unit on simcities with high hp buildings but very little dps output.
This unit would not work anywhere close to a lurkers (i mean burrow walk banelings....) and is more of a grinding unit then anything.
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Another problem i see with the swarm host is that you cant really use it well with other units.
Other siege units work well with other units supporting them, like Colossus or Tanks, because they can shoot from behind them.
You can place units in front of your tanks/colossus in order to keep them safe from enemy units, while they siege your opponent.
How exactly would that work with the swarm host? You put units in front of the swarm host in order to defend them against enemy units (because lets face it, if they are undefended they will get stim marine killed in a matter of seconds) and by doing that you prevent them from using their "siege" ability.
The locusts are slow moving melee units, how exactly are they supposed to siege through your own units without pathing an absolutely horrible way and probably get stuck in your own army.
I cant believe how garbage the Swarm host sounds.
Their pride is just too big to just reintroduce the lurker i guess.
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On October 26 2011 04:55 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote:
I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off.
You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race.
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On October 26 2011 07:39 SkimGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:55 usethis2 wrote:On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote:
I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl. Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off. You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race.
add to that the viper blinding cloud and you have a very potent army as you charge the siege line 
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On October 26 2011 07:39 SkimGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:55 usethis2 wrote:On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote:
I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl. Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off. You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race.
And how many swarm hosts do you use in conjunction with ling/bling/muta in order to draw tank fire?
2 swarm hosts? 4? Frankly i dont see 4-8 locusts do anything at all, they will just get killed in a blink of an eye, even before they get into a position where they could assists your ling/bling/muta.
Thats probably the reason why they used like 8 swarm hosts in their demonstration video instead of like 4, because it wouldve looked retarded how fast the locusts go down.
If you use 8 swarm host to support your ling/bling/muta, thats 32 supply.
I would rather build 64 lings to support my ling/bling/muta than 8 swarm hosts.
They are useless as far as i am concerned.
On October 26 2011 07:44 Oathmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 07:39 SkimGuy wrote:On October 26 2011 04:55 usethis2 wrote:On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote:
I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl. Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off. You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race. add to that the viper blinding cloud and you have a very potent army as you charge the siege line
Whats wrong with just going ling/bling/muta/viper?
Sounds like a much stronger composition (and supply efficient at that) than if you added a swarm host to it.
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On October 26 2011 07:39 SkimGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 04:55 usethis2 wrote:On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote:
I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl. Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off. You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race.
The viper can already remove tank fire, and it doesn't require the infestation pit like the swarm host does. The swarm host is good against tanks, and that is pretty much it.
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On October 26 2011 07:45 gh0un wrote:
Thats probably the reason why they used like 8 swarm hosts in their demonstration video instead of like 4, because it wouldve looked retarded how fast the locusts go down.
I think the swarm host is too underwhelming for this reason, you need quite a lot to be truly effective, cutting into the real meat of the army.
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On October 26 2011 07:45 gh0un wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 07:39 SkimGuy wrote:On October 26 2011 04:55 usethis2 wrote:On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote:
I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl. Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off. You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race. And how many swarm hosts do you use in conjunction with ling/bling/muta in order to draw tank fire? 2 swarm hosts? 4? Frankly i dont see 4-8 locusts do anything at all, they will just get killed in a blink of an eye, even before they get into a position where they could assists your ling/bling/muta. Thats probably the reason why they used like 8 swarm hosts in their demonstration video instead of like 4, because it wouldve looked retarded how fast the locusts go down. If you use 8 swarm host to support your ling/bling/muta, thats 32 supply. I would rather build 64 lings to support my ling/bling/muta than 8 swarm hosts. They are useless as far as i am concerned. Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 07:44 Oathmaster wrote:On October 26 2011 07:39 SkimGuy wrote:On October 26 2011 04:55 usethis2 wrote:On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote:
I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl. Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off. You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race. add to that the viper blinding cloud and you have a very potent army as you charge the siege line Whats wrong with just going ling/bling/muta/viper? Sounds like a much stronger composition (and supply efficient at that) than if you added a swarm host to it.
furthermore all the lings will have surrounded everything and there is nothing for the locusts to do except blowing up because their lives expire!
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stop worrying about it till youve given it a solid play test
im excited about this unit as it seems like it will have a lot of creative uses
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
The idea of how the unit works is good, but the build they showed at Blizzcon was terrible, which is kinda funny because everyone other unit displayed looks like it needed a nerf (shredder cough cough). If they toughen the unit up, stagger the spawning, and/or increase the spawn rate, then the unit could be useful.
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Out of the new units this is perhaps my least favorite. Not only is it a clunky unit, but once again we see more overlap between the units and the CD is a result of the 90hp per spawn (unnecessary and you aren't really letting the players micro/maneuverability shine).
One thing is certain; we're going to see this unit tweaked beyond belief.
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On October 26 2011 07:45 gh0un wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 07:39 SkimGuy wrote:On October 26 2011 04:55 usethis2 wrote:On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote:
I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl. Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off. You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race. And how many swarm hosts do you use in conjunction with ling/bling/muta in order to draw tank fire? 2 swarm hosts? 4? Frankly i dont see 4-8 locusts do anything at all, they will just get killed in a blink of an eye, even before they get into a position where they could assists your ling/bling/muta. Thats probably the reason why they used like 8 swarm hosts in their demonstration video instead of like 4, because it wouldve looked retarded how fast the locusts go down. If you use 8 swarm host to support your ling/bling/muta, thats 32 supply. I would rather build 64 lings to support my ling/bling/muta than 8 swarm hosts. They are useless as far as i am concerned. Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 07:44 Oathmaster wrote:On October 26 2011 07:39 SkimGuy wrote:On October 26 2011 04:55 usethis2 wrote:On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote:
I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl. Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off. You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race. add to that the viper blinding cloud and you have a very potent army as you charge the siege line Whats wrong with just going ling/bling/muta/viper? Sounds like a much stronger composition (and supply efficient at that) than if you added a swarm host to it.
this. why do people bring up the viper combo with swarm hosts? why would you do that as a zerg? you would just build lings and viper. there is absolutely no reason to build a swarm host. they are slower to get, need additional tech, cost gas, have a ramp up time, the locusts are slower than speedlings and the use besides this scenario is limited compared to zerglings for the same cost.
and this was stated several times before in this thread already.
it will also be really hard to balance them for the role blizzard gave them. they will be either too good or just suck. and this is also no news in this thread.
edit: to add something possibly new.
if you get t2 and have an infestation pit why should you ever build a swarm host instead of an infestor?
if you want a burrowed unit to harass mineral lines you build.... an infestor as infested terran do the same to workers (additionally they are ranged)
if you need AOE you build infestors, no question.
if there is a tank / marine army knocking at your door, you will want to have a viper anyway so the infestor is great to accompany it and root the units inside the disruption web.
in which cases does a zerg really need this unit?
i could imagin the zerg being larvae starved so not enough eggs for lings. even then i find it questionable that swarm hosts will turn the tides in zergs favor.
edit2:
On October 26 2011 08:17 Bactrian wrote:
Don't see why everyone is complaining about overlap, it's obviously anti siege tank, and no other T2 unit has that role except possibly mutalisk.
the viper................
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Don't see why everyone is complaining about overlap, it's obviously anti siege tank, and no other T2 unit has that role except possibly mutalisk.
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If you use 8 swarm host to support your ling/bling/muta, thats 32 supply.
I would rather build 64 lings to support my ling/bling/muta than 8 swarm hosts.
They are useless as far as i am concerned.
Surface area. Swarm host locus is about 3 times strong then a Zergling and if you are short on surface area it can be useful. 8*2*3 = 48 zergling worth of combat power at only while taking up only 16 zergling worth of space. Its worst then 64 lings, yes, but not that much worst.
Repetition: While throwing all 64 zerglings to break the opponent is more powerful, they can only be used once. For certain operations a persistent stream works just fine. For example you can kill scv in PF protected mineral lines, break down wall in backed by light ranged dps, or constant attrition against enemy melee range fighters and lightly defended areas at no cost to yourself. You are getting something like 150minerals worth of combat power (3x2*25 minerals) percycle and after ~4 cycles it unit would have paid itself if used as a simple replacement to zerglings.
I don't really see it as a primarily a "push break" option as much as persistent cheap harass unit that can be repurposed for push breaking. Against opponents with insufficient ranged dps to kill them all before they do damage, they'd be very annoying indeed, and your ideal attack position is usually NOT where the deathblob resides, but where the other guy thinks a tank on high ground is sufficient to defend his workers or buildings.
In terms of use, I'd expect it to be somewhere around a reaper, guardian or SC1 queen in terms of general usefulness.
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The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
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On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
well those uses are really lame and not needed. just spread your lings for vision...
the other thing is they will be really hard to be balanced since blizzard obviously means they should be used against tanks.
an imbalanced buff that would make them viable against tanks would be something like hardened shields. but that would make them totally OP if massed.
another totally different approach: make them like thors or mothership. you can only have 1. then buff this thing to be a REAL swarm host.
well i got 1 scenario where they COULD be useful but it heavily depends on the unit they are good to combo with: HYDRAS.
IF blizzard manages to make hydras with increased speed and perhaps other buffs viable versus terrans. the locusts would be good tanks for them.
still in their current state hydras melt to siege tanks and it would need a big meta game shift to see hydras in ZvT. but maybe something like swarm host/infestor/hydra will be a viable army comp.
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EPT
